The Dueling OSU Narratives on the Board
So I see a bunch of griping / trolling on the board about how we can't and won't beat OSU or compete for championships because
1) They get all these 4 and 5 star recruits and simply out-talent us and
2) Urban Meyer is a genius college coach and his system is amazing and he is more accomplished than Harbaugh, etc, etc
The echo chamber on the recruiting front has gotten even louder this year, due to what appears to be an underwhelming incoming class (based on the sites/starz) and another apparently top 3 incoming class for OSU. IE, I think the recency bias of this particular class is blinding people a bit regarding actual talent levels on the respective teams.
So my question for the board is, which narrative is true - because Meyer is either underachieving at OSU (I know- heresy to have such a thought), or the "talent gap" is simply not what the recruitniks would like to believe.
Nobody here is in to moral victories, but the facts, since Harbaugh took over, are that
While UM is a brutal 0-3 against OSU....
In year 1 they were clearly out-classed all over the field by a team many considered the best in college football, despite a fluke loss to MSU in the rain. There was a clear talent gap, but hard to put it all on Harbaugh, given he only had 12 months to develop those players.
Harbaugh year 2, it would be fair to say that UM outplayed OSU for most of the game despite having an injured QB and horrible officiating going against them.
Harbaugh year 3, UM has a chance to win the game on a final drive, starting their 3rd string QB and playing underclassmen all over the field after having 8 players drafted to the NFL from the prior year.
Don't shoot me for not doing all the advanced analytics, but since taking over, UM under Harbaugh has only been completely out classed in 2 games. OSU 2015 and PSU 2017 (revenge game under the lights)
Meyer, with despite a 2 year head start at OSU, has been blown out by Oklahoma and Iowa this year, and the Clemson playoff debacle last year. It would seem to me that if this "talent gap" is as wide as the recruitniks are preaching, we'd have to say Meyer is underachieving with all these top rated classes - given they have just 1 B1G title in the past 3 years. They should be dominating at BAMA levels.... Or
The "talent gap" as evidenced by the games on the field (both head to head and vs. similar competition) just isn't what some here keep preaching.
This isn't meant to be a snarky post, just curious as to which narrative will continue to be pushed, because either 1) Meyer is underachieving despite absurd talent and resources at his disposal (a narrative I see a lot of Bucknuts pushing) or 2) The "talent gap" just isn't there and we've had some bad breaks the past couple years in terms of officiating and injuries at the QB position.
For the record, I think OSU has underachieved a bit the past few years but Meyer is still clearly one of the top coaches in college football. Regarding UM, we've been incredibly unlucky in a few big games (MSU 2015 and OSU 2016) come to mind first, and the "talent gap" just isn't what many on here keep claiming.
December 21st, 2017 at 7:16 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 3:41 PM ^
Did you see Speight versus Purdue? 11-1 lol
December 21st, 2017 at 3:55 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 4:18 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 5:36 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 8:49 PM ^
Here since 2013, I hate Michigan State with a passion of a thousand suns, but because im not deluded and recognize Dantonio as a helluva a coach who's owned us, i am a Sparty troll
11-1 with Speight though. LOL
December 21st, 2017 at 7:18 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 3:29 PM ^
I recall most picking us to go 8-4/9-3 this season, considering the player turn over and youth.
December 21st, 2017 at 3:51 PM ^
Most people on the mgoboard did not pick Michigan to go 8-4 or 9-3. Some people did. Not most. Most people here picked at least 10 wins.
Here is the thread post-spring game prediction thread.
There's a lot of embarrassment and bravado in there.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:07 PM ^
I should have been more clear... Most college football analysts picked us to go 8-4 or 9-3.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:23 PM ^
Is that based on Michigan's preseason ranking of #9 in the Coaches' poll or #11 in the AP poll?
December 22nd, 2017 at 9:30 AM ^
Actually based on analys predictions, as I stated, not the polls... we were behind both osu and psu in both polls as well.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:36 PM ^
But how many people would have expected O'Korn to start a third of the season? Let's be fair.
December 21st, 2017 at 5:45 PM ^
The coaching staff did that on purpose. It's totally fair to question that horrible decision.
December 21st, 2017 at 5:54 PM ^
The coaches didn't think he was better than Speight; he played only because Speight got hurt.
They did play him in front of Peters but only for a few weeks. His return (Wisc/OSU) was because Peters got hurt.
It's not like this was a Brady/Henson thing where the coaches legitimately thought both guys could be starters. They knew O'Korn was a stopgap.
December 21st, 2017 at 6:15 PM ^
O'Korn was ahead of Peters all through spring camp, all through fall camp, and through the first 8 games of the season. That was a decision they willingly made, it was not for a few weeks, and was why Peters wasn't 'ready'.
December 21st, 2017 at 3:56 PM ^
Does every team have to "overachieve" or "underachieve"? I wouldn't call OSU's 12-1 2015 team underachieving. It's hard for any team to go undefeated. 12-1 is a really good season.
I don't think we underachieved this year either, given the QB situation. O'Korn simply isn't a starting-caliber QB, but he ended up starting three of our losses and came off the bench in the fourth. It's fair to wonder if we wouldn't have won a couple more games with one of the other two QBs playing all season.
December 22nd, 2017 at 12:52 PM ^
As a Buckeye fan, the 2015 Buckeyes underachieved. That team was LOADED. Easily the most talented team in the country that year, but they struggled way too often on offense. The coaching on offense was borderline criminal that year. Whe they were motivated and the playcalling didn't overthink things or try to get cute, they destroyed good defenses. VT, UM, and ND all had good defenses and OSU did whatever they wanted.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:23 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 4:30 PM ^
2017 was an underachievement for OSU. They got hamblasted by two teams, one of which is a very mediocre Iowa team. They should've gone to the playoff no question, that they didn't shows that they underachieved.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:35 PM ^
I think almost 99% of teams would consider a chance to go 12-2 by winning a NY6 bowl game, and being the conference champions a successful season. Hell, if Harbaugh did that, I would probably go streaking in my neighbor's yard for joy.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:47 PM ^
What were the expectations? For OSU the expectation was national championship, returning a lot of talent from a team that went to the playoff last year. They were #2 in the country to start the season. For Michigan yes, 11-2 and going to a NY6 bowl would be a damn good season this year, for OSU it's an underachievement.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:54 PM ^
I said TBD. If they lose to USC, sure.
However, hard to say they underachieved if they wind up defeating the PAC 12 Champion in their bowl game to notch their 12th win of the season.
They would have
- 3 Top 10 Wins (Wisconsin, PSU, USC)
- 4 Top 25 Wins (Add MSU to the lot above)
- A third consecutive win on the road against their archrival, 6th in a row and 3rd in a row against their supposed savior coach.
- A Big Ten Championship
- 12 wins overall
- Can't really hold the OU loss against them too much either, especially depending on what the Sooners do in the playoff with their Heisman winner.
- The Iowa loss is horrendous, but it's made up for by the first five bullets.
It's not overachieving, but that's a season that's on par for what OSU can be expected to achieve year in and year out (perfection/national championships every year are not realistic for anyone).
December 21st, 2017 at 4:54 PM ^
I said TBD. If they lose to USC, sure.
However, hard to say they underachieved if they wind up defeating the PAC 12 Champion in their bowl game to notch their 12th win of the season.
They would have
- 3 Top 10 Wins (Wisconsin, PSU, USC)
- 4 Top 25 Wins (Add MSU to the lot above)
- A third consecutive win on the road against their archrival, 6th in a row and 3rd in a row against their supposed savior coach.
- A Big Ten Championship
- 12 wins overall
- Can't really hold the OU loss against them too much either, especially depending on what the Sooners do in the playoff with their Heisman winner.
- The Iowa loss is horrendous, but it's made up for by the first five bullets.
It's not overachieving, but that's a season that's on par for what OSU can be expected to achieve year in and year out (perfection/national championships every year are not realistic for anyone).
December 21st, 2017 at 4:54 PM ^
I said TBD. If they lose to USC, sure.
However, hard to say they underachieved if they wind up defeating the PAC 12 Champion in their bowl game to notch their 12th win of the season.
They would have
- 3 Top 10 Wins (Wisconsin, PSU, USC)
- 4 Top 25 Wins (Add MSU to the lot above)
- A third consecutive win on the road against their archrival, 6th in a row and 3rd in a row against their supposed savior coach.
- A Big Ten Championship
- 12 wins overall
- Can't really hold the OU loss against them too much either, especially depending on what the Sooners do in the playoff with their Heisman winner.
- The Iowa loss is horrendous, but it's made up for by the first five bullets.
It's not overachieving, but that's a season that's on par for what OSU can be expected to achieve year in and year out (perfection/national championships every year are not realistic for anyone).
December 21st, 2017 at 2:20 PM ^
The refs screwed us, but we were good enough not to let it come to that. That entire defense is either starting, playing, or got a chance in the NFL. Their backups will do the same.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:21 PM ^
Give it a rest. Bottom line is Harbaugh is 0-3 against that cheating prick in Columbus. That football program clearly stopped giving a shit about integrity and put winning ahead of everything...and it has worked.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:33 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:23 PM ^
No rebooting, retooling or rebuilding. That team is a midwest recruiting monster. Let's string together a couple wins vs. the buckeyes and I am sure we will start pulling comparable classes.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:24 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:36 PM ^
This is the truth.
You don't need to have equal talent to pull off a victory on occassion against a team like OSU. MSU has proved it many times, as has Iowa, as has Penn State, as has Virginia Tech, etc.
You never will get equal talent until you can beat them a few times so if you're waiting for a victory until we have equal talent, it will never come.
If Michigan finishes worse than 10-2 in 2018, the wheels will fall off on recruiting relative to other top 10 teams. On the field matters a lot to recruits.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:27 PM ^
As we get more talent at each position I think the narrative will change. Harbaugh has been searching for a QB since he got here and it has become apparent that we just haven't been successful with that. The arrow is pointing up and I do believe that he is getting more comfortable with what we have added and what we have on the team. I look forward to seeing what Brandon looks like in the bowl game on the 1st. I also have a feeling that with a more veteran team next year we may be instore for some "vintage" Harbaugh with the handling of the team. Go Blue!!!!
December 21st, 2017 at 2:27 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:28 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:29 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:29 PM ^
very close in that we need to change the outcome of 3-4 plays a game that impact winning and losing. It happened against MSU, Wisconsin and OSU this year (and the refs don't screw us as well). This is what made losing so difficult to watch this year.
December 21st, 2017 at 3:01 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:35 PM ^
I think it is real, but have been saying for a long time that considering the talent, JH has out coached Urb in the last 2, and even possibly year 1, when we were close in the 3rd quarter. We definitely are getting the most of the recruits that we are able to get. Also helped by many of OSUs players leaving after 3 years. If the talent ever equals out, Urb's chest pain will be making a re-appearance.
Another year or two of 2 losses and no CFP for OSU may slow the influx of 5 stars. Perhaps that is already happening, as witnessed with yesterday's loss of 4-5 top 100 recruits that they were expecting to get? The luster wears off after getting shellacked by Clemson and not making the playoffs this year?
December 21st, 2017 at 2:59 PM ^
Stop it. Just stop. Quit the mental gymnastics. None of our coaches, neither Harbaugh nor Hoke nor Rich Rod nor Lloyd Carr, has outcoached Urban Meyer or Jim Tressel in any sense whatsoever (not including Carr's win over Meyer and Florida in the 2008 Capital One Bowl, obviously). We've lost 15 of the last 17 to these motherfuckers. FIFTEEN OF THE LAST SEVENTEEN. Let me put that into perspective: the last time we beat a well-coached OSU team, "Facebook" was a pamphlet that grad schools gave out to incoming students at orientation and "Twitter" was something canaries did. This shit isn't fun anymore. It's bordering on fucking pathetic.
I'm all in with Harbaugh and I believe he's the best person to lead this program, but the only way to topple OSU's empire is by beating them. Until we do that, we just sound silly when we talk about Meyer being outcoached or claim that he's underachieved.
December 21st, 2017 at 3:00 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 3:10 PM ^
Thank you, dude who just joined the site two days ago. I'll be sure to take your assessment seriously.
December 21st, 2017 at 3:19 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 3:22 PM ^
...which is why it might be a good idea for you to lay off the snark and sit this one out, dude who just joined the site two days ago.
December 21st, 2017 at 3:07 PM ^
It's a "coaching vs. talent" convo.
I'm curious how the Michigan fanbase would be reacting if over the past 6 years, we brought in top 3 classes every year, and had seemingly grown stronger in talent year over year, but got blown out by Clemson, Oklahoma and Iowa in just the past 18 months....
Meyer has 1 national title at OSU. They recurit at BAMA level and were playing in what was a watered down B1G conference until just the past couple years. I absolutely guarantee that everybody on the board would be bitching about under achieving under similar circumstances.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:16 PM ^
MSU, and our record against MSU, completely blows the talent argument out of the water. They were even younger than we were and their recruits are less heralded than ours, and yet they managed to win 9 games, beat a Penn State team that woodshedded us, and beat us on the road yet again. We didn't beat a team with a winning record. Purdue (!) is the best team we beat. Also, talent is a function of recruiting, which is the job of the head coach. I'm not knocking Harbaugh, but to claim that he has outcoached Meyer in any sense is just ridiculous.
Also, if we had just won the B1G Championship and were less than three years removed from a National Championship (which Meyer won with his third string QB, mind you), I don't think anyone on this board would be complaining. The B1G has had a championship game for seven years and we have yet to even play in it, let alone win it. The list of Power 5 teams that have played for conference championships during that time includes such perennial bluebloods as Duke, Missouri, UNC, Michigan State, and Arizona.
December 21st, 2017 at 4:04 PM ^
December 21st, 2017 at 2:39 PM ^
I heard Urban is on the back end of his career.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:39 PM ^
I really don't know. I wouldn't say that a coach who, in six years, has won two B1G championships (it would have been three if OSU wasn't ineligible in 2012), a National Championship, and has only lost four conference games, is underachieving.
It really doesn't matter though. I'm sick of losing to OSU every Goddamn year, and I'm not going to sit here and wonder whether their coach is overrated while he's 6-0 against us. Just fucking win.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:43 PM ^
The truth is that Ohio State almost always has exceptional talent, no matter who the coach is. That was as true of Cooper's late 1990s teams as it is now of Urban Meyer's teams. It is equally true that Urban Meyer is the best coach Ohio has had since Woody, and probably better than him. Multiple playoff appearances and a national title is not underachieving. Ohio fans who are grumbling about underachievement aren't smart enough to grasp that other programs have exceptional talent and good coaching, too. But I don't know why we are debating a narrative spun by a bunch of gomers who haven't left the state of Ohio unless it was driving a truck or to buy fireworks in Indiana.
December 21st, 2017 at 2:47 PM ^
In addition to OSU I think we need to have clear eyes in realizing that PSU is going to be a major threat. Unlike MSU kids grow up dreaming to play there. You can make the case that Joe Pa (aside from the scandal) hindered the team over his last decade, just by being old and out of touch (no pun intended). Now that the sanctions have come and gone they are starting to roll a bit. I know people don't think they will be great next year because of losses, but don't be so sure. That Sanders kid is really good, losing Barkley won't be the end of the world for them.