OSU Oversigning - the roster trimming begins
On the heals of a 27 man recruiting class, it is no secret that Ohio State has signed a SEC-esque volume pf players during his short tenure (last 4 years were 27+23+24+25 = 99, with several 5th year seniors from the 2011 class still on the roster as well). During his signing day press conference, Urban Meyer named three players who would leaving the team due to career ending injuries, Armani Reeves, Devin Bogard, and Ron Tanner. Bogard suffered 3 ACL injuries between high school and college, most recently this past fall vs Rutgers, so one could understand why he why he would hang it up. Reeves saw the field at nickleback, and was said to have suffered from concussions, most recently in the Big Ten Championship game vs Wisconsin. Ron Tanner's career was pretty much relegated to special teams, but he was said to have had a "foot injury" that kept him out of a couple of games.
What is curious about the medical disqualifications of Reeves and Tanner, however, is that both were seemingly healthy enough to participate in the CFP National Championship game against Oregon last month. Player participation link. So if they were healthy enough to safely see the field in January, and were not seen leaving the field injured, under what circumstances could their medical conditions now preclude them from being able to play football again?
February 5th, 2015 at 4:27 PM ^
Your user picture is relevant.
February 5th, 2015 at 11:59 AM ^
It sucks that this is becoming the nature of college football. The thing I feel is most tangible and you can draw connections to is the point that 2 of those guys played in the national championship game. If they played in that game and then are "forced" to take a medical hardship I feel like this should count towards the 85 scholarship allotment. Just one more thing that needs to be changed NCAA.
February 5th, 2015 at 11:59 AM ^
With no foreseable penatlies from the NCAA why are we so opposed to oversigning? I've heard the ethical arguments for years and all it has gotten us is nowhere. Hopefully Harbaugh can win and win the right way, but with no consequences why not gray shirt a kid now and then when we need to?
February 5th, 2015 at 12:08 PM ^
Because, y'know, there is more to a football team than winning.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:36 PM ^
Well for a program that prides itself on being the winningest of all time that is hard to believe.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:49 PM ^
Or are you just so cynical to believe that anytime anyone does something successful, they must also have done something against the rules?
February 5th, 2015 at 2:01 PM ^
Clearly a troll. Waited 4 years for this moment.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:06 PM ^
gray-shirting, like wins and losses, is just a statistic.
;-)
February 5th, 2015 at 12:15 PM ^
Yea man you nailed it!! I think we should also mandate steroids and HGH use among our football players. We should also force all players to take the easiest classes so that they will have to spend the least amount of time away from the field. And finally, we should pay recruits to entice them to come to Michigan in the first place.
These things will all give us a competitive advantage and as long as we don't get caught it's all good. Amirite?
/s
There are things that are more important than wins and losses. I think Harbaugh gets this, perhaps you do not
February 5th, 2015 at 12:35 PM ^
We already do force the football players to take the easiest classes. Hand went to Alabama because they would let him major in civil engineering and we wouldn't. We tried to convince him to major in sports management.
I do get it. I'm just saying maybe sometimes a grayshirt would work out for both parties. Send a borderline academic kid to WCC for a semester to study hard and work out. Then join the team in Jan with a full semesters worth of credits and full eligibility.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:00 PM ^
Or, the more likely scenario, at least as far as Hand, his courses and test scores prevented him from being able to qualify for entry into Michigan's Engineering progam, so the advisors offered him an alternative.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:16 PM ^
So, they basically told him he was stupid.
/s
Too soon?
February 5th, 2015 at 1:53 PM ^
The Alabama Engineering Program and Michigan program are light years apart....and my daughter is IN the Alabama Engineering Program.
Do your homework kid.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:03 PM ^
So football players can't do engineering at UM?
February 5th, 2015 at 2:56 PM ^
I can't sit here and rattle off a bunch of names, but there have been some.
One I can think of.
Adam Finley (P) studied Bio-med engineering.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:00 PM ^
I know they can. I was in an ME class with Mark Huyge, who was NAME major btw.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:07 PM ^
Sure you are not a troll? Or is there some other reason you are now directly contradicting your own theory?
February 6th, 2015 at 9:34 AM ^
I don't have a theory. I'm just saying it is BS that we didn't let Hand do engineering. It is not like our guys are majoring in economics or molecular biology. The vast majority are kinesiology, sports management, and the heralded general studies.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:01 PM ^
February 6th, 2015 at 1:02 AM ^
Hoke also thought there were things more important than winning - how did that work out for you?
February 5th, 2015 at 5:48 PM ^
Because right and wrong are not a measurement of the penalties.
Scholarships are--and a court confirmed this--a form of payment for services under a contract. So first consider the contract:
-
The worker signs a non-compete (LOI). Once signed that player cannot go anywhere with out being granted a release from his boss. His boss can refuse to grant him a release only to specific other companies, or to release him at all. The worker, by agreement of every company in the market, can't even work his first year.
-
The worker is restricted in form of payment only to scholarships at the school he works for. The player and the company get in trouble if this is violated, even if it's a third party offering even low-value things. Neither can the player sell anything given to him in the course of his work.
- The worker's ONLY form of payment is that scholarship, and he only signs away his right to work elsewhere because he expects to receive that scholarship. He relocates to that city, with the expectation that his room and board are included in his payment.
Oversigning is inherently a bait and switch: the coach knowingly is signing more workers than he is legally allowed to keep, yet those players still have to sign the non-compete, so when the coach is done culling those he wants from those he mis-scouted, the ones he dumps are S.O.L. The agreement is already exploitative; when you add that his coach is now actively looking for reasons to break contract--in fact MUST find those excuses in the next few months--it's highly unethical. The whole enterprise is built on a free education--particularly valuable to those who aren't going to play in the NFL--as form of payment; if a coach knowingly puts himself in a position where must screw his workers out o their payment, that is wrong.
February 6th, 2015 at 9:39 AM ^
But your analogy only holds up for private universities if I understand the court decision.
Also I get the ethical arguments. I'm all for winning the right way. I think Harbaugh will win the right way. It is really greasy for coaches to oversign. I'm just saying that there is a strong correlation between coaches who do it (Meyer, Saban, etc.) and coaches who are winning championships (Meyer, Saban, etc.). Until the NCAA starts cracking down teams that don't oversign will be at a disadvantage.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:06 PM ^
I think, the point is that Urban has a habit of recruting players "defensively". In other words, he latches onto kids being recruited by Michigan to prevent them from signing with Michigan. I don't know the history of these three kids, or of Chad Lindsay, or Mike Weber, specifically, whether they were recruited by OSU before Michigan noticed them. In the end, if they don't work out, it's a firm handshake, "thanks for your service", and you're injured/headed to an FCS team. Maybe this is part of why he wore out his welcome at Florida, er, developed a health issue.
Edit: This was meant to be a reply to back and forth between Magnus and Sweet Hawaiian - all 3 players were recruited by Michigan.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:03 PM ^
I'm sure if they were healthy enough to continue their careers and didn't want to leave, then those players would be speaking up about it, I would think.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
These are kids who likely want to latch onto another program, if possible. If not possible, they want to be accepted by the OSU fanbase, which guarantees, at a minimum, a decent job for an alum and never paying for a drink the rest of your life.
If they come out and complain, future coaches will see them as being trouble-makers or "not team players," and they've burned any bridges they had in Columbus.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:12 PM ^
I think it's a choice of getting cut via "medical" or having a miserable final year of two riding the bench and playing on the demonstration team. Probably made worse because it would be in Urbz interest to make an example of someone who crossed him.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:39 PM ^
osu systematically cleans roster in order to be able to sign maximum number each year.
reasons players who are not contributors in 3rd, 4th, 5th year leave: transfer for playing time a other schoo, injury, concentrate on school (on their own money).
players do not complain about it because they know the situation going in. just because you were good at football as a high school junior does not earn a scholarship 4 years later.
this roster mangement is logical if your goal is to win all the games- which it is for osu and its fan base and administration.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:05 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
I am not in favor of the win at any cost philosophy (can't even spell it). I still like to think that Michigan has won and will continue to win the right way.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:29 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 1:35 PM ^
The right way is to treat the players as college students. To treat them with respect and as people, not property.
They're part of the Michigan family and it's wrong to throw away members of your family because you've found someone who can run faster or block better than they can.
Winning is important, but it's more important that Michigan doesn't sell its soul to win football games.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:59 PM ^
Maybe a smart risk for the football team, but a giant "fuck you" to many of the players who commited thinking they'd get a fair chance once they are upperclassmen and instead get cut by their junior year to make room for The Next Big Thing™
And I fully realize that most players are aware of this potential to some small degree, but many of those guys are left without much of a safety net and having to transfer to smaller, less prolific schools with only a couple of college credits towards some worthless Gen Ed field to show for it.
I mean, a Michigan degree is valuable. half a Michigan degree is worthless.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:07 PM ^
The injuries appear legit, and until this year Urban was never an oversigner. He's not a particularly ethical person, but his record is good on this. If the players he medicaled decide to transfer and play elsewhere, then you've got a smoking gun of oversigning attrition. For now I think we need to wait and see what the state of his roster is in.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:15 PM ^
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February 5th, 2015 at 12:21 PM ^
As Seth just said - there is no reason to assume Meyer is doing something untoward when he has an established history.
Something to keep an eye on, but way premature to make accusations.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^
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February 5th, 2015 at 2:41 PM ^
If you were Tanner and your coach pushed you out, wouldn't you pop off in the media about how unfair you got treated? How you were shunned for some 4 star? He hasn't said a negative thing about the situation. Maybe he has lingering foot pain and said "screw it, I don't play anyway, I want to walk when I'm 50." The point is, me and you don't have any idea the extent of his injury situation. You speculate negatively because you're a UM fan, and I speculate positively because I'm an OSU fan. I feel like if he felt he was screwed over, he'd make a stink about it to the media or on Twitter. All he is doing on Twitter is promoting his mixtape or whatever. Seems not pissed. Until Urban has a player come out and say he screwed him over for a scholarship. Any player, from BG-OSU, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here. Saban and Miles both have been publically called out by former players. Urban hasn't.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:08 PM ^
So I guess the better question should be are medical hardships reserved for players with real career ending injuries or for players who don't want to play football any more.
You asserted above that OSU's medical staff stated that Reeves could no longer play due to concussions, having been knocked out cold before halftime of the B1G Championship game, yet it would have been negligent for them to allow him to go on the field and risk serious traumatic brain injury in the college football playoff just 1 month later.
And re: Tanner, the guy was still playing on special teams at the end of his career. If one is to say, "I want to walk when I'm 50" - is that really the intent for the medical hardship? If someone was sick of riding pine, who wouldn't use a vague medical hardship excuse to maintain their academic scholarship?
February 5th, 2015 at 2:35 PM ^
I guess if I changed my name to Seth all of my points would have hit home :(
February 8th, 2015 at 11:37 AM ^
I must admit your name is kind of annoying. In my NCAA dynasty my awesome, Heisman-contending dual threat quarterback for Michigan was "John Ross" and I had to mentally call him "Non-Buckeye John Ross" his entire career.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
They are injured--too useless to the program.
Edit: I have no actual information--if Seth's post about the injuries being legit is accurate then I defer to him. Seems odd they would be dressed for the NC game if they had career ending injuries though.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:08 PM ^
But IF it all our suspicions are true, these kids need to come forward and make it public, so that the NCAA will take noticel. It's either that or they are getting "compensated" some other way to kee quiet.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:15 PM ^
very few players will ever do that, theyd be burning too many bridges in c-bus, scorn of fanbase, etc.
and the ncaa does not care, will never do anything. one of the largest schools with one of most popular programs (and very famous coach) just won a natl title, ncaa loves it.
ncaa just caved in and restored wins and cut penalties @ psu (which is disgusting, should never be forgiven) - you really think they care? rape means very little, short of multiple murders the ncaa will do nothing
February 5th, 2015 at 12:09 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 12:22 PM ^
This website had good historical info on this, but seems to be all jacked up now. Anyone know what happened?
February 5th, 2015 at 12:34 PM ^
I see by years-old tweets of mine showing up in my mentions that Michigan fans have latched on to the notion that Ohio State is oversigning.
— Tony Gerdeman (@GerdOZone) February 5, 2015
This was retweeted by oversigning.com twitter and it was his first activity since July.February 5th, 2015 at 12:43 PM ^
would a system, where each member school awarded the same number of scholarships each year with no specific roster limits, eliminate the cutting of players?
currently, different conferences and different schools play by different sets of rules and ethics. then these schools compete against each other with skewed rosters.
25 scholaships per year would lead to rosters theoretically as large as 125.
student athletes on that bottom half of that roster would be participating for the education not playing time. lots of football players getting a chance for a college education.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:24 PM ^
Yes, this seems to be the best solution I have read to fix the oversigning issue. Completely turns around the concept of roster management from one where you want to cut dead weight to one where you want to keep as many guys around and make them contributors. I think you could go under 25 per year to something like 23 which would be 92 over 4 years. But teams like Alabama that have maybe 7 3year players per class and a lot who don't redshirt, you would hear Saban complain that this hurts the kids because fewer kids don't have the opportunity to get an esteemed Alabama degree. So it would probably stay at 25 which could actually level the playing field a bit when a lower level team could field 50 players who are 4th or 5th year players against a team like Alabama of mostly 2nd and 3rd year players, though it would also strain budgets of schools that struggle to support their athletic department.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:28 PM ^
Will be intresting to see the other three that need to be trimmed. There are 5th year seniors at most schools that wont get playing time, and want playing time, that are encouraged to try their luck elsewhere.
Meyer didn't recruit these 5th year guys. Big10 scholarships are good for 4 years. Nothing is guaranteed beyond that. Whether that is moral or not is for another discussion.
I don't want to get into personal stories but it happens here as well.
Meyer and his "snake oil" and "oversignings" just respresents the way pretty much all football powers operate. Once UM regains its foothold amongst the elites, we likely wont be very different than OSU. It's a performance business at the big schools and a major reason most talented prospects choose a school is because it prepares them for the NFL.