OSU Oversigning - the roster trimming begins
On the heals of a 27 man recruiting class, it is no secret that Ohio State has signed a SEC-esque volume pf players during his short tenure (last 4 years were 27+23+24+25 = 99, with several 5th year seniors from the 2011 class still on the roster as well). During his signing day press conference, Urban Meyer named three players who would leaving the team due to career ending injuries, Armani Reeves, Devin Bogard, and Ron Tanner. Bogard suffered 3 ACL injuries between high school and college, most recently this past fall vs Rutgers, so one could understand why he why he would hang it up. Reeves saw the field at nickleback, and was said to have suffered from concussions, most recently in the Big Ten Championship game vs Wisconsin. Ron Tanner's career was pretty much relegated to special teams, but he was said to have had a "foot injury" that kept him out of a couple of games.
What is curious about the medical disqualifications of Reeves and Tanner, however, is that both were seemingly healthy enough to participate in the CFP National Championship game against Oregon last month. Player participation link. So if they were healthy enough to safely see the field in January, and were not seen leaving the field injured, under what circumstances could their medical conditions now preclude them from being able to play football again?
February 5th, 2015 at 12:47 PM ^
these are 1 year, renewable scholarships.
nothing is guaranteed beyond that academic year.
4 years to participate.
1 redshirt year.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:05 PM ^
OSU and other B1G schools have been doing 4 year scholarships since at least 2012. http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2012/01/big_ten_offering_recruit…
February 5th, 2015 at 12:29 PM ^
The title of the NBC article gets me: "Three Ohio State players’ careers lost to injury" - no blame assigned here, no reference to roster problems. And then the disengenous "Depth is an issue for us right now on the back end" from Kerry Coombs, as if OSU has trouble keeping the roster full of DBs.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:00 PM ^
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February 5th, 2015 at 12:32 PM ^
than focusing on OSU or bama or the myriad of other schools that employ over signing or summer "camp" tryouts or other creative ways to sort through talent, maybe it would be better to consider whether its time for Michigan to start to play by the same rules everyone else does. Not saying its right or that I like it but clearly it has to be an option to consider as these types of strategies are not going away. Also with Franklin at PSU and Meyer in C-bus the SEC ways are going to creep into the BgTn like it or not.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:50 PM ^
if the goal is to provide free/low cost education to athletes , many of whom lack any interest in academics, than no.
if the goal is to win football games, than yes
February 5th, 2015 at 3:20 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 12:51 PM ^
if the goal is to provide free/low cost education to athletes , many of whom lack any interest in academics, than no.
if the goal is to win football games, than yes
February 5th, 2015 at 12:53 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 12:47 PM ^
On the heals of a 27 man recruiting class...
Let the heeling begin.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:48 PM ^
While giving "medical hardship" is a tough thing to do to students, correct me if I'm wrong, don't they still get to remain on scholarship to finish their degree if the school allows them?
February 5th, 2015 at 12:58 PM ^
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February 5th, 2015 at 12:49 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 12:51 PM ^
I haven't seen any cases yet where the player seemed to legitimately be pushed out. If Meyer was going to "push" someone out to make room, he has plenty of guys who have never even set foot on the field who he could use instead of 3 guys who have contributed. Tanner and Bogard are two of our best Special Teams players and Reeves was our starting nickel this year. No coach pushes out contributors. When you see it happen at Bama or wherever, it's 4th or 5th stringers who got "injured" in practice, not guys getting injured during key games like the Big Ten championship.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:23 PM ^
Two of the "guys getting injured during key games" managed to recover enough to play in the last game of OSU's season. Since their injuries weren't severe enough to keep them off the field, doesn't it sound like they could still contribute if Meyer wanted them to -- that is, if he didn't believe that someone else in that roster spot could contribute more?
February 5th, 2015 at 3:35 PM ^
Reeves did play in the Championship, but I don't know if he was injured again in any way during that game. They haven't announced anything specific yet, but I know the kid struggled with injury and missed multiple games this year because of it. So it's not like the kid was being forced to play week after week while the OSU staff knew he had an injury. When the medical staff cleared him to play, he played. When they didn't clear him, he didn't dress this season. Beyond that, no one besides Reeves, his family, and the program know when he was or wasn't injured or cleared. So to imply Meyer did anything "shady" in regards to Reeves is unfounded in fact.
I don't remember off the top of my head if Tanner played in the Championship. I know he was dinged all season and he may have worsened an injury at some point. You or I don't know the details, so it's pointless to say anything definitive.
Bogard's injuries are well known and discussed.
What is known, is that all three were contributers. Your statement , "if he didn't believe that someone else in that roster spot could contribute more?" doesn't make sense to me, because even if he thought someone coming on to the team could take their spot, it makes no sense to push them off them team over a 4th or 5th stringer. What your saying is that Meyer is willing to keep guys who can't even crack the rotation on special teams, but not the guys who earned game minutes? These are the three he is "cutting"? That's nonsense. Even if these guys lose their spot, they are more likely to contribute than many other guys on the team, especially if the guy who beat them gets injured. If Meyer was going to cut three players, it'd be three that never saw the field.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:00 PM ^
The fact two of those guys played 3 weeks ago (and Reeves recorded a tackle to boot!) is pretty damning. When Michigan tends to medical a guy, it's because he hasn't stepped foot on a field or was carted off the last time.
But whatever, this is what CFB is right now. Gotta compete regardless.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:00 PM ^
Bogard has had three serious knee injuries. Reeves was significant contributor this year who has had six concussions in his career. In fact, while he was out this year, Meyer stated at a press conference how much his injury was causing problems at the Nickel. That's not roster trimming, it's kids careers unfortunately ending.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:08 PM ^
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February 5th, 2015 at 1:28 PM ^
Except for, you know, the last game of OSU's season, when the kid with the "career ending" series of concusions played and made a tackle. Maybe it's not the concussions that are ending Reeves's career -- at OSU, at least.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:53 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 3:09 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 1:02 PM ^
Seems like they over signed.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:06 PM ^
Is pretty much akin to anti vaxers trying to explain how avoiding vaccinations are the right choice... No matter how you approach it, in the end the facts prove you are wrong.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:16 PM ^
And all of their recruiting and cutting schenanigans won't really matter.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:17 PM ^
to leveling the playing field for all and enforcing the rules everyone seems to be obeying but some, Alabama and Ohio, are skirting in an effort to continue making sure their rosters are well-stocked better than pro rosters. This could never happen in the NFL because of roster enforcement imposed by both competitive and financial limits. There is no financial ceiling at the college level except how scholarships are divined and accounted for under creative acounting rules, so the same regulatory pressure doesn't exist.
It appears that rather than revoking scholarships early for players deemed less productive than others, Saban and now Meyer are maxing out the letter of the medical hardship rule to both cull and convince their fringe guys to seek a medical ouster from their programs. Some of these or all could be legitimate, but clearly this is a tactic being used to sign more players than your roster of scholarship limit allows.
The level of enforcement on this really comes back to member-schools and rival coaches urging a crackdown and having the NCAA impose scholarship penalties for blatant oversigning violations. It's likely that this won't happen because of the rep of those doing it with impugnity, and also because most schools see the benefit of taking advantage of the same opportunity on occasion.
Obviously public scrutiny and pressure on Ohio in particular in this case couldn't help but expose this issue on a greater scale.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:17 PM ^
Come on Michigan fans, you guys are better than this. Let's go over facts: Meyer has never oversigned. Ohio State does not oversign. You are probably asking: "But UFM! 27 recruits this year! That's more than 25!" Sure. Except 4 of those recruits were early enrollees. So that argument is wrong. Regarding the overall scholarships, Meyer was asked about this point blank during his press conference and he said that there are several players who will have to retire for medical reasons. He mentioned the three from the OP and Trey Johnson (who the OP left out) and he also noted that there were others. The scout team for the Buckeyes was decimated with injuries and Meyer was vocal about it on the lead-up to the playoffs. As Seth said, if one of these players that leaves for medical reasons plays somewhere else then by all means sound the drum and gather the lynch mob. But none of you know the first thing about Armani Reeves' medical history to be making any judgments. If anything, you should feel concerned that a 21 year old kid had 6 concussions during his short career and will have to forego his dream of playing football. Nothing to see here.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:20 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 1:27 PM ^
I, for one, enjoy and welcome rational, level-headed insight from our rival fanbases. But that's just me...
February 5th, 2015 at 2:51 PM ^
You're talking about OSU. I don't really comment on anything here unless OSU is mentioned.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:23 PM ^
Reeves played in the Championship game, so Urban appears to be the one who isn't concerned about his health.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:18 PM ^
Come on Michigan fans, you guys are better than this. Let's go over facts: Meyer has never oversigned. Ohio State does not oversign. You are probably asking: "But UFM! 27 recruits this year! That's more than 25!" Sure. Except 4 of those recruits were early enrollees. So that argument is wrong. Regarding the overall scholarships, Meyer was asked about this point blank during his press conference and he said that there are several players who will have to retire for medical reasons. He mentioned the three from the OP and Trey Johnson (who the OP left out) and he also noted that there were others. The scout team for the Buckeyes was decimated with injuries and Meyer was vocal about it on the lead-up to the playoffs. As Seth said, if one of these players that leaves for medical reasons plays somewhere else then by all means sound the drum and gather the lynch mob. But none of you know the first thing about Armani Reeves' medical history to be making any judgments. If anything, you should feel concerned that a 21 year old kid had 6 concussions during his short career and will have to forego his dream of playing football. Nothing to see here.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:23 PM ^
When both sides play within the same rules....
I love the high ground approach, and victory is so much sweeter when you beat a cheater, but at some point you stack the odds too far in favor of your opponent by allowing them to circumvent rules.
Having the ability to train and try out more players is a massive advantage- and one of the big reasons the NCAA capped the scholorships at current number. I don't want to go back to 200 players on the elite top 10 programs and walk on quality players starting at most mid-majors.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:30 PM ^
And because this information is mostly guarded and logically private, who knows what the facts are behind medical hardship. You don't, unless you look, ask and find out.
But because there are rules in place to guard aganst oversigning for competive reasons, and schools like Ohio and Alabama, exceed the limit of their available scholarships, the question arises, how are they able to do this while other's don't, can't or won't? Why isn't it hard to figure out. They want the most productive and healthy players on their roster to produce more wins each season to generate championship seasons.
How they do it, and how they get some kids to commit, are questions of a different order. But if this issue isn't even debatable at the NFL level, where the game is a business and no contract is guaranteed, it certainly is an issue at the college level when a college player who has already had 6 concussions is booted off the team when it matters more to the school's roster needs, than the player's medical welfare, even if you want to hide behind that subterfuge.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:39 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 1:39 PM ^
Grey shirts and now Blue shirts, pushing 5th year seniors to transfer, and the biggest abuse is currently in medical hardships.
Saban is no fool, he understand people will not look to closely at a medical excuse, and it makes it look as if the university cares about the players health. So you can easily use this excuse endlessly...
Meyer is not a fool either, he understands what it takes to compete with Bama, heck trying to keep up with Bama caused him to tuck tail and run from UF. He got back into the game knowing full well you either do the same as Bama (even playing field) or you get out of the game, as you cannot overcome a 20+ player advantage no matter how well you run a team.
Buckeye fans can belittle you for questioning a players medical hardship, ask you how do you know if it is real or not, all they want- just one big foolish statement as they fall under the exact same arguement on his real health. Question all you want, force these guys to prove these things, and if something is falsified, skewer them alive, because it's just plain evil to kick a kid to the curb for the potential of another, when that kid has given his all as aksed to be part of the team.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:42 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 1:50 PM ^
Will be fine as long as he can get away with cutting corners and winning, as soon as some program eclipses him or NCAA steps in to investigate his program, his heart will turn towards the NFL.
Some people embrace the challenge, some look for the biggest guy on the block to match up with, urban has shown us all he sees the tough road and turns the other way.
I don't fear Urban, I just want to see how well he does when he isn't circumventing rules others play under.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:24 PM ^
I know it's simplistic, but the easiest way to fix issues like oversigning is a hard cap. 90 scholarships over 4 years. Kids graduate or declare for the NFL, then you get those scholarships back. Beyond that, tough. You lose 3 kids to transfer and 3 to injuries, so be it. Things happen. You have a little wiggle room, but that's it.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:33 PM ^
Since we have been on Alabama's case (and most of the rest of the SEC), OSU fans are watching this situation closely.
1. Bogard, as has been stated numerous times, has had three ACL surgeries (both knees affected). Urban quoted as saying that Devan is one of his favorite guys.
2. Reeves is done per the medical staff due to concussions. He apparently knocked himself out cold on a play right before halftime of the Wisconsin game. When healthy, he was a starter, so if Urban was looking for someone to 'cut', it would have been a bench guy, don't you think?
3. Tanner's injuries are more speculative. He got his four years, so there is no reason to use the injury excuse on him (unless it is true), especially as it was announced a few weeks ago that Carter and Underwood (two RS juniors) were not going to return to the team because they had their four years, and I think both have earned degrees.
Right now, they're three over. With rumors of guys moving on (Dunn) coupled with the possibilities of injuries occurring in spring and fall practices, OSU will be at 85 for the season, and will not have done anything underhanded to get there.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:52 PM ^
But you are ignoring the obvious in your own statements:
1. Bogard, as has been stated numerous times, has had three ACL surgeries (both knees affected). Damaged doesn't mean ruined...Will he cut Braxton for having multiple surgeries?
Urban quoted as saying that Devan is one of his favorite guys. Meaningless quote thanks, on a similar note I like cake....
2. Reeves is done per the medical staff due to concussions. He apparently knocked himself out cold on a play right before halftime of the Wisconsin game. When healthy, he was a starter, so if Urban was looking for someone to 'cut', it would have been a bench guy, don't you think? So he was concussed so badly he had to retire from sports, but not till he played in playoffs...because OSU cares about his future health?
3. Tanner's injuries are more speculative. STOP right there, that is all you need to say, the rest is your opinion, and this is one of the obvious glaring issues everyone will follow, OSU better pray he doesn't transfer and start somewhere...
With rumors of guys moving on (Dunn) coupled with the possibilities of injuries occurring in spring and fall practices - you don't over recruit because someone might get hurt, that's the point you are ignoring...if that was the case EVERYONE would recruit 200 kids a year just incase the other players got hurt...
Look I get it you bleed scarlet/grey, congrats on NC yada yada, but don't come to other teams message board with crap points that skirt the facts and think we will accept them or care... If you want to address the issue, try seperating yourself from it and examine it constructively, don't rush to defend just out of fanship... And word to the wise, you are wagering on a dead dog here, too obvious what Urban is doig to defend easily...good luck
February 5th, 2015 at 3:14 PM ^
1. (a) Three torn ACLs. He's lucky he can walk. If Miller can't throw again (which is actually possible, he's apparently not close yet) and won't/can't switch roles, he would be removed since he's had his four years as well.
(b) Yellow with chocolate icing, myself.
2. Or, he was examined and cleared protocol for the NC, then had a full medical eval after the season, looking at the totality of his history.
3. (a) The coaches/medical staff haven't specified Tanner's injury(ies) past the 'foot' thing. If he transfers somewhere, he'd be a grad xfer (and an injured one).
(b) Its a matter of when, not if. Players get hurt everywhere. Guys fall down the depth chart in practice and leave on their own accord. Having a few over puts one in a better position that being right on and having 4-5 guys get hurt/transfer. Your 200 comment makes me think you're angling for the Tennessee job.
Long history of OSU in my family, but I'm not a blind fanatic. I will, however, point out that Urban is not known for oversigning, and is likely aware of a few other injuries that haven't been made public. A few of the last commits were low rated guys (Arnette was one), which leads me to believe that Urban knows the numbers and isn't just taking kids because he wants mega-classes every year.
February 6th, 2015 at 2:13 PM ^
My issue with #2 (and I know this is late) is that if you really care about a kid's history of medical issues, you have nearly a month between the BIG title game and the first playoff game to take a look. Nothing has changed in the interim between those two periods, except Reeves was needed for the game and now he is expendable. Meyer isn't a devil, but this is tortured rationalizations if you ask me.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:23 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 3:31 PM ^
Reeves has a concussion history, and suffered ANOTHER concussion in the National Championship game. That is why he played in the NCG, but may no longer play (has not been determined). He was OSU's starting nickel and possible starter at an open CB slot, so he certainly is not somebody that would be chased away.
Oversigning can happen for many reasons, some of which are fine, and some not:
Kid decides to transfer on his own since he is not getting playing time -- fine
Kid is not given 5th year after redshirting -- fine
Kid suffers legit injury -- fine
Kid has scholarship pulled for bad behavior -- fine
Kid has his scholarship pulled since he is not good enough -- not fine.
The last tactic was common in the SEC, but I am not aware of any instance in which Meyer has done it.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:09 PM ^
I like how the OSU supporters in this thread keep changing their stories about Reeves and his concussions. First we heard about the concussion he suffered in the B1G championship game -- but wait, he managed to play in the national championship game (and a week earlier in the Sugar Bowl against Alabama, by the way), so I guess he got better. But now Meyer says (conveniently) that he's suffering from career-ending concussion issues, after somehow managing to play in both playoff games, and you inform us that he "suffered ANOTHER concussion" in the national championship game. Maybe you'd be so kind as to provide a link for that, because I looked and could find nothing.
Even going back to earlier in the season when Reeves missed some games, Meyer was unwilling to say that he had a concussion:
Asked if Reeves had suffered a concussion, Meyer said, “They [i.e., the medical staff] don’t say it’s that at all.”
But now that Meyer's got roster issues, he's suddenly convinced that this kid has career-ending concussion concerns. OK . . . .
February 5th, 2015 at 3:51 PM ^
According to Scout, here is how many players Michigan signed from 2010-13
2013 - 27
2012 - 25
2011 - 19
2010 - 27
Total- 98
Was Michigan oversiging?
February 5th, 2015 at 4:37 PM ^
February 5th, 2015 at 5:19 PM ^
Actually according to http://www.maizeandbluenews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1732:very-early-look-at-2016-recruiting-scholarship-numbers&catid=21:recruiting&Itemid=96
Michigan oversigned by 2 in 2013.
February 5th, 2015 at 5:52 PM ^
You are allowed, by B1G rules to oversign by 3 over the scholarships you have available. You have to be in compliance with in a certain time frame and they monitor to make sure you aren't just kicking kids off the team to make room for others.
The Illini signed 30 a few years ago, but had room to move 3 early enrollees to 10-11 class and then were allowed the two over because they only had 55 returners.