Urban's honeymoon advantage over Hoke.
Recruiting in 2010 for Michigan Vs. Ohio and how Urban and Ohio remains one step ahead.
For the wolverines we already know the effects 2010 recruiting has held over us. We absorbed transfers, academic ineligibility etc. Michigan looked poised to ink an amazing class highlighted by Devin Gardner and Demar Dorsey. The class was great and as we all know the O-Line recruiting was not so great. Michigan had signed only one lineman (Christian Pace).
From the 2010 roster we have, Devin Gardner, Jeremy Jackson, Jibreel Black, Josh Furman, JMFR, Courtney Avery, Will Hagerup, Drew Dileo.
that is what remains from our 2010 class that contained 27 signees.
For the Buckeyes Urban Meyer inherited another great Ohio Recruiting class from 2010 that has stayed intact. Current players on the Ohio three deep from the 2010 class are, Carlos Hyde, Corey Brown, Christian Bryant, Andrew Norwell (OL), Bradley Roby, JT Moore, Rod Smith and Drew Basil. This is all from a class of 19 total commits.
This puts 42% of their 2010 class in the two deep. While Michigan trots out 8 as well from 2010 but that’s basically all the players they retained from that class. Michigan retained 8 of 27 commits from 2010 (correct me if I am wrong). This is good for 29%.
So the difference between the two programs at this point could be directly related to recruiting. Hoke did get in late and was only given a month to finish the 2011 class. Urban Meyer was in early and was able to finish 2012 recruiting very strong and he also inherited a 2010 and 2011 class that now has thirteen players on the offensive two deep and another nine on the defensive two deep.
The argument is how far are we away from OHIO in terms of being competitive? My argument is we are one year behind. 2010 is the setback year. Ohio has not seen the attrition we went through during the end of the Rich Rod era. Michigan was poised to have a good 2011 season one way or another. Hoke and company capitalized on what I think would have been Rich Rods best year had he been retained. Right now Urban is in this same pattern except he has two classes from the Tressel era to build on and he has not seen the attrition Michigan has. This year Ohio will lose 7 starters from the offense to graduation, 2 more starters from the defense. This does not include the possibility that Braxton may make a run at the draft early. 2014 Should be the year we can bridge the talent gap. Right now it’s the timing in which Urban was hired and what he inherited vs. what Hoke inherited and the depleted 2010 recruiting class.
This should work as a pass to give the staff another year to work with their own talent. I keep arguing that Urban inherited a Big Ten title contender from the start. Tressel recruited and developed his teams. I also have argued that Urban did the same at Florida with Zook recruits, minus the fact Zook never developed anything. Right now Hoke is developing his own recruits on the fly why Urbz is still redshirting his recruits and living off of the tressel classes from previous years. Time will tell and if the gap is to be bridged we need to see this team be competitive VS. Ohio at home this year and win a few big games on the road in 2014.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ^
I'm really trying to care about comparisons to other teams right now, but I can't. This ship is sinking.
Developing our own players? Sure. But I can't remember a football season ever where the players (both individually, and as a team) got progressively worse as the season progressed. So unfortunately, now even Hoke's ability to develop players is under a shadow of doubt...
Losing sucks.
PS: Your post is too long.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:20 PM ^
Come on now, you can remember. Try harder, 2009-10 gerg Defense doesnt ring a bell?
November 11th, 2013 at 5:39 PM ^
Just wanted to say, that same "GERG" has made a defense that was giving up 491 ypg and into one giving up 333 ypg... in the middle of the season.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:19 PM ^
This is a valid reason for OSU to be ahead of Michigan right now, but it's not a valid reason for -64 rushing yards in two weeks (with one of those games that was giving up 200 +yards to almost everyone that they faced).
Also, I don't see Hoke developing jack shit. The team isn't getting better. They are regressing badly.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:20 PM ^
We are progressively getting worse do to the fact we have no depth. Gardner is really banged up and we have lost a lot of starters and two deep. Remember a true Freshman who missed almost his entire senior season of HS football is our backup QB.
Our problems start with the offense. The problems of the offense is mainly within the interior line. WE ARE REALLY YOUNG. It's not an excuse it's a simple fact. You can't talk about the developement of players when they are true freshman, RS freshman, and a walk-on RS soph. Offensive line is by far the hardest position on the field in terms of strength needed as well as a mental understanding. Teams are exploiting that weakness, and there is little coaching can do about it.
We lost our #2 WR in a position group that was weak to begin with. Moving Funchess to the outside helped a little. Outside of that, we have a banged up Dileo, and it really falls off from there! We can spread it out but our options are Jackson and ?. Are they really a viable option at WR?
If you have never played college football, then you have no idea how hard it is to be a student athlete. These kids are not professional athletes. They have a lot of responsiblity and pressure on them. Football and schoool takes up 95% of there waking hours.
Eventually the depth will be there and the young kids who are now starting, will be solid performers in the next couple of years.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:24 PM ^
Young players get better. That's how a learning curve works.
Our young players aren't getting better. Nobody is.
And our interior line was dogshit last year with three fifth year seniors on it. Our staff can't teach people how to block. Period.
November 11th, 2013 at 3:51 PM ^
See my post below. Kill inherited a worse situation at MN and is actually improving his players and record every year. I am tired of hearing about youth, etc. when we have a prime example in our division of a coach overcoming this allegedly insurmountable obstacles (with even less talent and same level of youth)
November 11th, 2013 at 12:19 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 12:53 PM ^
I must say that I agree with you. For a while, I was under the belief of the OP, but no longer. I need to know why the hell the buckeyes lose their favorite coach ever, have one bad year (2011, 6-7...though that isn't anywhere near our 3-9), THEN hire the second best college coach in the country, and then win 21 in a row (or however many it is). Why does that happen to them but not us? I don't believe in religion, angels, ghosts, demons, whatever - but I am really starting to believe there are some special forces working against our Wolverines.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:22 PM ^
So the difference between the two programs at this point could be directly related to recruiting.no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,
November 11th, 2013 at 12:24 PM ^
While I agree with most of what you said, it appears we are getting worse as the season progresses, which is alarming.
And while Hoke may be the guy, he may be able to develop talent well, etc. there's just not much evidence right now that would make me feel that he has that ability right now.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:39 PM ^
As Hoke's tenure progresses. Not just this season.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:27 PM ^
Why are we measuring ourselves compared to Ohio State? That ship has sailed, my friends. We are light years behind a team that hasn't lost in 1.5 seasons. OSU is one of the best programs in the country. After the last 4 games I think we need to find a new measuring stick.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:38 PM ^
Regular Ohio?
November 11th, 2013 at 3:54 PM ^
Golden Gophers - Kill took over same year as Hoke, in our division, and that staff inherited way less in terms of talent and recruiting than Brady and friends. If Gophers are too high of a mark let's just fold the team
November 11th, 2013 at 12:34 PM ^
Even if it's all about youth and recruiting as the apologists claim, and even if we can get to manball perfection at every position, it doesn't guarantee that we will be anything but second best in our crappy league anyways. That's what is right now being exposed. If we can't even figure out a scheme to get +1 yard rushing against Nebraska's porous defense, would it really matter if Hoke had Stanford or even Alabama's roster when we play OSU or team's of equal talent? We can stockpile all we want and crap on the rest of the shitty B1G, but Meyer will run circles around this staff and if we do have to face an SEC team of greater talent (LSU, Alabama)- forget about it. Meyer is a smarter and sleazier Tressel. If Lloyd couldnt beat Jim, why should we believe Hoke can beat Meyer?
November 11th, 2013 at 12:48 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 1:06 PM ^
He cheated on his wife with a grad assistant at Florida and had lawyers on staff at Florida to get players out of trouble with the law. He's a win at all costs coach. Michigan Man Les Miles is also sleazy, and either would still be sleazy if our coach. And I would take either in a heartbeat. We are running a football program, not a monestary.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:49 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 2:11 PM ^
I was reading on my phone and missed the last part of your post, which I largely agree with. Actually the entire tone of your post I misread. Still would like some hard evidence but hey I don't really care what someone does in their personal time.
November 11th, 2013 at 8:23 PM ^
even with Miles at Oklahoma State it's he said, she said. Smoke/Fire. There's a lot around this guy, from the way he left Florida, the rumors that followed, all the arrests and character issues on that team, to having lawyers they jokingly called the defensive MVP in the athletic department. Could it all be circumstance and rumor, perhaps, but very hard to buy...and those arrest numbers don't lie. But again, I dont give a shit, he wins and plays big boy football. Something I would welcome in Ann Arbor, even with a side of sleaze.
November 12th, 2013 at 7:25 PM ^
Even if true, having lawyers defend you/get you off for criminal activity is what every human in the world does when they're charged with a crime. Why is it so horrifying if a football coach does this?
November 11th, 2013 at 5:01 PM ^
the fact that he didn't oversign while at Florida when basically every decent team in the SEC was (save Georgia) is a fact that suggests a moral compass. Most of the rest of the supposed sleazy Meyer backdrop is internet gossip and not fact--which we choose to believe cuz we don't like him. The rumors may well be true--I certainly don't know--but certainly not like Calipari--with Worldwide Wes and a trail of probations. At least we appear to have put to sleep the meme (at the time he was hired at OSU) that he isn't a good coach.
November 11th, 2013 at 6:39 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 12:42 PM ^
This is up there with everyone praying for Narduzzi to get a head coaching job somewhere. This would explain losing to Ohio State. This doesn't explain rushing for -64 yards over two weeks, once against an awful Nebraska defense. I've never seen something as ridiculous as that, and that's mostly because any team previously capable of that does not get put on television.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:38 PM ^
Scarecrows and garbage cans could do a better job blocking than our o-line. At least they could impede rushers.
That has nothing to do with recruiting.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:42 PM ^
The real question is, When does the basketball team play again?
November 11th, 2013 at 12:43 PM ^
"So the difference between the two programs at this point could be directly related to recruiting."
Come on... not even close. It's all the things the coaching staff does with the program that makes it great. Even with all 2-stars we should have a signature win against a top-ranked team somewhere in three years. We have not done that, and we are terrible on the road. This is not about recruiting. We have amazing athletes.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:55 PM ^
Ok, how many top 10 opportunities have we had in 3 years of shitty Big play? Alabama doesnt count and we came close vs. Ohio last year.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:41 PM ^
Let's walk before we run.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^
I dont think we are getting worse. Other than Gardner scrambling which teams now are prepaired for we have not shown the ability all year to run the ball. We saw this against Bad/ MAC teams and ND and UCONN. Now we are playing upper level B1G teams and it is really standing out. The compotition level is better and teams are prepaired better for us. We are not getting better but we never were very good to start with.
November 11th, 2013 at 12:56 PM ^
I did a diary earlier in the year which shows perhaps a little insight into this. Taking the numbers before attrition, you find that recruit at a pace and quality reasonably competitive with Ohio State. Here is the 2002-2013 data using Rivals' database:
As I said, that's before attrition, and the attrition has created holes in the depth chart where there shouldn't be any. We can compete for quality, but there were other issues secondary to recruiting obviously that made the 2010 class problematic. Even so, I don't know if the depth of the problem (see what I did there?) right now is entirely explained by those issues.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:01 PM ^
Sorry, but Alabama does count and so does MSU, and OSU. MSU is an example of a tough team. They're tougher than we are. Look, it's very obvious that we we can't even "manball" the weak teams. Plenty of teams, with much worse recruiting that UM have been able to step up and do this, and gain wins against their rivals with weaker, much weaker, recruiting. Stanford 2007-2013 is a good example. So, what is the difference then, why is it we can't fight our way out of the funk? We have excellent athletes. We should be better.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:03 PM ^
Urban is 7-1 in bowls, won 2 National Championships and didn't even bother to bring his own coaching staff to OSU in going 21-0.
There is no need to mitigate or qualify this.
Meyer had a clause in his Florida and Utah contracts that he would not have to pay his buyout if he left for Michigan, OSU or Notre Dame.
While Carr deserved to stay as long as he pleased, who knows?, we might've been able to get him ourseleves had Carr retired a season or two earlier. Ironic that Carr handed Meyer his only bowl loss too.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:39 PM ^
Urban Meyer has won everywhere he's gone.
Since 2003, when Meyer took over Utah and Hoke started his tenure at Ball State, Urban's had two undefeated seasons, and three 1-loss seasons. He's won a championship in two conferences and would have gotten his first Big Ten championship last year had they been eligible. He's won two national titles.
Hoke had one year with one loss, and in that good season he lost in the conference championship by 3 touchdowns. His best season at Michigan saw a loss to 7-6 Iowa and a drubbing by MSU.
When Urban Meyer goes to a recruit he says, I've coached the number draft pick in the country, I've won multiple national titles, I've coached a Heisman trophy winner. When Hoke talks to a recruit he says, Michigan is great. Tom Brady played here. Here's Greg Mattison. Greg, take it away.
November 11th, 2013 at 1:53 PM ^
you forgot the "Fergodsakes."
November 11th, 2013 at 3:57 PM ^
Winner. Wonder how Michigan jersey sales are doing in Ohio right about now...
November 11th, 2013 at 7:17 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 1:51 PM ^
can provide some evidence to explain things.
Hoke, Borges, and Funk are getting roasted daily by UM fans everywhere, and even defensive assistants like Mattison and Mallory have been criticized, fairly or not.
Given that, why is the S&C staff exempt from scrutiny? Is there any evidence that our players are stronger, faster, quicker, or better-conditioned than any of our opponents on a team-wide basis?
November 11th, 2013 at 3:36 PM ^
Is Wellman a Hoke buddy and therefore "untouchable"
November 11th, 2013 at 1:55 PM ^
Urban is sooo lucky. He hasn't lost a game yet, so he hasn't had to face any adversity. What a fraud.
/s
November 11th, 2013 at 3:29 PM ^
Hahaha! I loved this. Thank you!
November 11th, 2013 at 2:17 PM ^
November 11th, 2013 at 2:29 PM ^
When Meyer first arrived at OSU and called his first meeting at 6:00 AM, a bunch of guys missed it. A few were late for a second meeting. One story circulating is that Meyer promptly moved the whole team out of the locker room and told them that they had to earn their way back. He then started conditioning at 5 AM outdoors in the snow and 10 deg weather in response, and told everyone that they were going to make every class, work their A**es off under Marotti and if they missed anything, they would be running at 5 AM whether it was snowing, raining or whatever. If they wanted to quit, that was fine with him. Marotti had the team lose more than 455 pounds of fat before spring ball in 2012 and replaced it with 500 pounds of muscle. The offensive line alone was responsible for nearly 150 pounds of lost fat. But that was really just the beginning of the entire system he has installed at OSU.
November 11th, 2013 at 2:53 PM ^
…flat out a great coach. Team building, whether you have no-star, two-star or 4-star recruits is what coaches do. It shows on the field. It's not just Meyer, but the total coaching package, from the men at the top down to the strength and conditioning coaches. Meyer has performed every place he coached. His teams are tough. He’s done this at OSU. OSU gets great athletes but we have just as good athletes as OSU. We lack toughness and cohesiveness. This is on the coaches. Harbaugh built up his system, like this, at Stanford. It’s my opinion that we don’t have that cohesiveness at UM now and it has nothing to do with the quality of our athletes.
November 11th, 2013 at 2:59 PM ^
for the ridiculously drawn out process. RR should have been fired after Ohio giving the new HC plenty of time to recruit. That said, Brandon probably thought he needed to wait for Harbaugh and/or Hoke to be able coach their bowl games. Ohio of course did not have to deal with that issue as Urban was conveniently sitting in the broadcast booth after bailing on Florida.
In other words we got screwed by trying to do the right thing while Ohio and Urban benefitted from being the scumbag selves that they are.