Run blocking to pass block?

Submitted by brad on
Let’s say you had a couple offensive linemen who killed it as run blockers and struggled as pass blockers. Is there any sense in inventing a “pass blocking” scheme that just allows those two guys to drive block two D linemen while everyone else pass blocks? Clean up the collateral damage caused by this approach with a fullback? Just wondering if something like that has ever been tried or worked before.
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Yabadabablue

November 7th, 2017 at 12:21 AM ^

From what I remember JBB was around five yards or so. Easy call to make. Lineman have to have awareness on the play action and know when to let up. Hit them with and couple hard steps than hold your ground by transitioning to pass pro. If you blow a DT off the line, chances are he is not going to be able to get anywhere near the QB. Easier said than done though but these schemes are used a lot.

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CarrIsMyHomeboy

November 6th, 2017 at 11:30 PM ^

My understanding is that the convention provides an important expectation for the defense when reading the play: if any OL steps downfield, a pass is impossible. That OL doesn't actually have to be doing direct damage or be occupying a LB or DB (wondering whether they need to cover him) in order for his downfield position to be a disadvantage for the defense.

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1VaBlue1

November 6th, 2017 at 11:53 PM ^

The same holds for recievers.  WR and TE cannot block more than 3 yards beyond the LOS unless its a running play.  That is what is never called - and what a lot of coaches counts on with RPO based offenses.  The WR mesh at 3 yds can catch a lot of safties.  Especially whan that mesh hits at 4-6 yds and/or picks a DB - because it's not called.

This is a large reason that Chip Kelly's offense failed miserably in the NFL.  In the NFL, WRs cannot go beyond 1 yard when blocking - so virtually no run sell on pass plays.

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Michigan4Life

November 7th, 2017 at 12:05 AM ^

didn't fail miserably. Look at KC and Philadelphia offense this season. They run a lot of college concepts yet they're in top 10 in DVOA.

Houston Texans also runs a lot of college concepts with Deshaun Watson (before he got hurt) and they're 8th in DVOA. That was with a slow start this season.

I see a lot of RPO plays, triple option, shovel pass, etc. Chip Kelly's influence is still strong in the NFL.

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Yinka Double Dare

November 7th, 2017 at 2:57 PM ^

They used to, but Reid and Pedersen have both incorporated a ton of the college option concepts this year and they're beating the crap out of people.

The best NFL offenses have practically been passing spreads for several years now (especially using a blocky-catchy guy who is mostly a catchy guy - Gronk, Kelce, Jimmy Graham when he was in NO, Ertz in this PHI offense, etc). West Coast isn't really much of a thing these days. 

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dragonchild

November 7th, 2017 at 9:35 AM ^

it's best understood if you adopt a "this is why we can't have nice things" mentality, a.k.a. "how do you abuse the crap out of this loophole".

It's illegal because O-linemen releasing downfield on pass plays would obliterate defenders in zone coverage, which they can indeed do just by standing in the right spot.  The linebackers and safeties are following receivers trusting that the offensive line is further upfield so they can blindside themselves into guys 50-100 pounds heavier than them.  It's quite dangerous.

Of course they very rarely call it these days so linemen are back to sneaking 5-6 yards downfield and "accidentally" getting in the way of defenders.  Unless it's Michigan doing it, in which case JBB gets a whistle for wandering aimlessly downfield while the QB throws to an out route.

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Yabadabablue

November 6th, 2017 at 11:07 PM ^

Lineman can block down and guards can pull. Play action has to be sold with what looks like run blocking. That’s what gets the linebackers to false step towards the line of scrimmage. Lineman just can not release downfield. O line has to have awareness

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Big Blue in WI

November 6th, 2017 at 11:00 PM ^

May be an option on a very limited number of quick, short passes...but would probably be a disaster for anything that requires the qb survey the field and attempt to push the ball downfield.

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bklein09

November 6th, 2017 at 11:11 PM ^

Opening up a gap on a pass play is not ideal for a pocket.

If an opposing team picked up on it, they would just send a LB into the gap and then it’s Thundersack time.

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ST3

November 6th, 2017 at 11:20 PM ^

We roll out to the left behind Bredeson and Cole on every passing play. Or better yet, bring in the long snapper and have the QB stand 13 yards behind the line of scrimmage. That should give him enough time to get the pass off. /s

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OwenGoBlue

November 7th, 2017 at 12:46 AM ^

Try this vs a speed rush and you'll see brand new levels of thundersack. Blitzing and stunts would also be unstoppable vs an effectively 3-man pocket. This is not viable. On the interior some guys can be more aggressive in getting a punch to engage/disrupt before they can be beaten with finesse, but they still need exceptional recovery skills for it to work consistently and that's in a tighter area with protection on either side vs generally slower players.

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stephenrjking

November 7th, 2017 at 3:28 PM ^

Agree. And it gets worse than just technique flaws--a guy charging forward can be erased by a stunt or a zone blitz, eliminating himself from a play while affecting no defenders at all. If JBB tried to downblock a 3-4 OLB and that OLB dropped into a zone while a MLB or DB blitzed in, that's a total disaster for the OL occurring 5 yards behind a now useless OL. 

I'm not a pro here, so take what I say with a shaker of salt. But I believe that runblocking works the way it does in part because the place the defenders need to get to is nearer to the LOS. There are occasional exceptions where a guy knifes in and snuffs out a play 5 yards in the backfield, but most runs make it to within a yard of the LOS before the defense gets there.

This means that an OL can effectively block a defender by occupying space that was to his side prior to the snap. When an OL "walls off" a defender he prevents the defender from accessing the hole that the runner is passing through. However, that defender could if he chose run freely downhill into the backfield. This is an acceptable and even desirable outcome in runs that cannot be applied to passing plays where the QB drops back into space a defender can still target when blocked laterally.

Shaker of salt. 

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FatGuyTouchdown

November 7th, 2017 at 1:01 AM ^

When running a playaction, some teams will have specific downblocking assignments, for example, against a 3-4, some teams will have the weakside guard downblock the nose while the center takes the outside half of the defender to provide a semi decent blocking surface, usually resulting in a pancake, due to the favorable angle. Against a 4-3, the strongside or weakside tackle (Never Both) will sometimes be asked to down block a 3 tech, while the guard takes the inside half of the 3 tech. This works especially well on play action because safeties and linebackers that read the offensive line for a run pass call will sometimes be fooled by the OL action. Downside is a heavy blitz gets home more frequently, due to there being a gap, but a lot of that can be covered up by a good sell of the run. 

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OkinawaGoBlue

November 7th, 2017 at 8:29 AM ^

as an O lineman in high school, we were taught to fire off the ball to sell it like a run, then go into pass blocking. Seems to me in addition to doing this to sell run on play action passes as you mention, it would give the O linemen a bit of forward leverage and help the pass blocking.  Most of the time you see the tackles take a big dropstep backward as the first move to pass protect.  I would think they have minimal leverage against a D lineman who is full speed forward into or around them..

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readyourguard

November 7th, 2017 at 6:33 AM ^

I don't think so (If I'm understanding your question)

Everyone on a Power run has important responsibilities, especially the backside who are responsible for creating cut back lanes

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bacon

November 7th, 2017 at 7:35 AM ^

Just teach the O linemen to do both. Or find guys who can do both. It’s not worth compromising on what you do as a team because a couple of guys can’t execute it.

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Kevin14

November 7th, 2017 at 9:51 AM ^

How much overlap is there in the skillset between run blocking and pass blocking?  

To me, it seems like definitely some overlap - strong base, ability to get low and win the point of contact. 

And a decent amount of different skills required - agility, recognizing blitzes/stunts

The question I'm getting at is there a decent chance JBB develops into a compentant pass blocker or does he lack a certain skill set that will get him there?

 

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Reader71

November 7th, 2017 at 2:11 PM ^

Very little overlap. It’s akin to offense vs defense. Run blocking is about beating your man and moving him. Pass protection is about moving yourself so that you aren’t beaten until the ball comes out. Totally different skills needed. Can he become a good protector? Yeah, but it won’t have much to do with his run blocking ability. It’s a separate ability.

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stephenrjking

November 7th, 2017 at 4:18 PM ^

RPO = Run Pass Option. That is, a play in which there is a (almost always short) pass route running at the same time as legitimate run action. The QB reads a defender and decides whether to hand off or throw.

RPS = Rock Paper Scissors. Refers to those situations in which a playcall works (or doesn't work) because the other team ran the perfect (or worst possible) play for that call. For example, a run directly to a space that a zone blitz happens to be vacating. Or, conversely, a defensive call that overloads the side of the line the offense was trying to attack. 

Since, like Rock Paper Scissors, the teams do not know each other's calls prior to the snap (at least in theory), this refers to the somewhat random nature of those situations. Not every play involves a team getting an advantage in RPS, but some do. Everybody wins a few and loses a few during the games; it is thought that the best playcallers consistently win more than the opponents. 

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