Penalties and Turnovers (Lack of on D)

Submitted by Raback Omaba on
Won't beat a dead horse here - today was extremely disappointing but I'm confident we will come out ready moving forward and change the tide on this rivalry. I would like to make two observations that I really think hurt our team big time this year. 1) Penalties - I don't think I've ever watched a Michigan team commit so many penalties, some of which were momentum changing (roughing kicker today.) It seems like every game we were good for 3-4 pre snap penalties on both sides of the ball, not to mention other penalties as well. I will agree that we were on the bad side overall of some pretty bad officiating this year, but we did get a Lo of legit, bonehead and drive stalling penalties. Is it just me, or have others noticed? Perhaps harbaugh used to how the NFL is called? This needs to be worked out. 2) Lack of Turnovers for our D - aside from a few games (and certainly today, where we got outclassed) our D played well. Yet, I didn't seem to see us force many TOs - both MSU and OSU came out of the BigHouse with zero TOs, which is nuts. Is this just dumb luck on our opponents part, or is it something to do with our scheme? Just curious to see what everyone else thought and if anyone agrees with me, or if I am reading too into it. I just couldn't stop banging my head against the wall all year watching these games and the penalties that kept happening. Overall a B season, something to build on... But we really need to beat our rivals next year.

MgoHacker

November 28th, 2015 at 5:33 PM ^

Seriously. I don't know if it's the players or just bad luck but where are the interceptions. The Deep ball td hill stood there and watched while he could've made a play on the ball. I feel like the players are trying to not mess up rather than make plays




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I Like Burgers

November 28th, 2015 at 8:37 PM ^

I pointed this out well before the season (Michigan has been one of the worst in the country at generating TOs the last several years) and said it was a byproduct of years of shit coaching and recruiting and got raked over the coals and neg bombed to hell for it.

Turnovers are semi-random but years of failing at making them happen are not. There's a combination of not recruiting athletes with the instincts to go for the pick or strip or forced fumble and coaches not emphasizing that. I'd expect as the years go on and we recruit better athletes with better instincts and coach them up you'll see an uptick in TOs.




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UofMfanJJ (not verified)

November 28th, 2015 at 5:38 PM ^

I just got home from the game. I am absolutely and utterly defeated, I feel as if my soul has been ripped from my body.

Goggles Paisano

November 28th, 2015 at 5:39 PM ^

I've been saying the same thing for several weeks now.  Too many penalties (mental error type) and not forcing turnovers.  Very few fumbles forced and very few picks.  Those two things kept teams in games all year against us.  I don't know if our record would be any different though.  

Oscar

November 28th, 2015 at 5:48 PM ^

We have been minus our top two nose tackles.  Teams were able to exploit this.  It will be ok, the future of Michigan football looks bright.

evenyoubrutus

November 28th, 2015 at 7:41 PM ^

Top 3 if you include Pipkins. But being thin at one spot should not have lead to THAT. Our linebacker play is terrible this year, and it has been exposed since we got thin on the D line. I don't get it. We have 3 seniors and a junior, and Durkin is their position coach. There is no reason that should be the weakest spot on defense.

jsquigg

November 28th, 2015 at 9:02 PM ^

But it leads to that because it exposed the LBs which is our weakness.  Hsving the deep defensive line allowed UM to dominate the line of scrimmage and keep the LBs clean.  Losing so many linemen led to extended snaps which made us less dominant with LBs who are horrid when not allowed to play uncovered.  I think if the D-Line gets deeper next year the defense will be fine, but the second the line gets thin it will expose the LBs again next year.  I would love to see UM pull in some athletic, smart LBs, because while ultimately the lines determine the line of scrimmage, having excellent LB play can cover a multitude of sins the same way that a deep, dominant d-line can and did for UM.

JTrain

November 28th, 2015 at 5:48 PM ^

SEE INDIANA FILM. SEE OHIO STATE FILM.
We can't stop that inside run play. MSU could. WE CANT.
I'm not a troll but the difference between last week at Ohio and this week here wasn't even close.
I'm no coach but their RB or QB was in our second level and our LB's were tied up and owned before we knew what hit us. Not a rocket scientist (Space coyote) but I'm gonna put the difference between us and them in our lines. Both sides of the ball. We got owned.




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JOHNNAVARREISMYHERO

November 28th, 2015 at 5:52 PM ^

Same thing we do everytime we go after a punt.  Rough the punter.

These are still the same conference refs people.  Anything iffy gets called.

A comically stupid decision to go for a punt block there when we hadn't attacked punts for weeks.  

Also, we never made a single drive stop after that.  Well one, if you include when we were down 30 and it was a meaningless drive.

To top it off, we block a meaningless punt - same shit as us converting a joke 2 point conversion in that bowl game debacle against Kansas State.

Brown Bear

November 28th, 2015 at 6:03 PM ^

We have had zero luck the past few years when it comes to turnovers. How many fumbles have bounced the wrong way? How many tipped passes go to the wrong hands or InT's that slip out of a defenders grasp?
Only one conclusion
AMTHG




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alum96

November 28th, 2015 at 6:53 PM ^

I am with TaiS

INTs are on DBs to make - we have had oppts we drop.  I see other teams make those same plays.  Some DBs make catches that look like outstanding Wrs - meanwhile we've dropped a few this year that have hit DB hands.

Also fumbles are partly luck (where the ball falls after it leaves the hands) but we dont cause many at all.  I mean maybe 3-4x all year where opponent ball hit the ground.  So yeah maybe we were 1/4 (recovered v caused) but that denominator has to be a lot bigger.  We dont strip or target the ball well - for whatever reason. 

Penalties werent an issue until these last 4 games, esp pre snap. No idea what suddenly happened.  False start and offsides esp really turned awful late.

I Like Burgers

November 28th, 2015 at 11:55 PM ^

Brief period from 2011-12 where things were good, but its been bad for a while.

 

Forced Fumble Stats for Michigan

2015 -- 5 FF (114th nationally)

2014 -- 5 (122)

2013 -- 8 (102)

2012 -- 12 (61)

2011 -- 13 (21)

2010 -- 6 (112)

2009 -- 9 (89)

2008 -- 15 (23)

 

Subpar talent and bad coaching will do that to you.  Gonna take a few more seasons to wash out the Hoke stink.

991GT3

November 28th, 2015 at 6:05 PM ^

and still lost. OSU is a far superior team. The reality is Michigan is the third best team in the B1G. MSU is better. They played us with half of their OL out and a defense still thrying to learn pass coverage. But being third best is quite an accomplishment considering what the talent level is.

Average offensive line;

Running backs who run as though their feet are in concrete;

A  average transfer QB trying to learn a new system;

An average DL;

Below average LB's

Given what the coaching staff had to work with, it was a very successful season.

991GT3

November 28th, 2015 at 6:32 PM ^

not decidely better. I also think OSU is better than MSU. Weather was a huge factor in the MSU win over OSU.

Regarding the defensive line, when you comparte the DL of OSU, MSU and PSU, they are better. Losing a NT should not cause the entire implosion of the defensive line. A quick tempo offensive with a running QB is something that Michigan cannot handle. It is what it is. Hope the bowl opponent uses a pro offensive.

BlueCube

November 29th, 2015 at 8:02 AM ^

The MSU theory was the refs aren't going to throw a flag every play. That was what we all said we needed to do to keep up. It has proven true by your own comment.

Let's not criticize the thing that has made the MSU defense dominant the last several years.

There are too many penalties but how many of them were things like Hackenberg faking the snap to draw us offsides until Harbaugh pointed out the rule to the referees?

I think it's a joke that people think Harbaugh is unprepared and doesn't know the rulebook going into a game. I'm not sure why Glasgow has so many offsides but the last I checked the rulebook doesn't allow the coaches to play for the players and it falls on the players. You then have a choice to pull the player or play him anyway and the staff obviously felt he needed to be out there.

west2

November 28th, 2015 at 6:19 PM ^

but think some of the penalty problems are the difference between the NFL and college refing coupled with some really one sided refing as in the MSU game.   Also the matchup problems exposed in the Indy game were worse today with the better talent of OSU as predicted by Brian.   But then OSU is largely the same group that beat bama and a talented Oregon team last year to win the NC.  Actually now that I am over the initial shock of this game I realize that harbaugh has done more with less here.  He is using another coaches players and winning mostly.  I am really optimistic about next season and going forward.   

jackw8542

November 28th, 2015 at 6:58 PM ^

The replay made it very clear that he caught the kicker's leg while he was still fully extended.  It was as clear a roughing the kicker call as any could be.

The DBs are taught to watch the receiver until it appears the ball is about to arrive, but (1) on the TD, it certainly seemed like Clark had seen the ball but did nothing to try to actually tip the ball away until after it was in the receiver's hands and that Delano Hill just watched while doing nothing and (2) on the PI, Jourdan Lewis was in a much better position to catch the ball than the receiver and never even looked.  If you don't see the ball, how can you intercept it?

NRK

November 28th, 2015 at 10:33 PM ^

Agreed on the roughing - if they're going to call that they're going to call that. 

 

I think if he doesn't hit his own guy and go down though that might not get called. The contact itself by UM was really subtle. but flying into his guy and falling made it look worse to be called on the field. It took VERY slow mo to even see the contact.

 

But there was contact on an extended leg so I can't really complain.