OT: Netflix "Making a Murderer"

Submitted by 608Monroe on
Mods: Please feel free to delete if you feel this content is created a little too close to game time.

Had a chance to binge "Making a Murderer" this week, and can't stop thinking about the outcome of this incredible true-life documentary. I heard about the Steven Avery case when I was still living in Chicago, but had no idea of the controversy -- and outright corruption in the Wisconsin Department of Justice and the Manitowoc County Sherriff's department. Just an absolutely incredible, gut-wrenching story. If you haven't seen it yet, you're missing a difficult yet thought provoking 10-part series.

I'm wondering if any MGoLawyers who have seen the series are able to comment on the proceedings, and whether this could be a thread for discussion.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80000770

Danwillhor

December 28th, 2015 at 9:07 PM ^

rightfully took a huge dump on the system but this sounds like it's the main attraction. I'm interested and love docs so I'll definitely watch. I wonder if it'll enrage me as much as a dead eyed psychopath getting away with 3 murders, one which he was on trial having shot and dismembered his neighbor.....in TEXAS (lol).

In reply to by Joseph_P_Freshwater

ijohnb

December 28th, 2015 at 9:04 PM ^

Rectify on Sundance. It is better than Bloodline and may be the best show on TV right now.

ijohnb

December 28th, 2015 at 9:03 PM ^

anybody is looking for a really really good doc, check out "There is something Wrong with Aunt Dianne" on HBO Go or On Demand. It is about the wrong way Taconic Parkway crash and it is spellbinding and haunting. It is one of the best documentaries I have ever seen.

In reply to by ijohnb

RobM_24

December 28th, 2015 at 9:50 PM ^

I watched that as well. I have no clue what happened there, other than she tried to self-medicate with Vodka bc she didn't have her usual pain meds. Even then, what she did was beyond what I'd think even a drunk person would do (driving the wrong way for 1.7 miles and not even slowing down). I don't think there will even be a commonly accepted theory in that case.

In reply to by ijohnb

RobM_24

December 29th, 2015 at 1:26 PM ^

And all signs point to her being a good mother. They left at like 9AM. It'd take some work to get to the BAC she had. The weird thing was her stopping at the gas station and asking for pain meds. That's what led me to believe she tried to drink some alcohol and probably smoke some weed to self-medicate through pain (maybe from the tooth, and/or a migraine or something). If she wasn't used to drinking, I could see how possibly she drank too much vodka and didn't realize it takes some time to really kick in. However, I don't see how even a drunk & high person could drive 70mph the wrong way for nearly 2 miles with (I assume) children screaming.

lesh2273

December 28th, 2015 at 9:08 PM ^

Finishing episode three as I write this reply...fascinating and disheartening story. Causes me to further question a system I have slowly lost faith in as recent events have unfolded across our country. Extremely unfortunate seeing as I am a high school social studies teacher.

softshoes

December 28th, 2015 at 9:20 PM ^

This is what elected DA's get you. People tend to vote for conviction rate no matter the method. I quit watching when the lawsuit was squashed after the judge ruled for no basis of wrong doing in the first trial. Maybe I get back to it when I cool down some.

AlwaysBlue

December 28th, 2015 at 9:32 PM ^

person but this documentary along with a recent Michigan Supreme Court decision make me agree with the notion that the system is built to protect itself. Of course context is everything and it could well be the courts get a large percentage of their work right. The point is though what they will do to protect their wrongs. They make the bet that you will not have the resources to mount multiple appeals.

Michigan Made

December 28th, 2015 at 9:43 PM ^

two nights ago and started investigating. The series is drumming up support by tens of thousands only days after its initial release. I was infuriated by the complete lack of competency and total disregard of both defendants constitutional rights at every turn on every level of the judicial system in Wisconsin to have been denied appeals for both cases that should have been mistrial from the start. Tampered blood samples, planted evidence, dishonest cops caught in lies. All were disregarded by a jury in which some were convinced the defendants were guilty before the trial started. I'm sending a letter to the state attorney generals office asking how, with all that the defence presented could these people found guilty. A travesty of justice by all definitions.

DTOW

December 28th, 2015 at 9:47 PM ^

I've also watched the documentary.  Keep in mind that this show was filmed from the perspective of the convicted and is obviously biased.  Since it was released there has been some independant people that reviewed the evidence and have said that the documentary leaves out some critical information presumedly in an effort to aid in the convicted's agenda.

Basically, this documentary claims the cops planted evidence on no less than 4 separate occasions and faked an FBI test.  I will agree that some stuff seemed fishy, especially with how it was presented to the viewer, but that just seems like a stretch.

MGoChippewa

December 28th, 2015 at 10:05 PM ^

that the EDTA test had been faked, they alleged that it was A) unreliable in that it can only confirm the presence of EDTA and not confirm with 100% certainty that there isn't EDT in a sample, and B) that it's utterly ridiculous that the FBI managed to get that test together in a matter of weeks, when it took years for DNA evidence that exonerated Steve Avery the first time around to get examined.

westwardwolverine

December 28th, 2015 at 10:06 PM ^

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

What did they leave out? I've heard people say this, but when they are questioned, the person just disappears into the wind. 

The fact that two cops who were being deposed in a 36 million dollar civil suit were around for every key piece of evidence found (Oh hey look! Here's a key in plain view we hadn't seen in our first seven attempts of searching this bedroom!) is beyond suspicious. Or that they couldn't get their stories straight on the stand. 

Or that we're supposed to believe that Steve Avery and/or his nephew (two 70-80 IQ individuals) somehow were smart enough to remove every (and I mean every!) trace of DNA evidence from the garage and trailer where Teresa Halbach was stabbed, raped and shot multiple times, but then were too stupid to hide her vehicle off their property. And oh hey! The vehicle happens to contain a small amount of Steve Avery's blood. You know, a small tampered with vial amount's worth. 

I dunno man, I agree that this was definitely from the point of view of the Avery family and from what I've read about them painted them in a better light than they deserved...but the investigation and the trial seem prettttyyyyyyyyyyyyy shady to me, especially given the history of the family with the police in their county. 

DTOW

December 28th, 2015 at 11:07 PM ^

I guess I haven't really made an attempt to dig into the other side of the story I've just seen the comments on the twittersphere.  I'm not claiming to know whether or not Avery did it or not.  What I do know is that there is evidence showing that he did it and I didn't necessarily find his defense to be "reasonable".  

Again, I don't know if Avery did it.  I don't have access to all of the information.  I generally think that in life the solution to most questions is generally the simplest and its easier for me to believe that he did kill her rather than some ellaborate conspiracy theory undertaken by the police department.  Throw in the fact that this show came out at a time when its easy for people to pile on the police and I can see how people are up in arms.  

I look at it the same way I look at everyone in an uproar over police brutality.  Is there a chance that the cops were in the wrong?  Absolutely.  But lets not act like every ass kicking just magically falls from the sky.

 

RobM_24

December 29th, 2015 at 1:11 AM ^

The bullet in the garage that had her DNA on it was the biggest question mark for me. Up until then, I had my own theory ... He forced her into the back of her SUV while she was packing up her camera or whatever. He hit her over the head, maybe raped/assaulted her (all in the back of the Rav4, where her blood was found). Then he backs the Rav4 to the fire pit. Burns the body, but there's still bone chunks. He walks over and grabs his neighbor/sister's burn barrel from across the yard. He scoops up the fragments he can find into the barrel then takes them to the gravel pit to discard them. He slices his finger on the rusty barrel while dumping it. Puts the barrel back. Hops in the car to move it, with the finger bleeding. Parks the car in a line of junk cars. Wipes down the steering wheel and door, but can't get the blood out of the cloth seat -- and doesn't noticed he touched blood to the dash while inserting the keys up under the steering wheel. He can't crush the car without his family members noticing bc they are all getting home from school/work, and it'd be suspicious to crush a car during non-work hours. So he parks it until he can do it later, and covers it up with wood and brush. The girl gets reported missing, that one cop illegally looks through the junkyard roads. He spots the Rav4, but can't say anything or it'd be inadmissible in court bc of the illegal search. So he calls in to dispatch and has the odd convo about the license plate number and color/make of the car. He knows he's found it, but can't do anything, so he waits until the next day and tips the search party leaders (bro & ex-bf) where to look exactly. The search party finds it immediately, and even knew to bring a camera. Since they had permission to search by Avery's brother, the search is legit and the cops have their probable cause to arrest Avery and search the property legally. Avery had a huge bon fire that night to cover up the fact that he had an earlier fire to torch a body. However, he didn't remove all the fragments so they find some anyway. They also find some in the barrel he used to transport them, as well as in the gravel pit he dumped them at. He had the keys hidden behind his nightstand or whatever that was, bc he'd need them again when it was time to crush the car or move it. He just never had time to bc he was caught first. There's no blood inside or anywhere around his house, bc he did everything right in the back of the SUV. The only thing I have no clue about is the garage bullet. (/takes off Sherlock Holmes hat)

MICHandCHIPS

December 29th, 2015 at 2:30 AM ^

This is actually pretty impressive, I'll play devils advocate just for fun, and I truly think he's innocent although your story is legit. It's a thought provoking take on it, for sure.

What's up with the tampered blood vial? The key (shady) detective knew where it was and clearly somebody took some out. And the cut on his finger they photographed during his immediate questioning was scabbed over and old (had been healing for some time). And they searched 7(!) times and they never found the key prior, plus he had months to get rid of it between all those searches and didn't?

The bullet and skull fragments suggest somebody shot her in the head but not a shred of blood splatter is found anywhere on his property, which would have been massive with a headshot.

I assume you can atleast agree Brandon had nothing to do with it and the cops basically conned him into this weird confession story. My blood was boiling during those "interrogations". They were forcing this simple kid into writing down their story via confusing him and made him sign it.

RobM_24

December 29th, 2015 at 3:21 AM ^

I was upset about Brendon as well -- on two fronts. (1) That they coached him into a confession and (2) that they tried him as a competent adult. He should have either been viewed as a minor, or as an adult with mental disabilities. Even if he did participate, I don't think it was bc it was something he wanted to do, but rather he was "forced" to by a person he saw as an authoritative figure (his uncle). As for the crime scene, the key and the bullet both stuck out to me. One theory of mine is that it was planted. However, not bc the police killed that girl and framed him, but rather they knew he was guilty and wanted to make sure it stuck. They wanted some tangible evidence tied to him directly inside the two buildings on that huge lot that were solely his. Maybe the key was actually there the whole time. It's possible that he stuck it in the narrow void between the back of the furniture and the wall. They claimed that furniture wasn't moved (IIRC) until the time they found that key. So maybe when they picked it up or turned it, they key came out, I dunno. That is at least plausible. The bullet is a complete mystery. How do you get a bullet in the garage with her DNA on it, yet no blood anywhere -- on all that junk in there, in the porous concrete, in the seams of the concrete that they jackhammered. I can't think of any way that the bullet got there with DNA on it, unless it was planted. The only thing I can think of is that the DNA was transfered onto the bullet at a lab or something while being tested with other evidence. That's a huge leap, but so is the thought of him shooting her and cleaning up every speck of blood from that garage (yet leaving shell casings and the murder bullet). If she was shot, I'm guessing he would have done it right at the firepit where he was going to burn her. That might be why he had the bigger bon fire at night, to make sure he burned up all the blood and anything he might've missed in the earlier fire, and to create a new layer of soot and ash over the top. As for the vial, no clue. But that stuff was laying around since the 80's I believe, and it was laying in the open cardboard box on top of a file cabinet or whatever (IIRC). So there was a large timeframe for somebody to tamper with it for God knows what reason. I really wish they would've tested more samples of that blood to see if it had any of that chemical agent in it. That was really the make of break piece of evidence. Otherwise, maybe he just partially opened up that scab on his finger when he was moving the body or burn barrel. I really don't think cops killed that girl. I do think they might've aided in making sure the charge stuck by planting seriously important evidence. So the question becomes if it wasn't Avery, the Cops, or Brendon, then who was it? I'd point to another Avery family member who works/lives on that junkyard compound, the ex-bf, or the roommate. It had to be someone that was on the junkyard grounds and saw her, or someone that knew she was going to be there and used that info to frame Steven.

joeyb

January 5th, 2016 at 2:28 PM ^

What I didn't get about Brandon is why they didn't use the closing arguments from the DA as proof that the state didn't think Brandon was involved. They say "one man and one man only" and the DA points out that the evidence doesn't suggest that anything happened inside the house, which directly contradicts his confession. The DA used two contradicting sets of evidence to convict two people of the same crime.

Ihatebux

December 29th, 2015 at 9:52 AM ^

They didn't find any of Thresa's blood in the Rav4 if I remember right.  The license plate was NOT on the car.

As someone else said, how did this dumb guy clean the car so well and after he cleaned the car of all her blood, why was he so dumb to leave just a few drops of his own blood.

Oh btw, if he killed her in the car and moved her in the car why did the dumb nephew say she was murdered in the trailer?

RobM_24

December 29th, 2015 at 1:04 PM ^

There was blood in the back of the Rav4. It even looked like it had hair patterns on it (like blood soaked hair brushed the blood against the sidewall of the cargo area of the Rav4). All signs point to her definitely being in the back of her own SUV at one point (while being bloody). I'm not sure if the license plate was on the car or not when the search party found it. I'm guessing not, bc they read the VIN to ID it over the phone. That's a good point, but like I said, I'm just trying to find any possibly way that any of the evidence adds up. I don't think the nephew did anything at all. I think he was entirely coached and just started agreeing and making stuff up. His story had to supporting evidence, bc there would be blood everywhere. The only thing that made sense in his story was the bon fire, but it was Halloween, so a bon fire seems like a normal activity for him to be invited to on that night.

westwardwolverine

December 29th, 2015 at 10:23 AM ^

Only thing: Wasn't there several days in between the time she was taking picture to the time she was reported missing? So he could have easily crushed the car at some point in the next 72 hours correct? 

Its funny (in a gallows humor way) that you were able to come up with a 100x more plausible scenario than Kratz. 

thebrand

January 4th, 2016 at 11:22 PM ^

Really solid sleuthing. The bullet jumped out to me too as a really important piece of evidence (the forensics contamination there was always just a red herring). I agree it seems absolutely farfetched that Avery could have killed Halbach in his garage without leaving a trace of evidence save for a single discharged bullet with her DNA on it (the bullet was discharged, and smashed into the concrete, right?). I wonder if it could have been possible he handled that bullet and others while commiting the murder somewhere else, say reloading his gun, and then he fired it some time later in the garage, thereby inadvertantly planting the evidence himself.

RobM_24

December 28th, 2015 at 10:01 PM ^

If you want another good Netflix documentary from a similar genre, check out "Dear Zachary". It's very well done -- with parts that will leave you fighting back tears, and parts that'll make you hate the system.

UNCWolverine

December 29th, 2015 at 1:37 AM ^

Just finished all ten the last 36 hours. I ALMOST posted something similar last night. Unbelievable. Every person from the sheriff's department and DA's department should go immediately to jail without passing go. I want to punch them all in the face.

Jon06

December 29th, 2015 at 5:24 AM ^

My wife and I are trying to watch this but midway through episode 2 I can't see how there's enough material for another 8 episodes. I don't mean to sound crass, but does it get more interesting?

RobM_24

December 29th, 2015 at 1:20 PM ^

I watched the first HBO Documentary about the Memphis Three, I think called "Paradise Lost." Making a Murderer is way better bc of all the evidence presented. The West Memphis Three has more to do with stereotyping people, and accusing people bc they are "different". There are some similarities though, such as confessions (likely false) by children that are mentally challenged.

azian6er

December 29th, 2015 at 10:50 AM ^

this doc also enraged me - as it was intended to do. Viewed from the perspective of an attorney - I find it very hard to believe that the case was as one sided as the doc made it seem.

I recently read an article stating that the prosecutor in both cases stated that 80-90% of the physical evidence was witheld from the doc and that obviously it was made to enflame the public. Properly done police work isn't as newsworthy or enticing as a man framed twice along with his developmentally delayed nephew.

Also, completely irrelevant to the Avery cases, the prosecutor was later disciplined by the WI bar for sexting with victims of crimes he was investigating and prosecuting. Sleazy dude for sure.

Chris in Cleveland

December 29th, 2015 at 10:55 AM ^

Since we are way OT, am I the only one on here that loves Hell on Wheels? Harbaugh... who would have ever suspected that in his spare time he likes to identify and watch great Nexflix shows?