OT: Job interview questions, part 2
Since it's officially OT season, I wanted to ask you all some questions about the job interview process that may also help some of the seniors out there (or anyone who's interviewing or looking for a job). You may recall I posted about this a few months back, asking about appropriate attire for a job interview. Thanks for all those responses. It was a post about my son, who is a college senior interviewing for MLB jobs. Fast forward to now. He didn't get that initial job but has had interest from two other teams. One of the teams has been somewhat of a drawn out saga that started before the holidays and the other was more recent, culminating in a four hour interview marathon on Friday via Zoom with two assistant GM's, two analysts, and the VP of Pitching and Director of Pitching (so seemed like they were interested enough to have him interview with some important people). My question is this: In today's job market, do employers bother to let you know if you don't get the job? Is there a lot of ghosting going on? The first team, which expressed interest before the holidays, has gone somewhat silent. In the last communication, which was the beginning of last week, they said they hoped to be back to him at the beginning of this week with some next steps in the process. The second team told him last Friday after the interviews that they would reach out to him hopefully the middle of this week (so we aren't there yet). He's 21 and has little experience with this and I've been out of the interviewing market for almost 20 years. I've always thought that if a company isn't interested, they'll tell you so you'll stop reaching out to them but I could be very wrong about this. Thoughts?
January 11th, 2022 at 7:30 PM ^
My non-expert understanding is that many if not most employers just cease communicating now. I think that you have to be prepared to go through a four hour or multi-week interview process and then never hear from the people you talked to again.
But of course someone is hired. I hope it's your son. Good luck to him.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:39 PM ^
I make a point to reach out to anyone that I interview. I explain the number of applicants and give them tips to help them along in their search process. If they are internal, I may recommend other departments that I think would be a good fit. In instances where I have two very strong candidates, I will help the one not chosen very closely to see that he/she lands in our department, eventually.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:43 PM ^
I suspect you are an exception- but a very good one.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:08 PM ^
I don't think I've ever had an in-person interview that didn't at least tell me via email they weren't interested.
January 11th, 2022 at 9:25 PM ^
Yeah, maybe I'm an outlier, but I've probably been on ~ 8-10 final interviews over the last 15 years where I did NOT get an offer (including 2 as recently as Q4 CY 2021). Every single one communicated their rejection back to me. No ghosting at all.
That goes for a final interview. A recruiter phone screen where I never hear back, I'm not counting those.
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Another thing that is "maybe just me", but I enjoy the interviewing process as a candidate. I honestly view it like a first date: be relaxed, don't worry too much about rejection, look for a 2-way fit and just see what is out there.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:31 PM ^
Good luck.
I think we’ve all been ghosted before and we should remember how much we hated it. I push HR and encourage them to notify people when they were out of the running, but they rarely do.
Unless it’s an internal applicant, one of my pet peeves (and I know some encourage the applicant to do this) is when they reach back out and ask what they could/should have done better or differently, as if I have the time and inclination to help train them.
I often do encourage people who didn’t get jobs to ask not just who they hired, but from where. That way the person has an early heads up on a potential vacancy.
January 11th, 2022 at 9:22 PM ^
It really depends. Some prospective employers have great communications and a solid logical process. Other companies are a mess and there is a random feel, the process changes because it is being sorted out as they go, and they just go silent. Of course, a logical/good question to ask as a candidate it "what is the decision process and what is the next step/timing on when I will hear back?".
January 12th, 2022 at 11:16 AM ^
I'm a bit late to the party for this, but I feel like it is more than likely industry-related as well. I have had a lot of interviews (20-40) in the past 2 year in the biotech industry and was ghosted on less than 3.
I awlays ask the hiring manager and HR rep what their expected timeline and hiring process is. And I typically follow up with a call or email to the contact person on that timeline if I haven't heard from them yet. Or a week or two if it was not clear from the interview.
January 12th, 2022 at 7:49 PM ^
So far, he's been rejected by two teams who have both sent an email telling him. One was 6 weeks after the fact, but they also didn't give him a timeline. I'm hoping that's the industry standard. If some teams are doing it, then all teams are expected to do it. You don't want to be the unprofessional outlier.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:33 PM ^
It very much depends on the job as to whether they will ghost you or tell you that you didn't get the position. It's possible that they are just busy people and haven't gotten around to making up their minds. It's also possible that they've moved on and haven't said shit. USUALLY, if you've met a team for an in person interview, you should expect at least an email saying thanks but no thanks.
I think it's very appropriate to write them, if they are a couple days late, enthusiastically restating your interest in the position and your excitement regarding the next steps in the process. Don't be demanding of an answer, just touch base.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:42 PM ^
Following up is great. Don't be a pest but be persistent. Once every ten days or so is usually reasonable. I keep it short and just say "We talked about [x activity] during the interview and that's one aspect of the job I'm really excited about. I've got [y skills or training] in that area and I think I could really help out your team. If you have any other questions for me, please let me know."
January 12th, 2022 at 9:11 AM ^
This is what I expect to see. Also, I enjoy receiving a thank you email within the same business day as the interview. Something similar to the above post, maybe say, I’m even more excited about the position after speaking with you than I was before the interview.
So many HR departments are short staffed right now so comminication definitely isn’t where it should be for most companies.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:36 PM ^
Good companies will let you know you didn't make it. Unfortunately that means most just cease communicating with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with reaching out to his contact after the date they mentioned they'd reach out by. A respectful email or phone call just checking in can show a potential employer that the job means a lot to you.
Edit: unless they have a strict "do not contact" in the job posting
January 11th, 2022 at 7:48 PM ^
I think the no contact is generally understood to refer to initial contact. I would be really surprised if someone were upset with follow-up this far into an interview proccess.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:46 PM ^
I applied for a job with Comcast once many years ago. I did an initial phone interview but then never heard anything more and there was no one to really contact to follow up. I heard through some connections that they’d filled the position so I just moved on. About 18 months later I got an automated email informing me that they’d chosen someone else for the position and thanking me for applying.
January 11th, 2022 at 11:07 PM ^
18 months? That’s about how long it takes to get a human being on the phone when you call Comcast.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:11 PM ^
The one job he formally did not get sent him an email thanking him and telling him they went with another candidate. So kudos to the Detroit Tigers for their professional courtesy.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:38 PM ^
First - hopefully he wrote thank you e-mails to everyone he interviewed with (and ideally they were personalized and not a form letter).
Second - if the first team said they would be back to him early this week, he should follow up tomorrow. For the middle of this week callback, I would probably wait til Friday.
No one is going to fault him for following up.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:41 PM ^
Wendy - tell the poor kid to prepare to be 'ghosted'. It's happened to me several times over the last few years and each time it's just as shocking as the first. It's astoundingly rude. But, I guess that's the way it is now? I had an organization reach out to me a few weeks ago about a temporary gig with them and they proceeded to put me through an extremely formal interview and even made me do a task for them. Then after more than a week I had to reach out to them to get a response. Needless to say I was livid. But, at this point, when that happens now I have no problem sending an extremely polite and professional 'f--- you' letter for wasting my time. It actually made me feel better.
Good luck to your son - I wish him all the best. Just be prepared that employers are not nearly as courteous and respectful as they should be (or used to be). Plus, it may be worse for him if he's still young/in college. But, he shouldn't let that bring him down. And he should definitely reach out to get an answer so at least he won't be waiting around. (Sorry for the crankiness - I'm of course pretty bitter about all things job search-related).
January 11th, 2022 at 7:46 PM ^
If it is written as an f you letter, it will be read as such no matter how polite you are. No need to burn bridges. One of those people may work for a company that you are looking for a job with in the future.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
Solid corporate line. "Don't properly label piss-poor behavior as such. Lick the boot instead because CONSEQUENCES."
January 11th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
I prefer to think about it as cost benefit: FU letter buys you nothing but short term satisfaction. Short, polite thank you has at least a slim chance of payback.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:11 PM ^
Eh, I could argue that an FU letter has a slim chance of revealing to some HR person the error of their ways, but I won't fight you on this.
January 12th, 2022 at 7:20 AM ^
“an FU letter has a slim chance of revealing to some HR person the error of their ways”
LOL “slim” = “icicle’s chance in hell”
January 12th, 2022 at 5:45 AM ^
But that begs the question: Do you want to work for a company who does that kind of thing? Because if they're pulling that shit on you now, what will they do in the future?
I've done a lot of temp/contract jobs over the years, and one of the most important lessons I've learned in that time is this: Some jobs are simply not worth it. Some agencies aren't either.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:18 PM ^
Check out blue in dc's posting history sometime. He doesn't strike me as a boot-licking stuffed shirt.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:05 PM ^
I know, I really wanted to let it go. But, it was so rude/disrespectful and inconsiderate of my time that I had to say something. I hope they realized they were wrong and that they shouldn't treat other candidates that way in the future. It's especially disappointing because my field is pretty small and there aren't many organizations that do this type of niche work. It was a risk to say something and I probably shouldn't have, so I really hope it doesn't come back to haunt me. But, I have no intention of working with - or for - them in the future because they struck me as extremely unprofessional.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:20 PM ^
The doing a task for them part seems a bridge too far. They're asking you to work for free. My son had to write a pitching plan for one of their minor league prospects (that's what got him the interview in the first place) and we sort of chuckled and wondered if they'd end up using any of it. But he's 21 and has yet to prove himself. Your body of work should speak for itself. They shouldn't ask you to prove yourself in a way you've already proven through your professional life.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:25 PM ^
They asked you to do a "task?" I'm no labor lawyer, but that seems . . . borderline illegal.
If you're that miffed reach out to HR or even higher up the food chain and explain exactly what happened. Most likely nothing happens, but at least make someone aware that their "process" is bullshit.
January 11th, 2022 at 11:17 PM ^
It depends on the job. Supposedly at many French restaurants, the interview is "make me an omelette." Seems like a job specific task to me.
January 12th, 2022 at 6:48 AM ^
Expecting an interviewee to complete a task makes me think that they don't have an appropriate process for specific roles to determine if the person is qualified for the position they are trying to fill.
January 12th, 2022 at 8:19 AM ^
To me this depends on the task that they ask you to perform. My wife is a journalist and has had to perform a "writing test" for every new job she has interviewed for since we have been together. It usually consists of being given some vague scenarios that require her to come up with questions for people she would be interviewing for the story and writing a short article about the scenario along with some other tasks. I believe she has even had to come up with headlines and formatting for some.
I work in software and have had to take tests for every job that I have ever had. They usually consist of using psudocode to write a small program that achieves a goal, although if I know what language they code in and I know it well I try to write it in their preferred language rather than psudocode.
I don't think being asked to perform tasks in the interview process is that unusual anymore, especially in the entry level stages.
January 12th, 2022 at 9:12 AM ^
For the jobs my son is applying for, he's had to perform different tasks in order to move to the next level. They've ranged from 90 minute timed logic tests to coming up with improvement plans for players, both real and fictitious, to answering questionnaires about contracts and draft prospects. I think those kinds of tasks weed out the qualified from the unqualified, but I would find doing something a company could profit from objectionable. In the case of a restaurant, a cook who's asked to cook a meal, for example, cooks a meal for the owner and manager and they eat it, and it's done. It's like a tryout. The owner can't then go and sell what the cook made. I think it depends on the nature of the task and whether a company can use what you produce.
January 12th, 2022 at 10:10 AM ^
Yes - this sounds like it's getting a little ridiculous, right? I mean, how much are they going to put the candidate through? And this is for an entry level job, correct? (it sounds very impressive but I feel like this is a little overboard). If you're putting someone through 4-hour interviews and then multiple rounds of tasks, you better give them the courtesy of a proper, professional message saying they didn't get the job. They're using up a lot of the candidate's time, effort and mental energy.
My situation was a little different because it was only for a temporary, two-month job and as you said earlier, I'm already well-established. I was a bit annoyed when they asked me to do it. I wanted to point to my resume and say 'Ummm, I've been doing this for ten years'. I'm also a freelancer and looking for full-time work so this took up several hours I could've been working; it literally cost me money. One of the other times I was 'ghosted', I politely reached out and asked them to institute a policy of responding to candidates they declined (for that one, I did a task, went through multiple rounds of interviews and had a strong professional connection to a board member). But, in general, these people need to get over themselves and consider other people's time.
Again, sorry for being so salty. But I hope your son lands a great job! GO BLUE!
January 12th, 2022 at 10:31 AM ^
I understand your frustration. While interviewing for my last job, they asked me to provide my portfolio, which is normally standard operating procedure. But in this case, I had been freelancing there for four years (and had worked there on staff for 8 years in the past), my portfolio was essentially their agency reel for one of their biggest clients (I was a copywriter/creative director in advertising and worked on the McDonald's national account and half the commercials on the agency's McDonald's reel were mine at the time), and they had pressured me to take a full-time job because they said they were cutting back on freelancers. There were no other candidates for the job, I was essentially interviewing for the job I already had. Asking me to produce my portfolio was a weird power move that put a bad taste in my mouth. I took the job but only stayed 2 years, and never went back.
January 12th, 2022 at 10:48 AM ^
And yes, as for my son, it's an entry level job. He applied for a few internships, too -- same questionnaires and tests. When I first heard about the hoops he was jumping through, especially the questions about contracts, I was like, Is this for the GM job? Totally crazy. One of the teams broke down the stats of applicants for him, telling him that around 300 people apply for one of these jobs. 100 are selected based on their resumes and are given the team's questionnaire/test. Based on their answers, ten are chosen for interviews. My son has made the cut 4 or 5 times, and has gotten pretty far with the two teams still standing. If I was him, I'd feel pretty good about that. The interview experience alone is invaluable. I said if you can talk for four hours to literal major league guys who are the decision makers on the team, you can talk to anyone.
January 12th, 2022 at 10:49 AM ^
After reading this post this morning I was talking to my wife about it. As a Journalist with 20+ years of experience she does get frustrated with these writing tests when she can provide thousands of writing samples from her career. She did say that on a couple of occasions where she had to do these writing tests her work was published with credit given to her as a freelancer. She wasn't thrilled, but it isn't uncommon in media for freelancers to be published without pay. It just put a sour taste in her mouth that there wasn't a formal agreement for the use of her writing, especially since she didn't get the job at the time.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:43 PM ^
Ghosting by employers has been huge up until recently. I read a couple of articles about how recruiters and HR teams were very frustrated that prospective employees were ghosting them but I think that’s just payback. When I graduated six years ago I had dozens of interviews where I followed up about a week later and never heard from the company again.
I would assume MLB teams might be able to be more selective and therefore might be more active about keeping their prospects updated, but I don’t know.
Overall, he should still follow up about a week after each interview as it shows he’s motivated and keeps him at the front of their minds. Checking once a week is also not so frequent that it’s annoying.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:46 PM ^
A lot of companies go radio silent. The person didn't get the job but someone did. So that hole in the company is filled - problem solved and onto the next fire.
As others have said, good companies will at least send a letter saying they didn't get it. But there are people who make mistakes in good companies so I wouldn't completely write off an organization because one person in HR dropped the ball.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
Generally, it is the responsibility of the recruiter to communicate to the candidate that they were not selected or moving forward in the process. This is typically not a responsibility of the hiring manager if a recruiter is coordinating the process.
That said, in some organizations, it is the hiring manager's responsibility or the HM will still communicate to finalist candidates who are dispositioned, as there generally aren't more than 2-4 finalists for a given position so it's easy to do and good to keep up the relationship.
I would tell your son to communicate most directly and frequently with the recruiter and less frequently with the hiring manager and not at all to additional interviewers outside of thank you notes. For the recruiter, that could even be a couple times a week. For the HM, that's more like in 1-1.5 weeks if you haven't gotten an update from the recruiter or they keep shrugging you off.
As for what to expect, tell him to not be surprised if he doesn't get a response even if he does everything right.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:05 PM ^
Much more complete than my answer and I would completely concur about amount of engagement at all levels. I will say that a thank you note can definitely pay dividends. It is shocking to me how few people send them. It is one last chance to leave a good first impression. Try to do them quickly before they all meet to discuss how that round of interviewing went. A good thank you note will definitely boost a candidate if it is close, at least for me.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:23 PM ^
No recruiters, he's been talking directly with an analyst in R & D on one team and the manager of analytics on the other team. But I suppose translated, that means communicate with the first person who contacted him.
January 11th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
I’ve worked in Higher Ed career prep for the last 7 years and was actually UofMs Sport Management Career Coordinator for a few years recently. Happy to help him access the sport industry and how best to prep if you are interested.
If so, let me know and we can figure out the best way to exchange info.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:37 PM ^
Thank you for the offer. I appreciate it. I'll talk to him and reach back out to you, here.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:46 PM ^
The Michigan Difference right here.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:10 PM ^
You're right, the prospective employer should inform your son if he has not been selected for the position after the interview. Sometimes, we get caught up doing regular work, but if your son reaches out, he should expect a professional response in either direction.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:32 PM ^
When I interviewed for jobs, I would strategically position myself to know whether they would let me know or give a personal follow up thanking them. Most of the time, I would hear back from said company if they were still interested in me or if they pursued others. Ironically, the job I took a couple years back didn’t really follow up with me. Recruiters are great about following up. 2nd and 3rd interviews I also had follow ups.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:33 PM ^
I wouldn't jump to any ghosting conclusions yet. The hiring committee is going to want to meet as a group and maybe the original plans of doing that last week got scrapped for because of COVID or an emergency. Maybe they had a late candidate get in the mix and wanted to accommodate him or her.
Agree with a few posters above that I would have your son reach out on Friday and follow-up.
January 12th, 2022 at 8:20 AM ^
This is what I came here to say. They may just be tied up and not on the same schedule as your son would like(or even the same schedule that they committed to up front).
But yes, your son should 100% reach back out to close the loop to get some closure and he also has nothing to lose at this point.
January 11th, 2022 at 8:39 PM ^
Wendy, good luck to your son! I’ll be in your shoes soon with my U of M junior son.