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OT: Debt from Law School at the School in Ohio leaves lawyer unfit for admission to Ohio Bar

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:04 AM
#1
Cock D
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 421
OT: Debt from Law School at the School in Ohio leaves lawyer unfit for admission to Ohio Bar

A lesson for those thinking of starting law school this coming fall...

Wow. Guy goes to law school, guy racks up a huge amount of debt, guy has no idea how he’ll pay off his debts. Sound familiar? Okay, here’s the twist: the guy failed the “character and fitness” component of the Ohio bar because he has no plan to pay off his loans.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/character-fitness-fail-for-graduate-with-no-plan-to-pay-off-his-debts/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+abovethelaw+%28Above+the+Law%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - J.Lebowski

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:16 PM | I did it (Score:1)
ypsituckyboy
ypsituckyboy's picture
Joined: 06/22/2009
MGoPoints: 1467

Now I'm another T-14 jobless 3L.

Any lawyer-readers here work at a firm that's hiring?

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January 14th, 2011 at 1:35 PM | Yes (Score:1)
Dix
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 267

Yes, but I'm in Atlanta

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January 14th, 2011 at 1:46 PM | If I were him, I would book a (Score:1)
VideoTom
VideoTom's picture
Joined: 06/02/2010
MGoPoints: 1852

If I were him, I would book a flight.

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January 14th, 2011 at 2:04 PM | ... (Score:1)
ypsituckyboy
ypsituckyboy's picture
Joined: 06/22/2009
MGoPoints: 1467

I love Atlanta. Great golfing up by Alpharetta. I'll relocate. Seriously.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:09 AM | Yeah I just got my first (Score:1)
mejunglechop
mejunglechop's picture
Joined: 07/09/2008
MGoPoints: 6423

Yeah I just got my first grade back as a 1L and it wasn't good. Maybe I should get out while I can.

Galileo was also chastised.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:19 AM | Agreed (Score:1)
Cock D
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 421

Networking, writing/grading on to a journal, finishing strong, and leveraging prior experience is huge.

All as long as there is a plan to pay the hefty bills.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - J.Lebowski

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:35 AM | Networking is key (Score:1)
JLo
JLo's picture
Joined: 07/19/2008
MGoPoints: 237

I know a couple weaker students who got summer jobs long before I did, because they knew the right people at the right firms.

Also, your first semester grades don't have much bearing on your final GPA. My first semester was pretty average, but it's come up every semester since then.

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January 14th, 2011 at 1:22 PM | Isn't that the key with all graduates regardless of major? (Score:1)
Steve in PA
Steve in PA's picture
Joined: 08/10/2009
MGoPoints: 2347

Chances are that you land a job through who you know, not Monster or a school's employment service. 

 

 

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:37 AM | Who says awkward is bad? (Score:1)
Mich_Faithful
Mich_Faithful's picture
Joined: 11/08/2010
MGoPoints: 6467

 

How 'bout I punchisize your face, for free.

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:53 PM | I'm sorry... (Score:1)
daveheal
daveheal's picture
Joined: 07/18/2008
MGoPoints: -41

this is the wrong advice. "Unless you hate it" is not the right measuring stick. In this environment you should really want to be a lawyer in order to take on over 100 grand in debt, and even then you should think seriously about what it means to have that much debt.  And while you can certainly hustle your way into a job, there are no guarantees.  Also, making law review and "developing a dynamite personality" are both really hard to do.  I don't even know what it would mean to develop a dynamite personality at age 24. Certainly not the kind of experiment I'd want to wager 150k on. 

daveheal.com

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:16 AM | My first Semester was bad (Score:1)
Cock D
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 421

And I seriously thought about cutting losses and getting out after that first semester.  Dug out of the hole with some hard work.  Leveraged prior work experience and networking into a good job out of school a few years back. 

I stuck around out of pride - and the fact that the education was being largely cash financed.

In making your decision, don't let pride get in your way.  Confront the realities of the uphill climb and your ability to pay the freight of the education.  Good luck with your decision - it's a hard one.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - J.Lebowski

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:02 PM | dont do it (Score:1)
buckeyeh8er
Joined: 08/16/2009
MGoPoints: 482

I say stick with it.  I left after my first semester and even though I have a great career, I still wish I would have finished it.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:10 AM | As a law school grad (Score:1)
Dreisbach1817
Dreisbach1817's picture
Joined: 01/12/2010
MGoPoints: 5849

Kids, it's ok to go to Law School.  Just don't treat it like undergrad.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:18 AM | Erroneous on both counts (Score:1)
profitgoblue
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19416

I disagree.  Avoid law school like the plague.  Being a lawyer sucks unless you like being saddled with $100k in additional loans and working 12-14 hour days, 6 days a week, all the while wishing you were just about anywhere else.  /s

Also, law school is much more enjoyable if you treat it as undergrad, especially if you go to a school with "interesting" coeds . . .  For some reason, they seem to think lawyers are more attractive than they really are.

Disgruntled former moderator.  I got a lot of problems with you people!

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:22 AM | Correction: (Score:1)
michimoby
michimoby's picture
Joined: 04/13/2009
MGoPoints: 4293

Work sucks unless you like being saddled with $100k in additional loans and working 12-14 hour days, 6 days a week, all the while wishing you were just about anywhere else.

--------------------------------------------

"I cannot think of a better person to guide our university's athletic strategy than the inventor of The Noid."

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:27 AM | Hmmmmm (Score:1)
profitgoblue
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19416

Good point.  Maybe I just don't like working in general.  Maybe I should just stop.  Can I do that?  I'm thinking I'll need a good overweight and unhealthy hypnotist that could potentially die while I'm under hypnosis a la Office Space . . .

Disgruntled former moderator.  I got a lot of problems with you people!

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:33 AM | Profit (Score:1)
Dreisbach1817
Dreisbach1817's picture
Joined: 01/12/2010
MGoPoints: 5849

To be honest, we only care what your wife thinks.  I think she has become a semi-celebrity on this board.  What was her reaction to the Hoke hire?  And the Kris Frost recruitment?

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:50 AM | That's awesome (Score:1)
profitgoblue
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19416

You made me laugh out loud and the guy in the office next to me asked what the hell I was laughing about.  How do I explain that one?

FWIW, her first question after I told her that Brady Hoke was hired was:  "Who?"  (I think I mentioned it, but that was the same question I got from the Chick-fil-A cashier a few days ago.)  She is not informed as to recruiting issues other than the Dee Hart saga and she does not appear to care about that in which I was so invested.  She does, however, have a big interest in when Michigan will contract with Nike again.  She's not a fan of the Adidas font on my t-shirts and I hear about it every time I wear them (which is much more often than she would like).

Disgruntled former moderator.  I got a lot of problems with you people!

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:12 AM | Thats not poor (Score:1)
bluesouth
bluesouth's picture
Joined: 11/02/2008
MGoPoints: 2345

character that's stupid.  Hey, it's just a way the profession is telling people we have too many Lawyers now go do something productive with that high powered degree.  Happens in many professions.   Sorry, bout that guy it's too bad he had to learn this the hard way.

 "Runnnn!!! get to da choppa"

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:13 PM | There aren't a lot of other (Score:1)
08mms
Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 1685

There aren't a lot of other uses for a law degree, the skills themselves are transitive but a lot of employers aren't interested in someone with that specialized of an education (or at least, employers who offer salaries proportionate to law school tuition).  This poor bastard wasn't carrying a debt load much higher than anyone I know who isn't on scholarship, and was working for a public defender who wouldn't hire full-time until they had bar results (a position that is pretty common across public employers, and a lot of firms outside of BigLaw).  The Ohio Bar screwed this guy, and is screwing over public defender hiring.

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January 14th, 2011 at 1:35 PM | The Government sector (Score:1)
bluesouth
bluesouth's picture
Joined: 11/02/2008
MGoPoints: 2345

particularly the Veterans Administration has openings all across America and the Phillipines for JDs to do benefits disposistions, or adjudicate Veterans claims.  The starting pay is not bad and a job in hand is always good collateral.  In some cases the Veterans Administration will pay some or all of the loans back depending on how desperate they are to get someone in that posistion.  Could be a good deal all the way around.  were talking  at a range of  $70 - 100 grand. 

 "Runnnn!!! get to da choppa"

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January 16th, 2011 at 12:23 AM | I'm curious... where are (Score:1)
Clarence Beeks
Clarence Beeks's picture
Joined: 09/06/2008
MGoPoints: 3497

I'm curious... where are these VA positions posted?  There's nothing on USAJobs about them.  Just curious.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:12 AM | I just finished my 1st semester as a 1L as well (Score:1)
R Kelly
R Kelly's picture
Joined: 03/03/2009
MGoPoints: 977

I am really struggling to decide if I should continue down this path.  I don't want to be a quitter, and I enjoy the school aspect to a certain degree; however, I don't really know if I want to be a lawyer all that bad.  I came here more for the versatility of the degree than anything else, but I really don't know if it is worth 100K+.  I know there are a lot of lawyers on the beard here, what advice would you have for someone like myself?

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:17 AM | See my comment above... (Score:1)
Cock D
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 421

and the comment above it.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - J.Lebowski

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:19 AM | read it (Score:1)
R Kelly
R Kelly's picture
Joined: 03/03/2009
MGoPoints: 977

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the advice.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:23 AM | i went (Score:1)
los barcos
los barcos's picture
Joined: 03/27/2009
MGoPoints: 215

to law school for the same reason as you - because of the versatility i thought a law degree would open a lot of doors.  which is true, i think, except now law schools are churning out so many lawyers there are very few jobs for anyone, especially in public interest. (and i went to a "good" law school).

 

if i were you i might stick it out at this point but honestly if i had to do it all over again i would have looked into a different degree, probably one in public policy.

 

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:51 AM | I was in the same situation (Score:1)
Gone_Fishin
Gone_Fishin's picture
Joined: 02/26/2010
MGoPoints: 24

I was in the same situation after my first year.  I thought law school would be interesting and make me a more well-rounded person for whatever job I decided to pursue, and I was hoping to do something in the public interest sector. 

However, I seriously considered leaving.  Among other reasons, I hated focusing on the academic side 24/7.  I decided to give the second year a try, but I wanted to try something different - doing something I liked.  I volunteered at a legal aid office, got involved in some of the school organizations, and joined one of the school's legal clinics.  It made my experience a lot better because I found that I actually cared about what I was doing. 

So if you want any advice, I would say tough out that first year, and then think about what initially interested you in law school.  From there, pursue activities, organizations, and opportunities that relate to those initial reasons for going.

"I'm here at this military academy, and all I'm allowed to think about is my grades, football, and getting out of here." - Antonio Kinard

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:05 PM | My grad loans just kicked in fully (Score:1)
bkrentler
Joined: 11/23/2009
MGoPoints: 480

I feel your pain. It is still worth it, but it kind of sucks. At least the interest is tax deductible. I also think the rates are variable so they should drop in July or whenever they readjust. Hopefully we can avoid massive inflation for the next ten years! :-)

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:17 PM | At the debt load, the degree (Score:1)
08mms
Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 1685

At the debt load, the degree is not very versatile.  You'll gain skills in critical thinking and organizing and presenting arguments, but most employers outside of some consulting groups will wonder why the heck you wasted time and money on a law degree when you aren't going to practice.  I'd sit down ASAP and figure out what you want to be doing with your career, and then adjust you education/employment choices toward that goal.

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:33 PM | If I were you, I'd cut your (Score:2 Normal)
amolio77
Joined: 01/02/2009
MGoPoints: 244

If I were you, I'd cut your losses.  If you hate idea of being a lawyer while in law school, you probably will hate the idea even more after you graduate.  Cut your losses now and look for work.  It may not sound fancy to not finish law school, but it's better than being left with the weight of paying off student loans for the rest of your life, while stuck working a job you're admittedly not sure if you'll even somewhat like.

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January 14th, 2011 at 1:45 PM | I went to Law School, (Score:1)
OSUMC Wolverine
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Joined: 09/06/2008
MGoPoints: 1105

I went to Law School, realized after the first year that I had no desire to be an attorney.  I worked through the next two years, graduated, and never sat for the bar.  I went back to healthcare, work 3 days/week, make more than most of my classmates I still have contact with from law school, and am happy with my decision.  In retrospect, I should have stopped after year one and saved the money and wear and tear on myself.  If your heart is not in it, give continuing some serious thought.  Your heart not being into it will undoubtedly impact your performance as well.

Reality is an illusion created by an unsafe drop in blood alcohol levels that exposes one to the idiocy of others.

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:14 AM | So, (Score:1)
sharkhunter
Joined: 01/29/2009
MGoPoints: 2247

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:17 AM | read this (Score:1)
cazzie
Joined: 01/26/2009
MGoPoints: 253

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=is%2...

cazzie

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:38 AM | recommended (Score:1)
blueheron
blueheron's picture
Joined: 03/26/2009
MGoPoints: 2316

With apologies to MGoLawyers, law students, pre-law types, and minors on this site who'd like be lawyers, that is a darkly humorous and wide-ranging article that I think everyone should read.

"..."

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:42 AM | (No subject) (Score:3 Normal)
BiSB
BiSB's picture
Joined: 08/15/2009
MGoPoints: 28067

I am being Twitters

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January 16th, 2011 at 2:52 AM | Wh...wh...what is Snoopy (Score:1)
BlueDragon
BlueDragon's picture
Joined: 11/14/2010
MGoPoints: 16811

Wh...wh...what is Snoopy doing in the background of that gif?

Abort, Retry, Fail?

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:18 AM | Don't give up on law school if you are a student or thinking of (Score:1)
WFBlue
WFBlue's picture
Joined: 10/03/2010
MGoPoints: 1781

attending.  I did not enjoy the law education or the practice of law, but the legal education was crucial to my current career in commercial real estate (Space Bitches Space in a different context).  I would recommend the JD/MBA combined degree however;  with it you can 'write your own ticket".

 
 

Time is working funny again. Greg Mattison has a phonebooth time machine he sent the secondary back to Charles Woodson's childhood in; they have emerged with ZZ Top beards, children, and skills.-BC

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:30 AM | Agreed (Score:1)
BlueLaw97
Joined: 11/24/2010
MGoPoints: 56

At the time, law school felt like the inner circles of purgatory.  Both brain and liver were elated in the spring of 1997 when it was over.  Ashley's and Grizzly Peak were probably a bit sad that I graduated, as the amount of money spent on booze during those three years probably added a fourth year of tuition.  Mercifully, my parents paid for it.  I have no idea how I managed to pull that off, so I can't speak to the debt situation.   

That said, I can give you a perspective on what it has done for me. 

I was at Winston Strawn in Chicago for 10 years and left in the fall of 2007 to start doing PE work with a handful of friends.  During the lovely meltdown of 2008/09, I wondered (maybe a few million times) "what on gods green earth have I done"...), but now I can tell you that it was by far the right move.  

The degree, connections and experience have proven invaluable.  I miss the 90+ hour weeks like a dog misses fleas...

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:39 PM | yup. it takes a certain kind of person to enjoy the day to (Score:1)
WFBlue
WFBlue's picture
Joined: 10/03/2010
MGoPoints: 1781

day grind of the practice;  it just wasn't for me.   The real estate business, on the other hand is a joy;  different every day, constructive (no pun intended), and fulfilling, at least for me.  I use my legal education every day, all day long. 

 
 

Time is working funny again. Greg Mattison has a phonebooth time machine he sent the secondary back to Charles Woodson's childhood in; they have emerged with ZZ Top beards, children, and skills.-BC

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:48 PM | I Didn't Mind it at First (Score:1)
BlueLaw97
Joined: 11/24/2010
MGoPoints: 56

Seven years of my life flew by in about 10 minutes.  The last three were stressful.  Was on planes more often than pilots and working constantly.  No wonder I am 38 and single! 

I made the decision to leave right about the time for me to be considered for partner.  My mentor told me I was nuts (and at the time she was probably right), but I just didn't have it in me anymore. 

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:20 AM | The fact is, a law school (Score:1)
dwinning
dwinning's picture
Joined: 10/02/2009
MGoPoints: 370

The fact is, a law school education costs $150,000 and MOST legal jobs don't pay enough to comfortably pay that off.  The jobs that do, suck.  I'm a 04 UMLS grad, and since I never went into BIGLAW - I've had jobs where I get to see my kids - student loans are the bane of my existence.  I could almost drive two BMWs for what I pay in loans every month.  I always advise against going to law school, unless you (a) know what lawyers really do everyday (drudgery) and (b) you get some great scholarship. 

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:26 AM | It may get better... (Score:1)
BiSB
BiSB's picture
Joined: 08/15/2009
MGoPoints: 28067

...but right now, the legal market is beyond brutal, ESPECIALLY in Michigan.

I'm a 3L.  I attend a top-25 law school.  I'm on pace to graduate magna cum laude.  I'm Editor in Chief of one of the legal Journals.  I'm on the moot court board.    I have four years of pre-law school work experience in a respectable position.  And I'm personable, damnit.  And I can't get an interview, let alone a job.

As a result, this is my current Student ID picture:

I am being Twitters

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:29 AM | Do as I say? (Score:1)
profitgoblue
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19416

Did you do as I suggested and network with certain individuals?

Disgruntled former moderator.  I got a lot of problems with you people!

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:34 AM | I did indeed (Score:1)
BiSB
BiSB's picture
Joined: 08/15/2009
MGoPoints: 28067

Haven't heard back, but I'm assuming everyone is still digging out from under the pile o' stuff that develops over Christmastime.  I'll follow up again if I don't hear anything soon.

I am being Twitters

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:31 PM | I'm guessing you're at ND Law? (Score:1)
JLo
JLo's picture
Joined: 07/19/2008
MGoPoints: 237

I spent all last semester combing the Midwest for summer jobs, and wound up finding one with a firm in Indy. If you have an interest in talking strategy, drop me a line at jaloh [at] nlaw [dot] northwestern [dot] edu

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January 14th, 2011 at 11:49 AM | 3% serious comment (Score:1)
blueheron
blueheron's picture
Joined: 03/26/2009
MGoPoints: 2316

Find some UMich alums at law firms, ask whether they read the 'blog, and show them your point total.  When they put that together with your other outstanding credentials, they'll hire you on the spot.

I'd personally conclude that you have some seriously high bandwidth/capacity, which is obviously good.

"..."

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:20 PM | I'm starting in a BigLaw firm (Score:1)
08mms
Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 1685

I'm starting in a BigLaw firm next year, and I credit a lot of that lucky break from talking college football in my interview/summer associate job and meeting some great UMich alumns.

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January 14th, 2011 at 2:08 PM | I got my job (Score:1)
Dix
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 267

I graduated law school in May 2007 from a school that, at the time, was top 25.  I got my first job in October of that year after basically 2 years of panic, and got it over the other candidates mainly because I told the partner who interviewed me that I could play shortstop or third base on the softball team.  Turns out he was the shortstop and felt like he was too old to keep it up, and wanted to move to third base.  This kind of random thing actually happens.  To be quite honest, I'd probably have done the same thing if I were choosing between equivalently qualified candidates. 

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:16 PM | Come on...... (Score:1)
aaamichfan
aaamichfan's picture
Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14220

At least allow them to give Vivid video a shot........

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January 14th, 2011 at 12:18 PM | HA (Score:1)
BiSB
BiSB's picture
Joined: 08/15/2009
MGoPoints: 28067

Holy Crap Blue!  You are more depressing then the coaching search.

That's gonna be my signature for a while.  Well played.

I am being Twitters

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