OT about OT (NFL postseason)
Ok…help me out here…
I read the NFL summary of postseason overtime this morning, but I am still a bit confused.
Was the Chiefs not calling a timeout near the end of the overtime quarter suicidal bravado, or simply understanding the rules better? Would the game have continued, even though San Francisco was ahead, if time had expired in the OT quarter?
The Niners should have elected to defend, obviously, and they should have…well…defended at some point. But I was baffled by the Chiefs not using another timeout as the last seconds ticked away. I assume it was like a regular game: the possession continues even though the quarter would have expired.
February 12th, 2024 at 7:24 AM ^
We had this question more or less as soon as the Chiefs got the ball, too. They said on the broadcast (but not until the sequence you described was unfolding) that it would have continued into the next OT, just like the end of a quarter.
February 12th, 2024 at 7:53 AM ^
Which is a little weird to me- why have a clock if it doesn’t matter?
February 12th, 2024 at 7:55 AM ^
Because it's the NFL, and making things unnecessarily complicated is what they do best.
February 12th, 2024 at 9:06 AM ^
I guess it is a built in "mandatory timeout" to flip the field and...have a media timeout.
February 12th, 2024 at 12:58 PM ^
And to reset each teams' allotment of timeouts. Those were the only reasons I could think of while having this same discussion as it unfolded.
February 12th, 2024 at 10:12 AM ^
This is deflating.
February 12th, 2024 at 11:25 AM ^
Because they would have had a long break and changed direction like in regulation
February 12th, 2024 at 4:58 PM ^
After they announced the rules for OT, I was not expecting to see a clock at all (besides the play clock) like in college OT. Then they started playing OT and there was a clock counting down like a regular quarter.
I think the only thing that would have happened if it ran down was they would take a short break (i.e. COMMERCIALS) and restart the clock to 15 minutes (this would repeat as needed until a team met conditions to end the game)
February 12th, 2024 at 5:42 PM ^
Because the end of a half (two quarters) is just like the end of the half. The possession does not carry over halftime and there's a kickoff at the start of the 3rd quarter.
February 13th, 2024 at 1:11 AM ^
Do we know if Bieber was there in case there was a second half time show?
February 12th, 2024 at 9:44 AM ^
It's the worst OT rules in sports. Overly complicated and arbitrary.
It wasn't even close, until baseball started extra innings with batters on 2nd base.
February 12th, 2024 at 9:59 AM ^
I was love it when people use the word arbitrary to criticize sports. Literally everything about the game is arbitrary.
February 12th, 2024 at 11:15 AM ^
It can't be worse than how it's done in college football, getting rid of kick-offs and punts, and starting with the ball at the 25-yard line. It makes it totally different game, and obviously benefits teams that are better in the redzone.
February 12th, 2024 at 12:19 PM ^
The college way eliminates the field position game, yes, but it's equitable to the two teams without (usually) taking forever to decide games. When you've already had two teams to play 60 minutes of football, how much more should you ask of them?
February 12th, 2024 at 12:51 PM ^
I'm not denying that it's equitable, as both teams get an equal chance, but college OT does take away special teams from the equation. Why would it be any more unfair to have the same OT rules in college as they do in the NFL?
February 12th, 2024 at 1:12 PM ^
We just won a Rose Bowl in OT and a subsequent national championship.
Maybe that doesn't happen with different rules.
February 12th, 2024 at 1:38 PM ^
You could say the same things about 2016. Maybe with different OT rules we win against Ohio State and get to the NCG that year. IIRC we had one of the best special teams in the country, with excellent kickoff coverage and Jabril Peppers returning kicks. It definitely was not to our advantage to leave them out of the equation.
February 12th, 2024 at 1:06 PM ^
How is this the worst OT rule in sports? Each team gets a chance at the ball. It makes OT long, but it's also quite fair--much better than what it used to be.
With college making its rules worse, I consider the NFL playoff format better than college, albeit a bit less exciting. It's a better rule than PKs in soccer and regular season hockey.
February 12th, 2024 at 1:19 PM ^
Each team gets a chance at the ball, but in potentially very different circumstances. Depending on whether you win the coin toss, you might be getting the ball where you return it to, or you might get the ball on your 1 yard line if the opponent turns it over. You might get it on their 1 yard line, dependent on the same thing. You might get the ball with 15 mins, or you might get it with 4 minutes. There's too much variability.
And yes, variability is part of all sports. But when you're taking the variability, usually spread out over 60 minutes, and then cramming it in to potentially just two drives, I don't think you necessarily get the better team. Just the team with the better circumstances.
PKs in soccer would look very different if you had to kick it from 50 yards out, based on what the guy before you did.
At least in college, each team is starting with the same circumstances, so a coin toss isn't determining your difficulty. It could definitely be improved though. Maybe starting from outside of FG range.
EDIT: Also, fuckin' ties. There shouldn't be ties in American football.
February 12th, 2024 at 1:50 PM ^
But that's all a part of the game of football. Teams don't start with the ball on the same spot on the field on every possession. Special teams have an impact, depending on how good/bad punting, kick-off coverage and returning is. Historically these has been strengths for Michigan football, so not being able to have that be a factor in in overtime games is unfortunate.
February 12th, 2024 at 1:55 PM ^
What is your ideal scenario? You're talking about teams getting the ball under two potentially different scenarios, but that's football. The alternative has been that one team potentially doesn't get a chance at the ball at all. If a team gets the ball at their own one, that's either the result of a thrilling goal-line stand, or a defensive stand followed by a well-executed punt. And, well, that's football.
If you're advocating for the college system, well, I liked the old college system, even though it does skew things quite a bit (statistically, starting on defense is a huge advantage). But the NFL playoff-only system seems to even out some of the wrinkles, at the cost of a longer OT.
February 12th, 2024 at 2:48 PM ^
February 12th, 2024 at 3:13 PM ^
49ers made a mistake taking the ball firs after winning the coin flip. It was almost like were thinking the old rules were in effect.
February 12th, 2024 at 6:40 PM ^
Unlike college, in which there are matching possessions for as long as OT continues, there is no matching possession in the "2nd OT possession". If you take the ball first and score on your second possession, it's game over.
February 12th, 2024 at 2:14 PM ^
I don’t think it’s complicated or arbitrary, and I like it a lot better than the college rule.
February 12th, 2024 at 10:06 AM ^
Then I misunderstood. So when does the game actually end then? The first TD after both teams have had a possession? Should SF not have kicked the FG in OT?
February 12th, 2024 at 10:12 AM ^
They should have deferred is what they should have done.
Both teams get a possession and opportunity to score.
If the team with the first possession scores a TD, and the team with the next possession DOES NOT score a TD, then game over.
If the team with the first possession scores a field goal and the team with the second possession scores a TD, then it's game over.
If the team with the first possession DOES NOT SCORE (turnover by INT or fumble or turnover on downs, missed FG attempt, etc.) then anything the second team scores (TD or FG) ends the game.
If both teams on their first possessions trade FGs or TDs, then the next score ends the game.
February 12th, 2024 at 10:40 AM ^
BTW, I missed the opening coin toss but watched the OT one and the ref said something like, "Since you're the visitors you get to call this one, too." Did SF actually get to call the toss both times?
I guess it doesn't really matter, but that doesn't quite seem fair for a game where the "home" and "visiting" teams are purely theoretical.
February 12th, 2024 at 11:25 AM ^
Say what? How is getting to call the coin toss an advantage!?!?
February 13th, 2024 at 1:20 AM ^
The conferences alternate year to year who is home so it was AFC this year.
February 12th, 2024 at 6:45 PM ^
It's over the sooner of
- if one team is ahead after each team has had their chance at the initial possession
- the next score (true sudden death)
Receiving the kick means you get the first crack at sudden death in your 2nd possession
February 12th, 2024 at 7:48 AM ^
“We are starting a new game.”
Bigger problem was SF not using timeouts on defense. They were gassed.
February 12th, 2024 at 8:09 AM ^
Exactly - SF took the ball to give the D some rest. That long drive gave the KC offense plenty of rest and set up their play calling. Patrick scrambling for those two big gains were the back breakers
February 12th, 2024 at 9:47 AM ^
Lions would have won that game
February 12th, 2024 at 8:02 AM ^
And why did SF choose to go first in OT? Seems like that was a big mistake.
February 12th, 2024 at 8:06 AM ^
Disagree. (I think) If KC had kicked a FG, then it becomes sudden death. Same story if both had NOT scored on 1st possessions. You absolutely want the ball 1st.
February 12th, 2024 at 8:11 AM ^
KC wouldn't have kicked a field goal unless it was last resort (4th and 10+). They had 4 downs to move down the field and score with Mahomes at QB. I'd take that every day of the week. It was absolutely the wrong decision to take the ball.
It essentially makes the 2nd possession the 'Sudden Death' possession.
Only 3 scenarios:
FG-TD = Win
TD-TD+2pt = Win
TD-TD-no 2pt = Loss
This also ensures that the offense has control of the outcome.
February 12th, 2024 at 10:05 AM ^
You didn't explicitly say so, but I gather your idea is that if KC ties the game, then SF gets the ball 1st on the third possession and now it is sudden death. So, KC's odds are better trying to win in the 2nd possession.
That is odds of KC winning in the second possession ( like going for 2 in the TD-Td scenario ) are better than the odds of KC scoring first after the 3rd possession starts with SF getting the ball first.
February 12th, 2024 at 6:52 PM ^
You forgot punt-punt
- SF scored on only 4/10 regulation non half-ending possessions
- KC scored on only 5/12 regulation non half-ending possessions
- (SF muffed a punt, completely removing a posession)
February 12th, 2024 at 8:27 AM ^
Similar to Michigan vs. Alabama: You don't really want to go first, but if you go first and get a touchdown its great because all the pressure is on the other team to score. You know its 4 downs all the way down and you can take some chances.
San Francisco's first drive was the worst case scenario: You get inside the 10 yard line and kick a field goal. Now Mahomes really only has to go about 35 yards and its a tie game given that Butker is on an absolute heater from everywhere. I think its a real debate on whether it's better to go for it given who SF was up against.
I thought the biggest mistake was not assuming Mahomes would take the ball himself on the fourth down in OT. I didn't know what the play was going to be, but I knew Mahomes was keeping it. Watching SF bite on the hand off was excruciating because it was so obvious.
February 12th, 2024 at 9:11 AM ^
The game pivoted on Greenlaw's injury. They were dominating to that point. He was covering Kelce and spying on Mahomes. When he went out, all of a sudden things started opening up for KC. The D line for SF was non-existent after adjustment at half time... They got to him a couple times but there were a bunch of plays that he had all day to throw.
Wasn't a clean game and the fumbles were ridiculous, but if Greenlaw stays out there, I don't think KC wins
February 12th, 2024 at 9:15 AM ^
Correct answer here. you want to go second in an overtime scenario if you can.
Also, I get it that the San Francisco defense was gassed, but that also means the Kansas City offense is gassed, too. Given the advantages of going second, I would’ve taken a chance.
and yes, figures the Ohio State “superstar “bit on the RPO both times, critically injuring his team.
February 12th, 2024 at 10:05 AM ^
the San Francisco defense was gassed, but that also means the Kansas City offense is gassed, too.
Not really. Defense is more tiring to play than offense. The offense knows where the ball is going, which is a significant advantage in this regard. It's also more exhausting to rush the passer than to pass protect. An offensive lineman will normally play the entire game but you don't want to ask a DL to do the same.
February 12th, 2024 at 11:47 AM ^
sheesh dude I hate a Bosa as much as the next guy but he played a pretty good game overall
February 12th, 2024 at 12:18 PM ^
I'm not sure if it's that clear cut. Yes you want to go second when possessions are equal (college) but there is an advantage to taking the ball first in the NFL playoffs - If tied after first two possessions you have the ball with the opportunity to end the game. I'm not sure that outweighs the advantage of the additional information you receive by getting the ball second but it's still something that has to be considered.
February 12th, 2024 at 6:59 PM ^
In college, that is true, there are equal possessions for every round, so you might as well be the first to have the advantage of going second.
But in these NFL rules, it's true sudden death beginning with the 2nd round.
Further, both KC & SanFran had scored in less than 50% of their non-half-ending regulation possessions.
I'd like to see someone run a mathematical simulation to see which of the benefits is greater:
- the kicking team knows what it has to do on its initial possession
- the receiving team walks off on its extra possession thereafter until halftime
- We had three possessions, you had two, sucks to be you
- (There's a kickoff following halftime, just like the usual, ending the initial receiving team's advantage)
February 12th, 2024 at 9:36 AM ^
Why you want the ball first in the NFL OT: if you score a TD and then the other team scores a TD (or you each kick a FG or you each don’t score) it then becomes sudden death with you getting the ball again and your opponent wouldn’t be guaranteed to get the ball again. If SF scored a TD and then KC scored a TD, SF gets the ball again and a FG wins it. In college, each team is guaranteed the same number of possessions which is why going defense first is an advantage because it lets the offense know what they need.
February 12th, 2024 at 11:26 AM ^
Except KC was prepared to go for two.
February 12th, 2024 at 4:03 PM ^
The motion on the TD was fantastic. There was no way they weren't going to get it at that point. Michigan benefited from similar motion where the CB was pushed a step or two out of the play vs. Washington and Alabama.
Hopefully Wink is motion smart.
February 12th, 2024 at 12:20 PM ^
IMO - the key is getting the ball second. That way - you KNOW what you need to do to further the game - and, make an informed fourth down decision.
If you're in FG range, you're down three - and - it's a fourth and five - you probably attempt the FG to extend the game. If however, the opponent scored a TD on their opening drive - you go for it.
My thought was - if you win the coin toss - start on defense. And, as others have noted - the third possession is the critical one.