[LOCKED?] OT: Saints, Tulane to Require Proof of Vaccination for Fans

Submitted by Dizzy on August 15th, 2021 at 5:24 PM

Per Sports Illustrated:

"The city of New Orleans is requiring fans to provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination or a negative PCR test taken within 72 hours in order to attend games at the Caesars Superdome and Yulman Stadium."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/08/12/new-orleans-saints-tulane-require-fan…

 

Hadn't seen this on the board yet, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. I imagine other organizations will be considering this option in the coming days.

Curious what Michigan will do. For those willing to discuss, please be civil.

[edit @ 3:15pm: I'm keeping this thread on the board but this decision is subject to change at any time if the discussion goes too far off the rails.  Already several posts were removed by other mod(s) early today for violating MGoBoard guidelines and I have removed one post, edited another, and issued one warning-rob f]

[Edit @8pm: Locking this now, it's run it's course]

MGoBoard
#COVID-19

Carpetbagger

August 16th, 2021 at 12:24 PM ^

Great picture. I'll assume it's not fake and then also note we have a vaccine available right now to anyone who chooses to get one. Or are we going to require masks every year forever when we have a Covid seasonal outbreak?

You surely don't think Wave 4 is the last do you? Wait until the North has to shut in during the cold this winter, that'll be Wave 5.

 

Joined: 12/31/2010

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GoBlueGoWings

August 16th, 2021 at 12:01 AM ^

Instead of ticket scalpers, people are going to start scalping vaccine cards.

The negative test taken within 72 hours gets me because you can still get COVID anytime after your test, not know you have it, go to the game and spread it.

I don't see Michigan doing this unless they are told to do this. Michigan needs money. If people who bought tickets don't want the vaccine for whatever reason, then Michigan has to give the money back. Will they risk pissing off the fans enough that they will never buy tickets again?

Joined: 04/19/2012

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Jonesy

August 16th, 2021 at 2:32 AM ^

Man, i thought all the covidiots had been run off the board by now and were jerking off with wolverine historian on his anti-covid, stop the steal, conspiracy theory discord

Joined: 03/14/2012

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 2:56 AM ^

So ..... here's my question.  If this is going to be their policy, then I presume the ticket takers and vaccine checkers and concession workers and anyone else who works at the stadium themselves would have to be vaccinated to be on the job.  Right?

But if NOLA is something like 67% vaccinated (which is probably a high estimate, both for NOLA and for many US cities), that means 1 out of every 3 people literally cannot work.

In all the talk about vaccine mandates, I never hear anyone talk about this logistical issue.  A mandate literally could/would eliminate around 1/3 of any individual employer's workforce.  This in an environment where many employers are already having a hard time finding workers.

-----------

Ultimately, I doubt vaccine mandates get much (if any) traction, simply because of the above. 

The only real place I could see it get widespread traction is air travel (the job of checking could easily be handed off to the TSA, that huge labor force already exists but that again begs the question "would the TSA now have to be vaccinated to work?").  But even then, I don't think mandating them for air travel is a long-term winning issue from a strictly political POV.

Joined: 12/04/2012

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1VaBlue1

August 16th, 2021 at 9:38 AM ^

" "would the TSA now have to be vaccinated to work?" "

Do you live under a rock?  Yes, federal government workers (direct employees (civilian/military) and contractors) must be vaccinated or comply with mandatory masking and testing requirements.  This includes contractors that work both onsite at gov't locations and at the contractor sites.

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Carpetbagger

August 16th, 2021 at 11:01 AM ^

I admit to not paying much attention myself to this. But didn't the Federal Employee Unions come out with a statement that this had to be negotiated, and couldn't be imposed without their consent?

Not everything the gov't says actually happens. Perhaps it has. I really don't know.

Joined: 12/31/2010

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 12:22 PM ^

Yes, the Federal Employee Unions did say that.  It's probably more a negotiating ploy than anything ("we'll give you something if you give us something back").  But the Unions would need to be willing to play ball too.

A vaccine mandate for air travel would have 2 hurdles to clear, presuming that TSA would be the enforcers of said policy.  (1) getting the Union to sign off on it, and (2) A significant chunk of the TSA workforce leaving the job (either via quitting or being fired) once it became a thing.

Joined: 12/04/2012

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Carpetbagger

August 16th, 2021 at 12:28 PM ^

Oh, I'm sure it is just a negotiating ploy. The Federal Unions are probably the biggest backers of Democrats in the country. My objection was to his assumption that federal employees were all vaccinated already, when most likely they are negotiating their payoff yet.

Joined: 12/31/2010

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 12:52 PM ^

The Federal Unions definitely do slant Democrat. 

But I think there's a caveat here.  Not to get too political here, but I think there is a lot more vaccine mandate enthusiasm from (1) Democrats who are part of the WFH, white-collar, middle-income and above class versus (2) Democrats who are part of the blue-collar, middle-income and below class.

Group #2 has been much more "on the front lines" in this pandemic in many ways.  And, frankly, there's probably some resentment toward Group #1 because of that (an uncomfortable truth, but portions of Group #1 have definitely "outsourced risk" from themselves onto others in this pandemic).  If the TSA workers now needs to check vaccine passports --- that's another "front line job" that gets put on Group #2 and not Group #1.

My point being --- the Federal Unions' stance is a negotiating ploy to some extent.  But I also think there is some legitimate frontline distaste for these proposals as well. 

Joined: 12/04/2012

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Carpetbagger

August 16th, 2021 at 3:01 PM ^

That's a good point about the TSA specifically. I tend to think of the Feds as a bunch of useless office workers, but I forget there are plenty of more "blue-collar" front line workers such as TSA. I would imagine from my pre-Covid business travel that minorities are heavily represented in TSA, and given their vaccine hesitancy, and the high incidence of Covid infection in those front line workers, they might be more likely to fight the mandate.

They might just hold out for a bit more cash though.

Joined: 12/31/2010

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LSAClassOf2000

August 16th, 2021 at 7:20 AM ^

Well, if Michigan did it, I would be completely fine with it. Asking me if I am vaccinated is not a personal question - the answer is an emphatic "yes" - and asking me to provide proof of it and take a test if needed is not a great burden to me either. I am certainly not offended by it and I am all too happy to show that I have done this little thing for my family (which contains medically problematic individuals, including yours truly) and for the community at large. I honestly do not understand how anyone else could feel differently. 

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MGoStrength

August 16th, 2021 at 11:55 AM ^

I am certainly not offended by it and I am all too happy to show that I have done this little thing for my family (which contains medically problematic individuals, including yours truly) and for the community at large. I honestly do not understand how anyone else could feel differently. 

I am in the same boat you are.  I am vaccinated and don't mind proving it.  If you're not sure why anyone else could feel differently go back to my page one comment and read about my wife who has PTSD because she was raped.  She terrified of the vaccine.  It's not logical.  It's trauma induced PTSD.  That's probably not your run of the mill excuse to not get vaccinated.  But, I live with it every day and I although my wife and I disagree on the vaccine's efficacy, I respect her right to decide what goes into her body and it pains me on a deep emotional level to see my wife have to go through this every day feeling like she's forced to do something she is terrified of.

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TomJ

August 16th, 2021 at 9:56 AM ^

Freedom and consequences, all day long.

We have SO much freedom in this country: wear a seatbelt, don't wear a seatbelt; drink and drive, don't drink and drive; put your kid in a child seat, let her crawl all over the backseat. No one is strapping you down and injecting a measles vaccine into your arm.

But all of these choices have consequences. You absolutely have a right to decline a COVID vaccine, but there sure as hell ought to be consequences if you don't. 

Joined: 03/21/2012

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NJWolverine

August 16th, 2021 at 11:16 AM ^

For all you anti-vaxxers out there, if you refuse to get the vaccine, are you willing to undertake to everyone else that you are wearing N95 masks indoors, that you are taking precautions to avoid getting it.  Of course not.  See, the problem with anti-vaxxers is that they throw a lot of stuff on the wall, when when they really want is for society to barrel towards herd immunity.  They want you to accept the risk, go live normal lives, get it, and then live and let live.  The vaccine is an impediment because people getting it means that there is risk and that society should take measures against it. 

Here's an interesting WSJ article about how US growth is projected to surpass China's growth in the next 5 quarters, something that hasn't happened since 1990 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-economy-likely-to-outgrow-chinas-due-t…).  The dirty little secret is that barrelling towards herd immunity does produce better short-term economic results, but it comes at the steep price of loss of life and hospitalizations / medical bills. 

It just shows you how selfish our society has become. 

Joined: 08/31/2008

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SalvatoreQuattro

August 16th, 2021 at 11:51 AM ^

We live in a nation of laws. Laws that restrict our freedom to do as we please. We agree to this because we appreciate that it is better to give up a little freedom for security and stability.

I was one of the first to get the vaccine. No issues whatsoever.

 

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rob f

August 16th, 2021 at 1:15 PM ^

This Dr. Michael Yeadon?

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-health-coronavirus-idUSL2N2N72CS

Sorry, but Yeadon has been debunked by sources MUCH MORE RELIABLE than the clown who is interviewing him in your video.

Google him. Several articles appear that clearly show Yeadon to be wrong.

Post any more disinformation and you earn yourself a banning. Consider yourself warned.

Joined: 11/11/2010

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blue in dc

August 16th, 2021 at 4:56 PM ^

I struggle to walk through the logic that lets you accept this at face value.

Yes, it is true that the number of kids under 18 who have died from Covid is small.   Somewhere in the neighborhood of 350.  I could not find a more granular breakdown.   Dividing by 3 (since 12-17 is about 1/3, gets you roughly 117.   50 times 117 is nearly 6000.    If 6000 kids had died from the Covid vaccine, wouldn’t we have heard about it?   

Joined: 01/22/2011

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OneEyedMooseSm…

August 16th, 2021 at 1:06 PM ^

It seems as though nearly all adults who end up in the hospital or in the ground from COVID-19 are those who chose to be unvaccinated despite the easy availability of a vaccine.  I hope they enjoyed their freedumb.

Thank you to all the health care workers out there fighting on the front lines of this battle.

Joined: 03/11/2021

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Dean Pelton

August 16th, 2021 at 1:24 PM ^

Man this country is fucked. I will be very very surprised if this country survives the next presidential election. 

Joined: 08/01/2020

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Summer Heisman…

August 16th, 2021 at 2:51 PM ^

I imagine the job of checking the vaccine status to get into the stadiums will be specifically trained and hired.  Trying to check the legitimacy of Vax cards, while still herding 80k+ plus into stadiums in a short amount of time could be daunting. 

And from the fan standpoint, how mashed up is my card going to become folding it to fit in pants pockets repeatedly?  Or what will it look like after getting drenched in a downpour?   I see a number of things like these causing issues.

Joined: 08/16/2021

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 3:20 PM ^

What does "specifically trained and hired" for that job even look like? 

Someone who can tell, within 5 seconds, "oh, your card says your vaccine came from Moderna Lot 024C21B?  Well, that Lot didn't exist, it was Lot 024C21A that existed!  Fake card!  Step aside, who's next?"

I mean, the (1) Lot number and (2) where the vaccine was distributed are literally the only identifying information on the card that exists as regards the vaccine itself. 

-------------------------

The only way you can make this "fool-proof" is to make the card a QR code or something digital.  And, that, I think, is a scary idea.  Having to "scan in" to enter "anywhere and everywhere" is something I don't want to exist, period.  If that mindset ever gets created and/or normalized, it ultimately will spread globally and there are plenty of world actors who would use it for awful means.   

For example, Person A becomes President of Country B.  People organize protests against President A.  President A dictates that people who attended those protests are banned from buying food from the market.  And that would be enforced by the already-existing QR code technology/infrastructure.

Let's be very careful what we are wishing for here.  I am 100% opposed to vaccine passports.  The primary reason for such is the "slippery slope" argument.  

I'd much rather live with an endemic virus that peaks and ebbs in various waves, with each peak generally being of a lower amplitude than the previous one than have that.

Joined: 12/04/2012

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rob f

August 16th, 2021 at 3:38 PM ^

And in the meantime how many more unnecessary deaths? 

How many more of us, including especially those who depend upon other means of protection because they are ineligible for the vax or immunocompromised, suffer long-term or permanent disabilities?

How much more misery  (physically, emotionally, economically, etc.) is allowed or even inflicted upon everyone in fear of a so-called "slippery slope" that likely doesn't even exist, but is instead a fear-tactic weapon to rally cries of "hooray for our side!" ??

Joined: 11/11/2010

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 4:09 PM ^

Fortunately, we have multiple vaccines widely available for adult Americans that ARE effective against death from COVID.  Researchers and scientists have done a fantastic job here.

And fortunately COVID is not overly deadly for children, vis-a-vis other threats to children (I'm not going to get into any "look at this link!" back-and-forth with you, but there is a lot of evidence for what I said.  Hopefully you as a mod will not censor/delete my post).

And fortunately that vaccine will likely soon be approved for children anyway.  

As for the immunocompromised --- well, as a 2000-years-ago philosopher-of-sorts once said "the poor (the immunocompromised) will always be with us."  I'm fine in you advocating for them, but this does sound quite a bit like an argument for "masks forever."

One thing that isn't widely talked about ----- you get these occasional new stories about a tiger or a dog or a cat testing positive for COVID.  Which means that animals are now and likely will forever be a reservoir for this virus.  So even if we get 100% of humans vaccinated tomorrow, we will have to deal with mutations that arise from these animal reservoirs.  Coronavirus is not polio: the latter does not have an animal reservoir, the former does.  Such is with zoonotic viruses.  For all we know, even the Delta mutation arose in an animal versus a human.

Net net: I see a path forward beyond a QR vaccine passport.  In a world where "2 weeks to slow the curve" has become "72 and counting weeks to slow the curve" (an actual real-life example of the "slippery slope in action"), that path looks like the best path to me.  

Joined: 12/04/2012

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TIMMMAAY

August 16th, 2021 at 4:56 PM ^

You have a habit of using out of date "information" in your posts on this topic. I really wish you'd stop, but I know you will not. I'm also certain that you know exactly what you're doing, and that's a shame. The "Delta variant" is considerably more dangerous for children than any previously ID'd strain of covid-19. You know this, but you intentionally argue otherwise. 

Why? 

Joined: 09/08/2008

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 5:48 PM ^

Information on children's hospitalization rates from Delta exists from the UK (children hospitalized divided by children infected).  Of note, (1) the UK has dealt with the Delta variant longer than we have and (2) the UK does an infinitely better job than the US in estimating the "true denominator" (true number of people infected at any given time) given their extensive population studies.

I will admit - I give the UK studies more credence than any US studies, because the US/CDC simply doesn't do true population studies.  We have no good estimate for the denominator!  I really don't know why the CDC doesn't do this, but they don't.

--------------

Anyway, let's get to my original comment.  I am worried about a QR vaccine passport because of the "slippery slope." 

Now, let's take you ---- you often accuse me of what is, in your mind, "wrongthink."  If it was up to you, I'd be banned from this site for my wrongthink.

Fair enough.  But what would prevent a future political leader (e.g., someone who has a whole lot more power than a message board mod) from devising an algorithm that looks at people's opinions, grades those opinions based on what HE/SHE thinks is wrongthink, ties this grade to the QR code, and bans folk from certain activities in life?  

Remember --- this politicians definition of wrongthink may not align with your definition.

The 1984 dystopia is not impossible.  If the trade-off as regards CoronaVirus is (1) more deaths vs. (2) concepts from the 1984 book becoming non-fiction .... I'm choosing #1.  The 1984 dystopia is considerably more concerning to me.

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TIMMMAAY

August 16th, 2021 at 6:28 PM ^

Your entire response said nothing of any substance:

Anyway, let's get to my original comment.  I am worried about a QR vaccine passport because of the "slippery slope." 

Now, let's take you ---- you often accuse me of what is, in your mind, "thoughtcrime" and "wrongthink."  

Fair enough.  But what would prevent a future leader from devising an algorithm that ties what HE/SHE thinks is "thoughtcrime" and "wrongthink" (just remember, the definitions of these things can shift over time, so today's "rightthink" may be tomorrow's "wrongthink"!) to this QR code and thereby potentially banning folk from certain activities in life?  

The 1984 dystopia is not impossible.  If the trade-off as regards CoronaVirus is (1) more deaths vs. (2) concepts from the 1984 book becoming non-fiction .... I'm choosing #1.  The 1984 dystopia is considerably more concerning to me.

You literally presumed what is in my mind, responded to your own presumption (which was some nonsense "they're censoring us" bs) with some wild shit. How should I respond to that? You do this crap all the time, by design. It's dumb, please stop. 

Joined: 09/08/2008

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 7:28 PM ^

It does appear your mind is closed to thinking the "what could possibly go wrong with a QR digital code being widespread in every day life" topic could ever have "substance."  Fair enough.

But I would argue the above the line portion of my post contains at least "some" substance.

Anyway, as regards that substance:

(1) Why does the US not do true population studies as regards COVID incidence?  Scott Gottlieb, who almost everyone would classify as a "voice of reason" as regards the virus, has been railing about this for 15 months!!!  Non-stop, he talks about it damn near every day (including this AM on his daily CNBC appearance).

One simply cannot have a good estimate for IFR if they don't have a good estimate for the denominator, and one simply cannot have a good estimate for the denominator if they don't do true population studies!

To their credit, the UK HAS done population incident studies.  Which results in more robust denominators.  And those results show that Delta death rates (again rates, not absolute numbers, thus the need for the denominator) for kids are not dramatically different than Alpha death rates for kids.

The US hasn't done these population incident studies.  Which is honestly embarrassing, and leads to all kinds of wildly varying denominators, and which also leads to all kinds of inconclusive and often divergent answers to the "is Delta more dangerous for kids than Alpha?" question. 

The question above isn't "what is 2+2?"  It's instead a question without a widespread, 100% universally agreed upon answer.  The question is worthy of discussion.

Joined: 12/04/2012

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Carpetbagger

August 16th, 2021 at 4:22 PM ^

What do you mean slippery slope that doesn't exist? This shit was supposed to be over a year ago, then once we got vaccines, now when is it supposed to be over? When?

The fear and misery is inflicted by the left. I think those on the right are fine with whatever their outcome is vaxxed or not.

Never is when it's over. Covid is with us for-ev-er. Thank god I was wrong about the vaccines, or we'd probably be in a federally mandated lockdown by now as I'm sure as people would be dying by the 1000s.

It's over. It's now endemic. The people who are vaccinated are by and large protected from serious hospitalization and death. Those who are not, well, they made their choice, they get to live (or not) with it. Every single year.

Joined: 12/31/2010

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rob f

August 16th, 2021 at 4:46 PM ^

It's over?

Tell that to hospital workers in numerous areas who have few or no remaining hospital beds, who work double shifts or worse day after day after day.

And the kids in ICUs because the virus continues to mutate and has found a way to now cause serious harm to an age group that didn't suffer nearly as much from previous variants. Not to mention kids who are being forced to go thru another disruptive school year because of politicians who choose their own political future over science and proper precautions, threatening revenge on local districts and educators for daring to choose to follow medical science.

Tell that to medical experts who are now projecting daily new infections in America to number in excess of 200,000 within days.

So those I just listed and also we as a country and as its citizens should just wave the white flag so as to not inconvenience a loud and largely selfish and ignorant minority? 

Though I could add plenty of other evidence that the pandemic is far from over, I'll end it at that. But the fear is inflicted by both sides but especially in particular by the right who continue to throw "slippery slope" raw meat out there to keep their side engaged.

This country has a system of checks and balances that, while it was knocked off kilter (worse than ever before over the last 5 years) has always eventually worked in this country. I still have faith that somehow those checks and balances will do so to once again and prove the slippery slope crowd wrong. 

Joined: 11/11/2010

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TIMMMAAY

August 16th, 2021 at 4:59 PM ^

What. The. Fuck. Man. 

You know just as well as the rest of us here (some will admit it, others won't) that your comment "this shit was supposed to be over a year ago" is some bullshit. Purely because people in your political "corner" have refused to wear masks, and aren't getting vaccinated. That's why it's still with us here in the US right now. No other reason. Fin. 

Joined: 09/08/2008

MGoPoints: 56285

Summer Heisman…

August 16th, 2021 at 7:20 PM ^

I would guess they look to see if people have a vax card, and if on a glance it looks legit.  You can't turn the staff into the police when they have no legal authority, and have tens of thousands of cards to check.  My point was more about having staff that only checks whether or not you have a card, and either admits you, or turns you away, and have enough people in this position to avoid long waits into the stadiums.

I think my 2nd point is the more troublesome of the 2.  If everyone's cards get wrecked throughout the season, checking cards will become nearly impossible. 

Joined: 08/16/2021

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NittanyFan

August 16th, 2021 at 7:36 PM ^

An interesting study (an actual scientific study too) would be to (1) give vaccine card checkers a series of cards, (2) tell them 20% of them are fake, and (3) see how they do at identifying the fake/real ones.

Statistics tell us that, in this case, a person guessing completely at random would be right 68% of the time.  To show my work, that's (0.8 * 0.8 + 0.2 * 0.2).  They'd guess "real card" 80% of the time and it would be real 80% of the time.  Similarly for the fake cards - add them up to 68%.

If vaccine card checkers can't do better than that, then they literally have no incremental value over a random number generator.  

--------

The only things I could think to check for would be: (1) I'd expect different handwriting between lines 1 & 2 (since it's unlikely you'd see the exact same person for each of your shots), and (2) dates of the shots, that they don't say November 2020 or before.  A December 2020 shot date for a 25-year-old is not necessarily a red flag, they could have been in a preferred group.

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