Interesting Conundrum for 3-3-5 Haters
There has been much angst and hair-pulling on the board over the performance of Michigan's defense, and particularly, the commitment to the 3-3-5 stack scheme. I happen to be one of those who thinks this scheme is in place largely to make do with current personnel and to cover the inexperience in our secondary. Gerg, from my perspective, is doing a fine job, and our defense is doing as well as they can. They know they aren't the same caliber as a typical Michigan defense, but they're not throwing in the towel.
I find it wickedly delicious that we are likely committed to Gerg and the 3-3-5 for at least a couple more years. Why? Largely because of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" meme. Specifically, I think that with a 8 - 4 record or better, you don't change things. In a sense, because of the Shafer flameout, Gerg will be given more time. (if Gerg was the first DC, you could contemplate a change. As the 2nd under RR, he gets a longer leash, as to release him would be for RR to admit failure.) You simply can't change the DC again. Whether you like the 3-3-5 and Gerg, going to a 4th DC would be disastrous. Also, because of the lack of emphasis on recruiting defense adequately, and because of the Demar and Cissoko and Turner and Emilien flameouts, none of which Gerg can be blamed for, it is likely he will be given several years to get skilled athletes in place, before he is judged.
This, for someone like myself who thinks the 3-3-5 is a good scheme, and Gerg is a good DC, is just fine. But it must be schadenfreude for those who love Michigan yet dislike Gerg. Like him or not, I don't think he's going anywhere, anytime soon.
October 5th, 2010 at 11:48 AM ^
The 3-3-5 gives us the best chance to win. Like it or not, college football offenses have a much harder time having to convert slowly down the field then when they have a good chance to make a big play. Who in the secondary do you think can cover a real Big Ten receiver one on one? Until we can employ lockdown corners, the 3-3-5 soft zone is the smart move.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:31 PM ^
I think it's RR, not Gerg, who's committed to the 3-3-5.
I will continue to hate the three-man rush in the face of all sorts of optimism, statistics, and sophistry. All it does is give opposing quarterbacks all day for their receivers to get open against our secondary. Chappel had his freaking way with us and gained almost as many yards as DRob, and no, he is not the best qb we'll face this year (Cousins, for one, is much better).
If we refuse to put pressure on Cousins this Saturday, we're screwed.
October 5th, 2010 at 1:19 PM ^
we may be committed to it, but are we committed to lack of qb pressure. Blitz everyonce in a while
October 5th, 2010 at 2:10 PM ^
...the LBs and secondary, they don't appear to be communicating on the field effectively. I've even noticed the players making comments during the pressers about people trying to do more than expected and cover someone else's responsibility. Specifically I'm talking about the LBs/Spurs. I've played and/or coached LBs for nearly 30 yrs and the one constant with great LBs (not me but great LBs) is anticipation of where your teammates will be during the play and the feel and direction of where the receivers are flowing. I did see a lot more jamming of crossing routes, mainly by Mouton, but definitely an improvement in that area overall.
The Corners and safeties aren't really in sync yet either, its coming and hopefully it'll be there this weekend but I saw a number of times where there was no WR/deep threat pressing on one side and the corner and safety on that side stayed in their backpedal too long and could have broke on the route or even the ball a number of times. I know they are being told to not get beat deep but with help over top by the safety, they can afford to press a little more (and I'm not saying they should be 2' off the line in straight man/press). Cam is looking better every week but he was 2-3 steps late on the long pass to Doss. I cant remember if he had someone holding him in the middle of the field but with a pass in the air that long he needs to be close enough to at the very least lay the guy out and possibly be in position for a pick. I know GERG is taking care of business, its up to the guys to trust each other and that comes with more playing time with each other. We all need to remember this entire secondary got an unwanted facelift during camp with the mass exodus and injuries. They're coming together and as you said they just need time to work out the kinks.
October 5th, 2010 at 3:31 PM ^
Listen, I'm all for the bend but don't breat defense and the DB's not letting anything go over their heads for a big play. I get it and you are right on that we can't play man because we can't cover anyone in man. BUT...I would like to see us try to force QB errors by rushing 4 and dropping 7 in a soft zone. Hitting the QBs at the college level seem so have a way of forcing incomplete passes which may get our defense off the field. Even if we don't get a sack, a play ending with Roh or Martin sitting on a QB's head should impact the game.
October 5th, 2010 at 11:51 AM ^
Actually they want to use some four-man fronts, but they're waiting on the development of one Mr. Campbell to establish that. With the defensive personnel we have on roster, we're actually set up better for more of a 4-2-5 look than a 3-3-5. Oh well.
I think a defensive line of Black/Roh - Martin - Campbell - Van Bergen is very solid. We may see it deployed against State?
October 5th, 2010 at 12:23 PM ^
I hope so, If UM DB's can just get a little more sturdy it would be nice to rush four.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:25 PM ^
Any word on Campbell's progress?
October 5th, 2010 at 1:20 PM ^
yeah. He isn't. If he could play, he would obvioulsy play. He is rarely playing. Start asking about Jibreel
October 5th, 2010 at 1:47 PM ^
Campbell's progress is slow, but he's coming along. I think people on here can't grip that fact. If you watch him in games, he still plays too high. But he's getting there. The coaches think he will be very good.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:41 PM ^
I know its to early to look to next season but I am excited about how good that D-line could potentially be next year.
October 5th, 2010 at 1:30 PM ^
Black / Roh DE's and Martin/V.B. as DT's would be nice to see deployed against State this weekend....
October 5th, 2010 at 1:49 PM ^
...however the biggest thing I've noticed about Patterson, Banks and Big Will and their/his progression they are still playing peekaboo around and over the OL where Martin and RVB are able to rage and look while in motion. I really want to see 73 specifically using his size to disrupt the OL enough to cut off guards wrapping around. Need more controlled-aggression please, Mr. Campbell.
October 5th, 2010 at 2:07 PM ^
Count me under the supporters of a 4-2-5. I think it maximizes Roh's ability, and reduces the strain on the linebackers and secondary by making the window for a QB or RB to make a play smaller. I understand the bend don't break model. For the most part, Indiana bent the D until it broke. While inconsistent, the D has some talent that I would like to see given the opportunity to make some plays.
October 5th, 2010 at 5:00 PM ^
it was just bend, bend, bend, bend, bend, TD. It just kept bending, and only had a few smaller breaks.
October 5th, 2010 at 6:21 PM ^
I think we're defining "break" differently. TD after TD is a break, regardless of how many plays the drive took.
October 5th, 2010 at 11:52 AM ^
1-10 defense with only Mike Martin up front.
October 5th, 2010 at 11:58 AM ^
I got so excited when I saw this title. I was all like "Hey! Another defense thread!".
October 5th, 2010 at 12:54 PM ^
Stay away from drugs, m'kay?
October 5th, 2010 at 4:56 PM ^
Hey, just because I might label something as smut doesn't mean I'm not going to look at it.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
i really like the play of jibreel, as a freshmen you see the potential is already there. Still odd seeing him wear 55. I would love to see more Craig Roh on the line vs State. I definately see Gerg mixing things up with Martin. Him moving to defensive end even a couple of series, will make state do screen passes or runs away from him.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:35 PM ^
That was one nasty defense. The front three consistently broke into the back field, they fired in blitzes from 6 different positions and shut down Oklahoma's offense in the 2008 Fiesta Bowl. It was a thing of beauty.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:48 PM ^
Agreed. A 3-3-5 is not that different if you have 3 down line, one larger LB who kind of ressembles a DE (Roh) and at least one of the 5 DBs is small/cover LB sized.
The whole problem is with our current personnel/scheme we act like blitzing is illegal. None of those nasty fires from 6 different place type of Ds. We have 3 man rush and a ticking clock of doom.
October 5th, 2010 at 9:31 PM ^
But I've been telling myself we've been saving our blitz packages for when we need them. IE: bulk of Big Ten schedule.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:38 PM ^
Wow, if Greg is doing a "fine job," I would hate to see what our defense would look like if her were doing a poor job.
October 5th, 2010 at 1:10 PM ^
I think Gerg will change what he does somewhat when he has better personnel. The combination of freshmen, and sub-par talent, could be lethal. Actually, that we have done as well as we have is what amazes me the most. Our defense this year is on a par with our offense the last two years. Mallett, Threet, Sheridan, none of them were right for what RR wanted to do. To add some corners and safeties and linebackers with speed, mobility, and size will go a long, long way to eliminating problems.
It has been said before, by Bo, IIRC, that how you coach when things are tough is a greater measure than how you coach when you're sailing along with no cares in the world.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:40 PM ^
- If we can get some early stops and avoid 21 points in the first half like we did against the Hoosiers. To do this we need to apply more pressure early in the game. Even if we sneak a 4th rusher in on a few more plays in the first quarter and play our CB's a little closer, we can improve the odds of a rushed throw, short pass, or an interception.
- If the offense can get to an early lead and keep adding to the total points. Need to sieze the momentum and keep the throttle wide open on the offense whether it is long plays or steady drives. TOP does not matter as long as we score.
- We can find some benefits from a punt or kick-off return and get position at mid field. We have speed and talent to have good run backs if the blockers can do their job.
Since our offensive game is so wide open, other teams are responding with a similar attitude to open their playbooks or go for it on 4th down. If we can get to a quicker lead earlier in a game, the opponents will try to go longer and we will get more incompletions or interception opportunities.
Start clearly winning the first half of our games and our chances for success improve greatly. Counting on the odds of having the ball last and our chances to win a game go to 50/50.
October 5th, 2010 at 2:19 PM ^
...if they force just one turnover/game.
Give this offense an extra possession and they win every time.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:49 PM ^
My biggest problem with the D right is that we are totally wasting Craig Roh. Dropping him into coverage on so many plays is an absurdly bad use of his talents.
October 5th, 2010 at 2:40 PM ^
in this fashion after Herron went down. With Herron back this week, I bet Roh gets to rush again.
October 5th, 2010 at 3:27 PM ^
That's what is driving me crazy as well. Roh is such a good pass trusher that it seems like a crime to be dropping him back into coverage.
October 5th, 2010 at 12:58 PM ^
What was the primary defensive set for Gerg's defenses in Texas? I think it's common knowledge that we're currently running this defense out of necessity. Based off his track record does anyone have any insight on what Gerg would like to run once the depth is established? I'm not sure I can take another year of a 3 man rush, but I completely understand why we're doing it.
October 5th, 2010 at 3:21 PM ^
As the name implies, I live in Austin. Have to follow UT by proximity and friends. Went to a couple games during the GERG coached year. Important thing to remember, in his year at UT, he had 3 of 4 D-lineman who went to the NFL, at least 3 of 4 DB's that went to the NFL and D. Johnson as a hybrid linebacker, with 2 other LB's that were multi-year starters. You can't compare between UT and UM right now purely based on available talent to work with. That said, I can tell you, no one worried about the D for the year he was here.
October 5th, 2010 at 4:18 PM ^
So like Ron English in 2006?
October 5th, 2010 at 6:09 PM ^
October 5th, 2010 at 1:02 PM ^
I believe that you will see more 4 man fronts (even with a LB blitz!) against State and some of the more run orientated offenses in the Big Ten. Those teams generally want to run and pass once the run game is established. This means a lower percentage of pass plays. Thus, it will be a safer bet to commit more players to the D-line without worrying about a ball going over our head to a wide open WR (or TE - damn Rudolph) on every play.
I also expect the defense to do better in the games against "typical" Big Ten offenses than against IU. IU's offense was perfectly set up to play us - what it does best our defense does worst. IU launched more than 60 passes against us. That's 60+ plays doing what they do best and we do worst.
However, with more balanced teams, there will be more running plays. Our D is both better suited for the run and able to play 4 guys on the line. (Unless they take the day off like they did against UMass.) This should lead to a better performance. Not because of the 4 man lines, but because the offense run by these other teams is not based on what we suck at. It will be interesting to see if Dantonio et al change their game plays to pass more.
October 5th, 2010 at 1:00 PM ^
I do not claim any great understanding of defenses/alignments/schemes beyond "don't let them score and, if possible, don't let them get first downs" but allow me to make an argument for why the 3-3-5 alignment can work.
There's the old adage about passing*, that only three things can happen when you throw the ball, and two of them are bad. Technically there are four, because you can draw a pass interference penalty, but we'll deal with that in a moment. If you force the opposition to pass, especially if you have a better than not rush defense, if you can keep them in front of you, they will likely hit a spot in a drive where they fail to convert because of a poorly thrown ball, a drop, or heaven forefend, good coverage. If you play smart, crisp, and stick to your assignments, it should eventually work out for you. The key is making the other team pay for giving you the ball back, and limiting any damage done to you on defense or special teams. Which reads as being much more simple than it is, but it's the truth. Make them make more mistakes than you do and capitalize on those mistakes whenever possible.
*-Which, in quick research, I found attributed to Bo, Woody, Darrel Royal, Bear Bryant, and about six other legendary coaches.
October 5th, 2010 at 1:01 PM ^
Did anyone ever think there may be more than one phase to this season, and so far the coaching staff has kept it simple because they could do so and win.
If you were Rich, and your job was on the line after having your ass handed to you in Big Ten play the past two years, would you show everything in non-conference play?
I know the past two seasons how we played in non-conference play, is how we played in conference play, but I keep hoping the gloves come off over the next three weeks ...
October 5th, 2010 at 1:12 PM ^
I mean, maybe we have some stuff in the bag on O, but does that really matter? Its hard for me to believe we'd let IU and ND come back and almost beat us and not bust out our A game on D. Now I think its possible as the players develop, the playbook can open up a bit on both sides of the ball. At least thats what I'm hoping for.
October 5th, 2010 at 2:12 PM ^
The original fear was that switching to a 3-3-5 meant a switch in strategy from a strong defensive line, and in overall player mass to stop a strong running attack, which conventional wisdom says is the bread and butter of the Big Ten.
Now, we are blaming the 3-3-5 and alternately GERG with the lack of blitzing, and sending 5+ people to crush the QB.
The only thing limiting us from sending more than 3 people to rush the QB is to have more people covering the increased amount of receivers being sent out to catch a pass. We will not be able to blitz until we have secondary players talented and experienced enough to cover man to man. This has nothing to do with the 3-3-5 formation strategy, and would have something to do with GERG if you think he is too inexperienced to understand that if you send more than 3 people after the QB, who is protected by at least 5 if not 6 people, you increase the chance of a sack/TFL.
So what I don't understand is why everyone thinks that GERG and Coach Rodriguez are really this stupid? What in their previous performance indicates that the reason they are making these play calls is for any reason other than the 5 freshman he is putting into the secondary?
The reason the Indiana game was close was the inability of the offense to move the ball in the 4th quarter. The defense got the stops, the offense just decided it was more exciting to wait until Indiana tied it before making the final score.
The past two games they have tried out more of the freshman players on defense. I think that GERG is close to increasing the blitzkrieg, and hopefully based on a couple of corners emerging as being capable of man to man.
Didn't anyone notice that Floyd was being deployed as an extra roving Safety, and was occassionally showing blitz at the line, only to back off on the snap of the ball to cover the deep routes?
was I seeing something else?
October 5th, 2010 at 2:20 PM ^
I know you all or at least most of you want to see more blitz packages but last week they would not have been effective. Chappel has a quick release and is more than capable of making the hot read. Also Indiana's offense is designed to spread you out in the first place.
If MSU gives us I-formation I would expect to see more of a four down lineman look than we have seen in recent weeks. If not commence bitching about Gerg. This week will give you a pretty good idea of how we are going to line up against traditional Big Ten teams.
October 5th, 2010 at 4:57 PM ^
We aren't running the stack. Brian has covered this. We are running a more standard defense that happens to loosely fit the 3-3-5 model.
October 5th, 2010 at 5:16 PM ^
got a free run on one of his blitzes. I believe it was a third and relatively long. The RB, I believe Willis, just happened to make a great play and get across the formation and chip Floyd just enough to let Chappell get the pass off. Perhaps we can test MSU's young backs, namely Bell, to see how they handle blitz pick-ups.
I think some zone-blitzes would be nice too. Martin showed his athleticism by running down that jailbreak screen from behind, so perhaps he could drop into coverage on occasion. I thought a strength of the 3-3-5 was the ability to blitz while playing zone coverage behind it and not relying on man to man from your corners.
October 5th, 2010 at 5:21 PM ^
I like GERG, and I think he has a good defensive mind. He didn't get hired at Texas, the Broncos, Cuse, or the Chiefs because he's a completely incometent boob. The 3-3-5, I think, is a temporary thing, so he can at least try and make up for the poor secondary issues. Once Woolfolk comes back next year, and JT Floyd is a year older, and all the backups aren't true freshmen anymore, will we see other schemes. For now, he just wants to make sure the big play doesn't happen as much as last year.
Imagine what he's going to do to all the LBs that come in here, judging by what the leap was with the LBs from last year to this year.
I do have a question though. The CBs playing 10 yards at least off the ball...is that GERGS idea or Gibson's?
October 5th, 2010 at 5:49 PM ^
I was also wondering that myself. I hope when the secondary gets more experience the 10 yard cushion of the CB's will lessen, especially when we face the power running attacks, ie. State, Wisky and OSU. I too hope RR will let GERG do his thing and focus on Offense. Just like Saban solely focuses on Defense and he sticks to that side and lets the offense to the OC!
October 5th, 2010 at 5:54 PM ^
Is anyone watching the same team I've been watching????? yes we have babys back there but the linbackers have no esxcuse, these guys r seniors and I've seen them time after time be out of position, fallin for play action, missin tackles, not reading the plays correctly, taking plays off, no pass rush etc and now come's a run powerhouse team with smash mouth intent!!! This is a game that will expose GREG for the good and the bad.. this game will tell if he can adjust to the offense thats in front on him, this game will be GREG'S game to win or lose, cause all the team in greens gonna do is smash us until we pull up our maize pants and be agressive enough to stop em, I mean how is it so hard to stop the I formation, either its run, play action or the tight end pass.......HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!!!! O by the way it's been broke, this weekend will justify it needs to be fixed.
October 5th, 2010 at 9:35 PM ^
Have you watched gametape of what the LBs did last year, and compare it to what theyre donig now? There's no comparison. Robinson righted alot of what was wrong with the LBs. Mouton improved leaps and bounds, Roh improved abit, the only one that seems to be about the same is Ezeh, which means they should just let him rush the passer, because that's all he can seem to do anyways.