I'd say 5-7 and that is being optimistic. I am sick to my stomach after watching that.
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
(For us, obviously.)
So allow me to do the honors.
M will be fine. The full offense isn't installed yet, and at least the defense looked to be a bit more confident. No real prediction can be made from a spring game. Spring game? We're talking about spring game? Jump to conclusions much?
I know it's important, I honestly do but we're talking about the spring game. We're talking about the spring game man. We're talking about the spring game. We're talking about the spring game. We're not talking about a real game. We're talking about the spring game. When you come in the fall, and you see 'em play, and you see 'm play right, you've seen 'em give everything they've got, but we're talking about the spring game right now.
Considering they will more than double their practices under the new regime before they play a game, I'd say nobody has any clue.
And I'd leave it at that.
The spring game is a glorified scrimmage. Barely half of what the coaching staff wants to do has been installed. First game is 4.5 months away with a hell of a lot more practices between then and now.
To base any predictions on one scrimmage is ridiculous.
I will make the prediction that the BTN won't fuck up the actual game coverage like they did today. 4.5 months of practice better be enough for them, or I will return home and pillage their studio in Oakbrook.
I predict that BTN will still miss more Michigan snaps than Denard and Devin combined.
Oh and apparently we've added a few players and GERG is still on the payroll. I have a good feeling about Greg Robinson, Ray Roundtree, and Steve Hopkins this year.
I can't believe we paid money for GERG's services. If it were up to me, we would have paid him in complementary hair care products.
4.5 months away.... (insert big, heaving SIGH here)
True, but I do feel like in the past, the spring game gave us a pretty decent idea of where we're at as a team. Last year, we saw that Denard looked much better, as did the entire offense. Obviously, it's one scrimmage. But from what we've read about practice- from Due 51 and GBMW- it didn't sound too good, compared to what expectations were (competency, not a ton of unforced errors, some explosion). What we saw today seemed to jive with what practice observers were reporting, and, frankly, it was pretty disappointing. We looked like we did in the spring game 2 years ago; definitely not what I, personally, expected. I'd be lying if I said I was 't concerned. And everyone jumping down people's throats: of course- new regime, etc. But still, for the returning talent we have, at least on offense, I think that was pretty disheartening. I DID like what Borges was running on offense; I just didn't like our execution.
against lightweights, except (probably) ND.
We've got a looooong time and lots of reps ahead of us to get better before we get into the tough part of the schedule.
This is probably going to be key. Assuming that in the summer the team develops beyond today's poor showing, they will still need to develop during the season to be competitive in the Big Ten schedule. So that opening stretch of home games against (mostly) light competition may serve as a sort of preseason when the team develops to real competency. I wouldn't be betting major dollars on the Notre Dame game, however.
That's more like it.
it's one practice...Indy or bust
They weren't showing a lot of their collective hand, I don't think. I'm not too concerned about the spotty QB play either. It will be there in September.
It's April IPFW. 5 more months of workouts and improvement.
i predict we still wont know anything for sure till september
my prediction is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
wow people need to chill and take the positives from this. The defense looks alot better than last year. the new system is going to take some time. Im actually pumped to see the defense. I think the new offense will get it figured out by this fall. anybody else think gardner will start a couple games this year?
I can't help but think that it will be more because Borges has failed to play to our offense's biggest strength (Denard) than Gardner overtaking Denard.
Denard couldn't hit the broad side of a barn today. If Denard is going to start, he has A LOT of work to do in the offseason. I don't care which system you are in; if you throw like that, you will not win many games.
What if it was one of those two story barns, with the big domed roof? I think he could have hit the very top of one of those....
Tacopants had an extended cameo today.
The weaknesses in DR today were the same weaknesses we saw from DR last year. I love the kid, but if he doesn't learn how to throw a touch pass we're in trouble. Taco Pants is out of eligibility.
On a positive note...Carvin Johnson is gonna be awesome!
Tacopants is absolutely not out of eligibility.
I only watch it because it's football. I don't try to take much from it.
what spring game have you ever seen where you thought they were going to be NC the next year? new coach new system and what 3 or 4 weeks of practice give me a break and wake me up in august before the first game and we will talk
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. They have only had 15 practices with this new coaching staff. Wait until summer workouts and fall camp, before we pass judgement.
That's funny, I've watched several spring games this spring and they all looked just as bad as this game. Calm down!
This honestly makes me feel better. Perhaps I was expecting too much, especially after last year's game where, in retrospect, a.) it turns out our D was awful, and b.) Denard didn't throw as well as he did in the spring game for the second half of the ensuing season.
Oh my God. People are freaking out after a spring game now? A post like this usually comes after getting beat by Toledo or App State. Not a freaking Spring Game.
Last year's offensive portended a good offensive unit, but the flip side, an underachieving defense,was e ident as well.
Don't forget the last few years the spring game was 1's versus 2's. I'm starting to think that was preferable to the panic and gnashing of teeth going on right now over a damn scrimmage five months before real practice starts. Screw actual learning and prepping for game situations, let's just let starters shred the backups so we can make Tate and Denard highlight videos set to music like before.
Isn't doing us much good now. The music videos and t-shirt are nostalgic though.
Jesus, it's spring. I'll make a comparison to the one other spring game I paid attention to last year. It was Stanford's. In that game not a single offensive touchdown was scored. The defense kicked butt, and that worked out pretty good for them. True, we don't have Luck and we have new schemes this year, but just chill. Be happy the D looked like it knew what it was doing. We have enough playmakers on offense that I think we'll be fine.
So we finally got that at least.
The real wailing an gnashing of teeth should have come last year and the year before when our Defense in the Spring Game looked like traffic cones.
I predict more playing time for Jake Ryan
Damn my slow internet connection. I ALSO predict many a runningback wetting their pants at the sight of Mike Martin blitzing off the edge.
Damn stupid internet again.
check out the front page post over on the wolverine blog, that was posted like 2 days ago and ought to calm you down a bit.
or it doesn't exist.
Google "The Wolverine Blog."
If that's too hard for you: www.thewolverineblog.com
Incidentally, Brian has a link to it on the side.
I think you need to man up and make a prediction.
I predict football will be played...and in every contest, one team will win, one team will lose. So it shall be.
I will give you a prediction which will make you happy. Starting QB will be #4 from White Lake, MI, Steve Wilson. Book it.
Worst. Mastadon. EVER.
i will always giggle at big wil dropping back into coverage.
I predict Matt Wile will be the starting FG kicker and blow our minds when he actually makes a FG.
I would say thats the likliest prediction I've read yet. For our current kickers, how in the world did their high school kicking translate so poorly to college level?? These aren't walk ons, they were relatively well regarded when we brought them in, and unlike every other position the increased level of competition isn't going to be that big of a factor when you are kicking.
Wow. Hope I'm never in a foxhole with you. You roll over quick.
i predict denard will spend more hours a week in voluntary practice this summer than i will spend in a month at a real job
Do you work part time?
Lets see some record predictions. You all are attacking me but I see very few predictions. Man up or are you scared?
Why would anyone waste the space to make a prediction that has almost no basis?
All of my predictions are based on irrefutable sources...the Mayans! And the Mayans said that in the year 2012, Michigan football will destroy the Earth! So it is written. In other words...book it!
I predict we will be somewhere between 6-6 and 14-0.
Does that help?
I think people are "attacking" you because you predicted a best case 5-7 record and said you were sick to your stomach over the Spring Game.
Just take a step back and re-read your OP. THATS why people are attacking you.
but I'm too scared to make a prediction, because I'm in awe of your awesomeness, IPFW_Wolverines.
We already know he has a torch in one hand and a pitchfork in the other.
Light the torch then?
Obviously, IPFW breathes fire.
I didn't have a massive problem with Borges's calls for the spring game. I think both QBs could use a lot more work with reads and drops, but I think the "last read is run" for Denard should work pretty well once he smoothes out the rest and I think the play action is going to be a lot of fun to watch next year. I also predict Smith is going to have some heroic runs on little out passes.
He's going to be a YAC machine in this offense.
love Greg Mattison after watching Quinton Washington drop back into pass coverage!! Awesome!
D is still young but they will be better this year. The offense being majority of upperclassmen will be fine be it Dennard or Devin at the helm! Go Blue!
Ya, lots of talk but no record predictions. Cowards.
Negs can't return soon enough.
not making record predictions after a glorified scrimmage and a grand total of 15 practices prior is being a coward. It would be dumb to make a record prediction at this point.
See we have some real positive individuals in this thread. Jesus, could you guys wait until the team gets some more practices under their belt, before going the doom and gloom route.
With the evidence from the posts in this thread than predicting a record with the evidence we got in the spring game.
Look up, cowboy. I made a prediction.
9-3 hotshot. Also, go fornicate yourself.
Dark Blue had his moments during the game. I'm optimistic.
6-6 with Devin starting
Two picks and running like a chicken with his head chopped off against that terrible defense? Bad.
Man, his deep balls could be something special though. They weren't very accurate today, but someday...
No.... No. He's never going to connect on a deep ball if he throws into double coverage every time he does it. He's far too greedy.
He looked much better than Denard, though. I don't think that DG will start after what I saw today, but I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility.
I don't think he looked that much better than Denard. Denard had that long run to start the game and could have had more if contact was allowed. Devin had two interceptions of his own, and Stokes(I think it was him) definitely pushed off pretty hard on that deep ball td while Dileo(again I think) totally bailed him out on the deep ball from the endzone. Neither one of the qb's were great today, but I'd say they performed similarly rather than saying that Devin was that much better.
IPFW, you can't make a prediction off of a spring scrimmage.
With your prediction...if Michigan were to unfortunately go 5-7 this season will you come back on here and rub our faces in it? Like, "haha I WAS RIGHT, the team that I really like went 5-7 and you all couldn't grow a pair to make a prediction!!"
Really? This is why you won't make a prediction? Becuase you are afraid some anonymous message board user may "rub your face" in it later?
What a shame to do that to that offense. Are you serious? Wow.
The offense will be fine. We have too many playmakers not to be well above average by the time September roles around. And, did you notice the defense? For starters they actually made tackles AND were able to bring some pressure up front. Maybe we won't consistently be down three touchdowns at halftime against top 25 teams next year.
I would be shocked if we didn't win at least 8 games (not including the bowl).
Yea, Hoke and Borges came in here and said "Hey, Denard, you're going to be our starter, but we need you to only complete 30% of your passes. Can you do that for us because our offense is based around that?"
But making one of the best offenses in Michigan history take that much of a step back is terrifying. The team has a huge way to go if they want to have a better season than last year. Based on the spring game and how much I would guess that we will improve, I'd say I'd expect 6-6 or maybe 7-5.
Obviously we won't know until fall, but based on what we know know, we can make predictions.
It's amazing how much of the Brady Hoke/Al Borges offense right now seems to be a square peg/round hole issue. I hope it'll be different in the fall, but right now I see no reason to think that.
The sky is falling! The sky is FALLLIIINNNGGGG!!!
so where was that great offense against WI, OSU, and Miss St? We had a assortment of maybe 10 plays that we ran during a game. Good teams figured our offense out. There's a reason a prostyle offense succeeds, its about man on man and match ups, no gimics that can be figured out and planned against. Its about putting your best players in positions to make plays. We have playmakers, lets judge them after more than just 15 practices.
People continue to allude to this unstoppable offense of a year ago which simply did not exist against top 25 teams.
Remind me how games SDSU won last year against top 25 teams, including pretender temporary top 25 teams like Utah and Air Force?
How did Hoke's ranked Ball State team do in its MAC champioship game against an unranked Buffalo?
Four of Michigan's losses last year came to the ultimate number 5, 7, 14, and 15th ranked teams in the country. Against Wisconsin (No. 7), for example, Michigan scored more points (28) than any other team except Iowa (30).
This meme among MANBALLophiles about our offense last year is stupid. We had an excellent offense. We had a terrible defense, and terrible special teams (kicking especially). The old guard hates RR. We threw everything out. To think that we are going to get an upgrade on offense long term with Hoke/Borges is just silly. What top teams were looking to pluck away Al Borges? You think Auburn wants him back? Hopefully the offense will be tolerable, and we will win based on Mattison's defenses. Bill Stewart managed to go 9-3 three years in a row with Casteel heading up the D. Let's hope for the same with our situation.
First of all, the fact that you are actually comparing SDSU's performance against top 25 teams to Michigan's is just another indication of how far the Michigan program has fallen in the past 3 years. As for our offense, touting how many points we put up against one top team who was playing a borderline prevent defense when we scored said points doesn't exactly strengthen your argument. I'll admit, I wasn't thrilled about the Hoke hire. That being said, I feel better about the direction of the team and am looking forward to not being embarrassed against good Big Ten teams.
By the way, you must be so proud of yourself by taking an (annoying) meme, and turning it into a noun. Congrats, you're awfully clever.
Doc, the poster you agreed with called the spread a "gimmick." Are you advocating that opinion as well? You said "this," and added your own point, but I'm not sure if you, too, actually agree that the sprerad offense is, in fact, a "gimmick," and that the pro style works because it "isolates matchups." X's and O's wise, that statement by the guy you said "this" to is monumentally moronic/asinine. I didn't respond to that poster because it's so stupid that I figure most people reading just brush it off; however, you're staying in the fray, so I want to clarify whether you, too, hold the "gimmick" opinion. It's a yes or no answer. If you do, then we can engage. If not, then there's no need really- I can just let that guy's one incredibly ignorant post go, and continue on with my day.
teams in recent years running the Spread, were just running a gimmick offense that was figured out right? If the coaching staff is smart the offense will be a mix of spread and prostyle. You act as though the offense won't still have some spread elements. I agree with your point about not judging the team until they get some more practices, but I can't stand your ignorant viewpoint about the spread.
It's only a gimmick offense if you run a dozen plays over and over again. Some of those NC teams ran a spread that exploited matchups. It sure didn't look like they did that last year, at least against upper tier defenses. It seemed more like go out and run our same stuff and if we get stuffed so be it, but no serious change up at the half or from game to game.
DAMNIT, who let Gary Danielson on the board?
people who were bitching and moaning about RR running a Spread with players who may not fit the offense in 2008, despite there being very little returning experience and talent, are now saying it's alright if the current staff does the same thing with these players. The difference between the two teams is this team has returning talent and experience. Of course I already know what your idiotic opinion is of Denard Robinson from another thread. If the offense doesn't peform this season, the only explanation would be that the coaches didn't utilize the players in an appropriate manner. Do you honestly disagree that a mix of spread and prostyle wouldn't fit the current players the best?
Are you kidding me with this? Jake Ryan looks to be a stud in the making. Taylor Lewan could very well be a future top draft pick. Omameh could be receiving big ten honors in the near future. Carvin Johnson is looking good for a true sophomore. Courtney Avery could end up being a very solid corner for the next few years. Marvin Robinson has all of the physical tools a coach could ask for and just needs some more coaching, which isn't all that surprising for a true sophomore. Please just shut up.
than I thought you were, if you honestly believe the current staff is starting over on the offensive side of the ball. You say what offensive line, based on what exactly? You realize two o-line starters were out for this game right? This is a good o-line when the starters are healthy.
And you missed the point of my post, it wasn't about who gets credit for recruiting who, it is simply that there is returning offensive talent and experience to work with this year, as opposed to the situation in 2008.
Sean Ornery, re: your "offensive theory" arguments: You sound like someone arguing for the Box Offense over the Wing-T in 1950, the Wing-T over the Wishbone in 1970, over the Wishbone instead of the West Coast offense in 1990. If you can't understand why the spread is successful when executed, from an x's and o's standpoint (here's a hint: the same reason the Wing T and Wishbone were in their day, except with a much more lethal pass element: accounting for the QB as a rusher), then I don't know what to tell you. Making blanket statements about a theory of offense that is both tactically and theoretically sound when properly executed really makes it difficult to take any of your other points seriously because it's such a glaring, base level lack of comprehension/judgment that it clouds anything else you say. Like if we were talking science and you could explain string theory, but thought the world was flat (although I think that the world not being flat actually ties in to string theory...in some way that I can't articulate properly).
Maybe a guy named Coly McCoy going down led to Texas getting beat by Alabama.
How you can indict the spread offense because a true freshman seeing his first meaningful snaps since high school couldn't beat Alabama is beyond me.
Than again, you don't think Denard is any good.
so we got an expert here.....No matter what offense you run, you are going to win with talent, plain and simple. Alabama and LSU do not run spreads. Auburn and Florida incorporated spread looks and philosophies on plays but not a true spread offense as say a Oregon. Just cause you go three-four wide doesn't mean you are running a spread...Look at the patriots team, green bay, I guess you call those spread offenses. Its not about being ignorant to the spread, its about employing an offense, better yet a mentality that is effective by exposing match ups and talent with 11 on 11 football and a pro style is most effective at that. Hence why its called "pro style" because its ran in the Pros...gimmicks don't work when talent is much more level
and Florida weren't true spread offenses. They ran almost excuslively from the Shotgun and utilized alot of read option elements, option elements, QB runs, with 3 or more WR's a large majority of the time. What the hell do you call that?
depending on the specific play, you call it a spread look, as UM will do this year as well. as I said, just cause you incorporate 3-4-5 wides, have read options, doesn't mean you are running a spread offense, you incorporate spread philosophies with the personnel you have Are you seriously going to compare THE UF offense with Chris leak with the UF offense of Tebow...? those are both spreads right??? or are they.....we are so quick with the semantics of football, we listen to commentators and analysts call an offense a spread and everyone's an expert......watch the subtleties of the game....all Im concerned with is whether our UM men will win their 1 on 1 matchups, we do that, we win...pro style is the better way of utilizing that...thats all I'm saying.
So let me get this straight. The pro style offense is better at exploiting 1-on-1 matchups than the spread, in which the purpose is to SPREAD the field to put good athletes in open space so they can win 1-in-1 matchups? You realize the purpose of the spread is to take advantage of 1-on-1 matchups right? I swear most people have no idea what the fuck they are talking about on this board....probably because we have so many trolls now
1. Calling people "son," is a dick move. HowEVA, it does seem that you haven't actually examined your opinions on offensive football in at least a decade, so perhaps you're old enough that everyone is younger than you, and therefore using "son" is in your regular parlance. 2. You really don't understand the spread. At. All. 3. Why oh why are teams in the NFL visiting with Urban Meyer and other college coaches, and then employing "Wildcat" type looks? 4. Seriously- do you not realize the entire purpose of the spread as run by Rich Rodriguez is to create and exploit one-on-one matchups?
It seems that you may be referring to pro-style passing attacks, where you look for single coverage, and go to it. Here's a hint: that's what you do in the spread also, both passing and running. Do you understand the purpose of the bubble screen? To get a slot ninja SINGLED UP ON A LINEBACKER OR SAFETY. That's just one example.
Anyone referring to the spread offense as a "gimmick" is simply ignorant. 5 out of the last 6 national champions ran a version of the spread, and two some of the best offneses in the NFL (New England, Indianapolis, New Orleans) run versions of the spread as well.
People are arguing over the wrong thing, here. It's not a contest between spread or pro-style, it's all about how well you run it. Oregon runs a great spread, so they win. Alabama runs an effective pro-style offense, so they win. There's no "better" choice here. The one consistent you'll see is that all those teams playing for the championship, spread OR pro, also played strong defense. Nobody ever won a championship on one side of the ball.
suited to run one style or another. The current players are not suited to run strictly a prostyle offense, hence the reason why there should be some Spread elements as well. To be clear I expect this to be the style we will see from Borges and the offensive staff, a good mix of spread and prostyle elements.
By that same logic we never should have hired RichRod because the players we had were pro-stylers. The Hoke hire was not made to optimize our offensive success this year. It reflects a policy decision based on where Brandon wants this team to go in the long run.
difference between the two situations. What returning starters or contributers did we have in 2008? The offfense in 2008 was going to struggle no matter what the coaches did, that is not the case this year. There is no reason that the coaches can't utilize an offense with some of the prostyle elements, but also spread elements to take advantage of the talent on hand.
I never said I was opposed to the hiring of a prostyle coach/coaches, as long as they could incorporate some spread elements that could take advantage of the unique talents of guys like Denard. And if the coaches don't do that and the offense struggles, they should face the same criticism that RR faced in 2008.
The difference is fallacious. If we were even lower on talent, it could be said it was an even worse time for the transition. Regardless, it has nothing to do with why richRod was fired three years later (for what he did in his third year, not the first year) and what Hoke should do his first year. It was proper for RichRod to run the spread from th start. It is equally proper for Hoke to begin the transition.
As to the degree of remaining talent...that is a subjective assessment. We have a mix of good and even some great players. Most outside observers aren't filled with the fear of God by our roster, though.
the transition is fine, but the coaches shouldn't go full bore and scrap any non-prostyle elements, considering they have returning talent and experience to work with. That returning talent and experience did not exist in 2008, and as result there is a difference between the two situations. The offense has a chance to be successful this year, the 2008 offense was basically a doom kind of situation. I think the coaches are intelligent enough to utilize the players correctly and you will see a good mix of prostyle and spread elements. Do you disagree that a prostyle/spread hybrid isn't the best approach to take this year?
First, Hoke and Borges have repeatedly noted that they are not scrapping everything "not spread." They have said they're adapting to synthesize the strengths of the existing players. Probably we saw less of that today because it is the new aspects of the game which require practice.
Secondly that "lack of talent" RichRod inherited included the two most priductive RB's RichRod had here, two of the best recievers, the most significant defensive players, etc. etc....
Really, the point is all this fuss and bother over the 15th practice is a little absurd. RichRod apologists love to bewail that everyone and everything was against him from the start, and his setbacks were because of blah blah blah. I have no opinion on any of that. My suggestion is you watch Hoke's team play maybe an actual series before condemning the new regime. To do less is just a little absurd.
We scored 28 points against WI -- the second highest of any team that faced them.
Let's see -- Auburn (perhaps you saw how they did last year) put up 17 points and 348 yards against Miss. State, which had one of the best DCs in the country. Michigan put up 14 points and 342 yards -- 3 points less and 6 yards less.
Don't let facts get in the way of your prejudices. You got your old time Bill Stewart/Lloyd Carr -- you never have to feel threatened again!
And say -- how many yards did Carr's masterful use of Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham, and Arrington put up against OSU in 2007?
I'm not in opposition to the spread, I just didn't think the philosophy of a spread we had the last few years won us many 1 on 1 matchups, whether its o line v dline, receivers or RBs, and it wasn't because of talent, it was more so getting our talent in position to win that match up. Teams incorporate spreads into pro style offenses because it can exploit match ups, and we should do that. but sometimes its better to have our O line against their D line, LB on RB, WR on DB and see who makes a play,.
Yards don't mean shit when you can't put points on the board when it counts.
and Oregon ran that man on man stuff all the way to the national title game??
What about Florida and the Tim Tebow era or the 2008 Oklahoma Sooners they beat in the national title game...Texas and Vince Young ring a bell? Pat White Dennis Dixon etc....4 out of the last 6 NCs ran the TRUE spread and LSU was multiple...Bama FYI is a one back zone team. There haven't been a lot of great I form teams either but the trend may reverse
Anyway, there have been tons of really good spread teams so please cut the crap.
both had defenses...we had hair care products.
That you will become one of the biggest trolls on this board and will eventually be banned.
You'd be wrong of course but you are free to predict that.
IPFW chances with the ladies is as good as a squirrel mounting a doberman....c'mon, panic after a spring game?? The offense is new, on top of the fact that they kept it pretty vanilla, and the D looked encouraging. Go play somewhere
This won't be the worst M defense in history.
No, but it could be the worst offense.
You weren't a fan in 2008, were you?
But you beat me to it. "Threet passes... for a loss of 4."
And the spring 2008 game was a highly accurate preview of what we were going to get that season from the offense.
Come to think of it, 2009 was pretty accurate as well. An injection of moxie from the young kid made a spectacularly bad offense look like it might be kinda competent with flashes of good. And it turned out to be.
2010's spring game made me think: "Sweet fancy Moses, Denard got really, really good, and this defense is going to be the worst we've ever seen" (even before Angry Cornerback-Hating God unleashed the Kraken). Pretty much what we got.
Suspect this one was a good preview, too. Some spectacular runs by Denard mixed with many spirit-numbing innacurate throws from drop-back pocket passing, because hey why not, when you've got the prototype Heisman-quality spread QB, why not make him learn 7-step drops? And I think we'll get what we saw on defense-- not the most talented ever, but it will look like it's being organized by an adult for a change.
Unlike the past two spring games, I won't be watching the highlights from this one 70+ times this summer. That I can predict with 100% certainty.
This sums it up perfectly. And it's disheartening. Even if the overall win total doesn't drop significantly simply because we will finally have a competent defense, spending the next five months thinking about a competent defense but a huge regression on offense and the waste of one of the best talents ever in college football, who by every account is a great kid and loves our alma mater, is just not something that encourages me.
Love your avatar. That said, the last spring games were meant to make the offense look good to create a positive impression about the program. It made the first string offense look unstoppable. It made the second string offense look unstoppable. Neither string was unstoppable, merely explosive. And all of this because opur first string defense couldn't stop a pack of hamsters from marching downfield.
I won't be watching this a lot either. RichRod's offense was exciting to watch. It just wasn't that effective. Spring games look bad. That;s the correlation to the first two spring games you mentioned. The last one was really a propagand a piece. Give it time.
The offense should be fine. Borges even said during the press conference that the goal today was to work on the stuff Denard doesn't do as well--like the drop back passing. I think you'll see a lot of rollouts and quasi-spread looks from the offense in the Fall. If Denard learns to tuck and run and turns the ball over a little less, Michigan could have a significantly better offense on the final scoreboard than last season.
The defense is still going to be a work in progress, but as you said, it's nice to think they have a coherent strategy in the works. They'll get torched a few times, but the days of three straight records for most points allowed in a season should be over.
"Sheridan...(long, annoyed pause)...kept the ball...sacked for a loss of 2, it's 3rd and 11."
It took me a while to figure out a scenario where Michigan would have had a 2nd and 9 in 2008, because on the surface it means they gained yards. More plausible:
1st and 10 (Michigan 8 yard line): Defense has too many men on the field -- 5 yard penalty
2nd and 5: Backward pass out of bounds for a loss of 4
That's almost painfully true. Gosh we were something else that year.
I would argue he's not a fan in 2011.
It won't be. They were obviously working on the new passing game, with the QB run game taking second fiddle for this practice (for obvious reasons, injury and otherwise), but I bet that facet shows up game day, and the offense is pretty damn good come week 1. You are being fickle as shit on this thread. Patience.
Melodramatic much? It was blowing 20-25 mph, raining sideways at times and 45 degrees.
What an inacurrate, dickhead, beating-a-dead-horse thing to interject with. Come on, man. Was that even necessary?
I forgot, they play the games in the fall under perfect conditions each time.
It has to be the worst! I mean, after fifteen practices and a lineup filled with more second-stringers and spare parts than a Yuogo, they can't shred an improved defense? Who ever heard of such a thing. I mean, RichRod Khan's offense was unstoppable after fifteen practices! Unstoppable!
are for the ESPN boards, head on over there OP, and you'll be in good company.
I'm sorry but after that I am filled with the feeling that the offense is going to be awful and I can't make a guess about the D-fense, because the quality on the offensive side is alarming and how can you use that as a reference point?
Denard is not a pocket qb(and I love Denard), I kept telling myself they won't ruin him, but honestly I don't think its overreacting at all. Denard was horrible on most of his throws, you can say they havent had enough time, but that doesn't change the fact that he cannot throw accurate passes. That is not his strength and never has been... I understand the issues, but honestly lining Denard under center, in any offense other than the spread, is just a waste of talent. Im not blaming anyone honestly, just observations...
And all this talk about our defense being better is a waste of breath, I believe it will be better, but honestly what made you think that watching this practice? Them picking off inaccurate passes, or stopping mediocre running backs running up the middle? If I hear someone else boast about how Brady Hoke promotes tradition I'm going to vomit. Why do we have to throw away a dynamic effective offense and replace it with what every single Michigan fan wanted to blow up under Carr.
I feel gross... I cannot make a prediction of wins and losses, but I can make a prediction that I will be pulling out just as much hair as last year! Square pegs in round holes, a total lack of regard for anything but tradition, Denard's passes closer to defenders than receivers, loosing streaks to rivals that may never end, 3 yards and a cloud of dust... Oh my!
from muppets who don't suck.
If you had a Gonzo or an Animal avatar, then we might listen to you.
Rizzo is the best muppet (since muppets tonight), I like the fact that sometimes there are many many Rizzos and all of them are snarky. Gonzo is cool, but I always thought his nose looked like a slong, and Animal reminds me of what is essentially wrong with children, endless energy. Still all muppets are winners in my book.
I actually had no idea that this site used Muppets to celebrate, I just love me some Muppets.
Muppet Show, you can't be the best Muppet (Sesame Street excluded).
"Rizzo first appeared in episode 418 of The Muppet Show, as one of a group of rats following Christopher Reeve around backstage."
Without him, till he was an "extra", I'm not thinking that exactly makes him vital.
Ok, ok...was he a Muppet baby?
(No, wait, a negative might be a plus in his favor....)
Rizzo was never a Muppet baby, but honestly could you see a cartoon rat on a kids cartoon show. Though we never did see the lady with the socks face, could have been Rizzo the whole time...
Would have been AWESOME.
You actually know what show your muppet avatar first appeared in?
Surely there are sadder things to admit, but right now I can't think of any.
The M promotion of Brady Hoke and tradition is just pathetic.
Because the media's theme of Rich Rod and "change" was measured, restrained, and barely discussed at all back in '08. The MSM are idiots. Get used to it.
But worse is that a ton of people eat it up, which drives the MSM to produce more and more content like it.
Cool story bro
Last year's offense was neither dynamic nor effective. It was explosive. The thing about explosions is that they only last for a few seconds. The offense was based entirely around treating a magnificent, undersized quarterback like a running back. our offense, in other words, was history's most eccentric wildcat offense. It proved very effective against fair to middling teams. It also proved impotent against good teams. It was also unsustainable- If denard ever got really hurt, and that was coming, it would be the end.
And while the offense was working itself up to greater combustability, the defense went nowhere for three years. I'll say that again- our defense went nowhere, with no sign of trending upwards. That matters more than if our offense HAD been effective and consistent. You can't win with offense alone.
You are right about the offense being explosive and not always effective, I always thought last year that the spread was so streaky, but mind you the stats:
It was effective and could have been better if only for a lick of defense. I didn't think Rich deserved another year, but our offense was top 10 last year, and than the new staff comes in and basically ignores what worked best last year. With the defense being so shotty last year and probably much of the same this year (hopefully not, but realistically), how can you afford to dump what worked? Its the same thing as when Rich came in, forget defense and lets get this offense up to par, only this time its forget offense we have to fix the defense. You aren't gonna win any games with a shotty defense and by making Denard throw.
The most alarming thing I heard during the game was that Borges had no running plays for QB in his playbook, and so he added 5. Wow sweet.
Do you think we ran last year?
Did they really say he had no running plays for a QB in his playbook? I was listening to the WTKA audio. Why don't we ask Mattison to implement a 3-3-5 as well? Uggg.
Wellll...I see what you're saying, and there's some validity to it. I agree, it kind of is altering things back to status quuo ante bellum, but her ethe issue was really that the fan base, by and large, wasn't going to accept a second shot at the spread offense experiment. Don't get me wrong, I think the whole "old guard hates good offenses" line of attack on Hoke is a boondoggle, but it was hard to see another spread coach stepping in. I mean, who would it be? Grahame? I think Grahame is actually a better coach than RichRod was (in that I think RichRod gave birth to the spread, but it has evolved past him), but Grahame brings so much of the same baggage...hyper offense in a less threatening league, with no defense.
I thjink the RichRod experiement left a sour taste in a lot of mouths. Not just in ancient, Bo-era relic mouths, I mean the fanbase at large. You probably wouldn't have seen a lot of support for another spread coach, and we needed some solidarity more than we needed strategic continuity. Hoke hasn't got everyone behind him (re: spread offense affecienados), but no one probably could have done any better.
The last thing to note about the categories you reference above: they really don't mean much. They are skewed by the teams we ran over roughshod, and by the fact that every drive was a long drive, courtesy of our defense. It really didn't translate directly to wins. What i'm saying is, we were certainly closer to a powerful offense with the spread, but we were a long way behind, say, Oregon. I don't think Hoke inherited that much to work with, beyond the quarterbacks. Think about it: how many runningbacks do we have? Richrod collected them. Now how many of them are actually effective? To have that many scholarship RBs with not one really viable option beyond you quarterback is absurd.
I'm saying a spread coach might have (WOULD have) had a smoother offensive transition, but that's short term thinking. The Hoke hire reflects a long term policy decision Brandon made about Michigan's future, and where he wants it headed. If that means a less dynamic year on offense than we might otherwise have had...that was considered acceptable.
Honeslty I hope it works, because I'll be watching even if they suck, and if this goes on for much longer I might loose my wife or mind, maybe both.
But good points and I hear ya, even about the stats you are right, we put up sick numbers against the middle class, still I'm just hoping that we don't revert to the conservative oppression on offense. Thought Carr did have some mean comebacks...
Don't be too discouraged. I watched a lot of Hoke's games at SDSU and he really isn't that conservative. He started out the game against Utah with a passing spread drive that was just a thing of beauty. And against Navy...well, i'm also a Navy fan and expected to see SDSU get rolled, but that was just a flashy game Hoke put together.
This really isn't a Bo-nostaligia offense. I think it looked sloppy today because it's new and they're working on weak spots (like running). I think in the long run it won't be as flashy as a true spread, but it won't be as stodgy as TressellBall.
I hope it works too and don'y know why we can't adopt more of last years offense. All I know is I was often completely bored by watching Lloyd's offenses until they got behind or the last game aginast Florida. Watching the scrimage was extremely painful, I thought Debord was making the calls. Hoping it all works out, I'm not prepatred for "we need 3 years to get our system in place", again.
RB position not in terms of their production last year, but in terms of the talent level. Your right that none of those guys really established themselves last year or played that well, but there is still talent at the position. I expect one or two of the RB's to really step up this season and be more productive. If I had to guess I would say Hopkins, Shaw or Touissant. Saying there are no RB'S for the new staff to work with is pretty misleading, there are guys who have the talent to be productive, even if they weren't able to show it last season.
And as far as the offense in the general I disagree with the notion that there isn't that much to work with. The starting o-line has experience and talent, and the wr position has some good talent and experience as well.
As to the 'Backs, I can only go with what I've seen. Also, RichRod as much as accepted he couldn't wring production out of his backs, which is why he rode Denard as much as he could instead of using the 'Backs to take pressure off him,a s he did with White.
I'm not attacking tehy're talent. Maybe RichRod di a poor job developing them. the point I'm trying to make is that having so many runningbacks with not one real performer is...well, it says something. You can interpret for yourself what exactly it says.
The O-Line? We'll see. They were fairly highly thought of last year, but they got owned by physical defenses. The real question to me is not whether they're good (I think they are) but whether they can do better than under RichRod (underachieved) and whether it will translate to success under a pro-style...can they get push, being the salient question.
I think the receivers are great, except for drops *cough* Roundtree, Rbs might have talent, but last year I just didn't see any of it. Rbs of old that turned out to be great showed signs of it early, I'm just not seeing it and its perplexing cause we recruited a slew of them, hopefully it will just turn out they weren't great for spread but than again they were recruited with this in mind. I didn't mean the offense has no talent, just that this type of play calling is not utilizing it the best it could be.
aimed at you. That was a response to Belisarius's post.
Was "I didn't have any designed running plays for a QB a year ago, or the entire time I was at SDS. I've already put 5 in because of his unique skill set." So it doesn't sound like he's done.
Are you making a case that he should be a running back?
And hey, isn't it great how Hoke promotes tradition?
No Denard doesn't seem to have the longevity to be a rb, I just wish they would have kept the spread, or at least made a less defined change. Like when Rich had Mallet and yet it seemed like there was no effort to retain him. Why waste the talent you have?
"And hey, isn't it great how Hoke promotes tradition?"
My mouth is full of vomit!
Just saying even a running QB isn't going to win a lot of games if he can't throw at ALL, even in a spread. You don't want the spread, you want GT's option offense. Or the Wildcat.
I think the flaw of last years offense was definately Denard's inaccuracy, mainly in his unablity to stretch the field, but he was good on short routes and you combine that with his running ability and it worked nicely. But if you take away his running ability (this year), which took heat off the mediocre passing, and make him rely on his okay arm, and mediocre running backs (who were not good last year) it looks like death.
the problem was, Denard was already a runningback, just one who also threw on occasion. That's why RichRod's system was unsustainable. Whther it was the Pat White/Slate one-two punch combo, Tate Scrambling, or Denard at "Super-wildcat," RichRod usually had one go-to gimmick and a few wrinkles he'd add on to it. Pat White worked. denard as "super-wildcat" was never going to work the same way.
But why would they take away the one thing he does well? Thats all I'm getting at, I feel a tremendous amount of panic because you take away 75% of his game when you make him sit in the pocket.
Well...let me run this by you. i think Borges was trying to send us a message when he started Denard out with that run: "I understand." I really think he was showing us he gets what you're saying- and look at the result! Why didn't we see much of it after that? Because I think this less about proving what we can do in the long run than it was about getting Denard familiar with what he is not yet and needs to become familiar with.
I always thought Robinson's career would depend on his ability to evolve or die. That is...the run could set up the throw, but he couldn't take the abuse that went along with that. it's desirable for him to learn how to set up the run with the throw instead...and I think that's what we're headed towards. He just needs practice instead of relying on what he can do as a crutch.
Maybe he can't do it at all...hell, i don't know. But I think his future and our futures depend more on him adapting to get better at dimensions beyond the run. just a thought.
I was so happy to see him bust that huge run early, hopefully this is the case, and hopefully Denard starts to develop an accurate arm. Cause Devin did not look good today at all either. Kinda scary I thought he would look better today, but today outside of that first run was devoid of hope. That big TD run was a break down on defense.
about our traditions? They're pretty damned important to me, and to 99% of our fans.
Winning is job #1 of course, but no reason we can't have both.
No, I think tradition is important, but its the fettish Michigan fans have with it. It trumps everything, oh the spread didnt work perfectly, run back to the Carr-Bo days, we'll be okay as long as we just run the ball and have no creativity in our offense.
7-5 + a W in a bowl. At times we'll be happy. At times we'll be sad. But winning the bowl game confidently will make us excited for 2012.
8-4 with Denard starting. D will be improved, O will be just fine. We will beat either MSU or OSU, but not both. Bam.
Although it's still early, it looked rough. I am hoping for a Texas A&M style of "Pro Style" football; still fast paced when needed, incorporating elements of spread and allowing the QB to tuck it under and run when needed. They just looked confused. I'm not even convinced the defense is THAT much better, since the interceptions were bad decisions by the QBs. We'll see how it is come September.
Defense looked much better. The Mattison Effect is real! Ecstatic about that.
Offense made me want to cry. I know it's just the spring game, but if you are Borges, all you have to do is put in some film of Michigan from last year and you can see what works. Base your offense off that and find a way to slowly phase Vincent Smith out of the run game. Please. This team can win 9 or 10 games if you don't blow it.
6 Section 1 posts
8 "I'M ULTIMATE FAN THIS UNACCEPTIBULL" events
We have what our eyes saw
What else do we have to go on
Overreacting is what post-game message
Boards are for
Spring games look ugly. If they don't, it is because one side of the ball is really good (SEE last year's offense) and one side of the ball is a disaster (SEE last year's defense). We also have no idea what the staff was doing/emphasizing.
This team is still going to have better talent/experience/depth at 20 of 22 positions (and both kickers and both return spots). I will be very surprised/disappointed if they don't win at least 9 games next year.
game, but weren't a couple of starting o-linemen out for this game? I'll admit I am skeptical about the offensive staff and how they might utilize the players they have, but to freak out like I have seen some do in this thread is going way overboard.
The offense appears to be well behind from where it was last year. Maybe that is a product of the new system, maybe the weather, or few practices. The defense looked as improved as a unit returning everyone and upgrading from frosh to sophmores should look. It was exciting to see the interceptions, but our QBs were the ones throwing them. My enthusiasm has been tempered.
It's unfortunate these things get blown up into this. If we would have played a perfect spring game on both sides of the ball, everyone would be hopping on the band wagon. So, I prefer it to be this way. It makes success more enjoyable as a fan when you never jump ship like some of you asshats. Anyways, taking a look at our schedule, it is pretty favorable to start. The first 6 games are extremely winnable. The ND hype machine has them tagged as "that team" again, but that hasn't stopped us from defeating them the last 3 years. I see a 6-0 start heading in to our first tough Big Ten Game against MSU. We should all be happy that these kids are in the hands of a coaching staff like this for another 4 and 1/2 months. That is a ton of time for improvement, on top of the strides that have already been made. Go Blue!
Everybody enjoy the rest of their saturday watching the Wings embarrass the 'Yotes.
isn't jumping ship. I'll still be supporting the team 100% and I hope they prove me wrong. I'm just saying that the spring game inspired absolutely no confidence in our new offensive staff and gave me no reason to expect any improvement from last year.
What you said is fine and all, but here is the thing. For these players and coaches, this is literally just the 15th practice of the spring. We treat it as the annual spring "game" as if it carries some great importance. The staff knows it is simply a practice, that is why you heard Hoke repeatedly say he would love to have a draft and play a game, but the depth isn't there. The thing about practices is that you are going to have good days and bad days, just as you do throughout a regular practice week. Obviously, this is a glorified practice so there are some nerves as well. It is just too early to be critical of this team. Also, try to look at today from this perspective. Wouldn't you rather see a low scoring game in which the offense struggles and the defense plays a decent game? We have enough returning players with game experience and skill on offense where with 4 and 1/2 months of extra work, they will get there. Defense will keep us in games, so to see the progress there is encouraging.
I would not rather see a low scoring game in which the offense struggles and the defense is decent, particularly not when it's one of the best offenses in recent Michigan history against one of the worst defenses in recent Michigan history (and the 1st string offense couldn't even score once against the first string defense, and the two offensive touchdowns were not particularly impressive from an offensive perspective -- it more seemed like it was just a defensive breakdown on one and a lucky play on the other), and the only thing that really is making the offense struggle seems to be a scheme change from something that worked quite well to something that, so far at least, is not working well.
And I don't think that our defense will be good enough next year to keep us in games if we can't score points.
And did the defense get a lot more practices than the offense heading into today?
Isn't it just possible that landing the Ravens DC makes a difference, while filling out the offensive staff with guys like the WR/Recruiting guy from Ball State (during the illustrious sub-.500 run) and a coach who went from coaching WRs at Cal to coaching a (.500) high school team (before being plucked by Hoke) also makes a difference?
Returning 19 out of 22 starters is going to benefit us. The offense will score points, and this isn't last years defense. I don't believe our defense can get much worse than what it was last year, so comparing this defense under a new regime, to last years is rather pointless. One huge benefit to haveing a young defense last year, is that this year they all have game experience in the Big Ten. I know it is hard to realize after watching last season, and then just watching a rough spring game this morning, but we have to keep everything in perspective. Things will look a lot more crisp come our first game. You cannot put so much emphasis on a meaningless "game".
If you know football, you know these things take time. You are not running on all cylinders by the spring game immediately after a coaching change. It's just not the nature of the game.
I have a LOT more faith than that. Also, I won't disrespect Denard and the boys, most of whom probably read this stuff. We still have some talent, and our coaching staff deserves a chance. Isn't that what all the more intense RR supporters continue to lament?
Fuck, Brady's had three weeks and he's already failed. Pathetic.
No sugar coat-the offense especially Denard and Devin were rough today. The oline isn't there yet. They didn't get much push up front. Ugly
Don't forget to consider that 20% of the starting OLine wasn't dressed today.
Coldwater? Is that you, Doc.? Haven't you gotten kicked off this board yet?
If your outlook for the entire 2011 season is based solely on today's performace, then go ahead and panic. I caution you that you are making a grave mistake.
One guy hit the left bar at 50 yards out.
Wins: EMU, WMU, San Diego State, Minnesota, Purdue, and either Northwestern or Illinois
Loses: MSU, OSU, Iowa, Nebraska, Notre Dame, and either Northwestern or Illinois
Too scared to make a prediction? COWARD.
Still hiding are you? It's okay the internet is a scary place!!
I wrote something mean but thought better of it. Yeah, I'm still scared.
Thanks coach - guess we don't have to bother watching now
hard to watch and gave almost no reason for optimism. Granted its after just a few practices but if you really think our offense is going to be as good as last year (no freaking chance its better) you are wrong.
A truly good defense, and lets all agree, we dont have what can be called a good defense, will stop that offense in its tracks. Thinking that a few more weeks of practice in the summer/fall camp will somehow make this offense even a shell of what we saw last year is just wrong.
We had trouble with real good defenses last year with a very very good offense. This offense is not even close to what we saw last season and its not likely to get very much better than what it was today.
Hoke is a mediocre coach at best according to his record...and now he will face much better teams and defenses/offenses than he ever did anywhere else. To suddenly think he will be the 2nd coming of Bo is nuts. All this rah-rah stuff will fade fast as the losses come. And they WILL come.
I love my Wolverines as much as anyone, but i am a realist first and foremost.
I predict a long and ugly season with no bowl game.
Damn i hope i am wrong.
Would everyone calm the hell down?
Remain calm. Don't let it ruin your Saturday night. It's not like we lost today.
Something like 8 or 9 wins and then a bowl game. There, I made a prediction and proved my manhood.
This team went 7-5 last year. They were one of the youngest teams in the country. They return 20 starters, loads of other contributors, and have a bunch of highly rated young guys with the potential to make huge strides in the offseason. Oh, and the QB finished 6th in the Heisman Trophy voting as a sophomore. And the schedule gets easier.
Thinking this is a recipe for a 5-7 season (based on the results of an uninformed viewing of a practice in cold weather with many key contributors not participating) is completely retarded. Complaining when people point that out is even more so.
Thank you for pointing out the exact reasons why everyone should be terrified after today's game.
Or read it all.
And "cummer workout regimen" for all eternity.
Or at least till Western Michigan when the world is apparently ending.
Where was VanBergen all game?
Hoke said in the presser that Ryan got banged up on Thursday and tried to go, but couldn't do it.
I predict that most who defended RR to the end are in their hearts pointing at everyone else and saying a Nelson-like "Haha!"
If people are doing that, it's stupid. Almost as stupid as all the RR hate that went on.
Oh, I totally agree with you, but I gaurentee you there are still people out there that are thinking "see, this is what I told you would happen if we blew up RR's offense and brought in a sub .500 coach". I personally am much happier to see a defense that looks like it knows what it's doing. That will make the offense better come fall as well.
Didn't see the spring game.
D will be much better, o more consistent than last year's record-setter-or-disappearing-act. Will beat ND, shock sparty on road and pull it out v. Iowa. Neb a washout, probably tosseru loss, maybe get upset by Norwest or Illini.
8-4, maybe even 9-3 - plus a bowl WIN.
This will prove to be difficult and will everyone be patient with Hoke." Wait until he get his players to fit his system." That Will be the same thing we would have said about RR. 3 or 4 years to build his product.
Magnus has 4 more months to talk about how Mike Cox should start.
Do you disagree with that assertion?
Proves it. I also don't know that we have any better options. I'm kinda neutral on it. I'd like to see him get a chance to succeed or fail in a real game.
I just knew at the game seeing Cox break it long my first thought was "Magnus must be loving this". Because he had some nice ammunition.
I also know Smith on 3rd and 1 is stupid.
I predict that we will finally have our own long blonde-haired LB in Jake Ryan. As for the other stuff...I will be patient and hope that it all comes together over the next four or so months. We will be good again!! Go Blue!!
Michigan goes 7-6 with a bowl win. I didn't watch the spring game and I still have just as much of an idea about next season as someone that did.
You saw Steve Wilson throw more passes today than you will all Fall.
a lot more summer and fall practices, the team will look different than it did today. Relax. Dont read too much into today. It was a scrimmage. Blah!
1. Defense will be much better. They will still be susceptible to pounding ground attacks like Wisconsin. Aggressiveness of the defense will generate a lot of screens by opposing offenses, but may save us from deep throws against our corners (maybe). Jake Ryan is someone to watch.
2. Offense will be a weird hybrid of spread/shotgun and pro-style. Shogun-style? Devin made some poor decisions today, so did Denard. Basically the quarterbacks didn't look like they knew where the receivers were going to be or the receivers ran wrong routes or both.
The offense looked pretty much like it did last year against good defenses. I take that as a plus for our defense.
Prediction based on flimsy evidence: Offense won't be as explosive this year, will cause heart attacks and heartbreaks, but will be good enough to win most games. Defense will be noticeably better against weaker teams, good enough against mediocre teams, and sorely tested against the best competition.
Prediction based on no evidence: 8-4
Things to put in nightly prayers: Denard's legs, Will Campbell's "coachability", Manball
7-5 or 8-4 I think the offense still needs time to ease into the system. I think 5-7 is being a bit pessimistic.
Now shut the fuck up
This thread sucks even more now
I really dislike how much hype gets put into Spring Games now, and not just at michigan. Most major programs have their games televised. In our quest for constant football knowledge, we have started to treat these practices like real games. I dont think the coaches and players view it that way People read far too much into a practice session.
Out of all the predictions I've seen here, this is the one that is the most likely to be dead on.
Everyone take a chill pill. If you were there you realize that the weather sucked today. It was really windy, rainy, and cold. Surely not the best recipe for a passing attack.
We were missing key contributors on the O Line
I didn't notice Shaw take any snaps if he did
If the O just railroaded the D today then we would have this exact same thread about how we would suck because the defense was bad. There is just no pleasing fans in a spring game.
Also, why the hell would a coach call a ton of QB run plays today when the qb's were being called down upon being touched? I predict more qb runs will be called in the fall. More zone reads as well.
All of this considered, I don't think we can take too much judgement about the O from this scrimmage. A lot of the good signs from the O last year were the result of Denard playing against one of the worst second string defenses Michigan has ever had. Going against the Mattison 1's while trying to use a new offense is of course going to cause regression from what we saw last year. If I have to make a prediction I'd say 8-4.
I sat in the second row of section 30 so it was really hard to tell what was going on and who was doing it with the running game when it wasn't happening right in front of us. I just never heard his name called over the hard to hear pa. My bad. Also, I missed a portion of the game while attending to a friend's hangover.
The defense didn't have any problems catching the ball.
But the defense also didn't have to throw the ball.
LMAO xD What? Too funny =)
I thought about it and decided to look up the wind speed today - since that affects passing more than anything. 20mph... that might have been the problem.
the ongoing feud between the Hoke versus RR factions, and help unite the Wolverine fan base.
All this game did was ignite an outright bloody war. Each side can claim to see whatever it is they want to see from this Rosarch test of a game. The culture wars will now continue unabated until we achieve 9-3 . . . or 3-9.
Fun times ahead on MGoBlog.
* Sigh *
Actually, they will probably continue when Hoke plateaus around 9-3 a year. A lot of fans didn't like the 3 losses per year with Lloyd-ball. Bill Stewart, probably the best analog of Hoke, has gone 9-3 consistently as a manager relying on a very good DC, which seems to be our game plan. But some of us will always want to see an offensive mind like Chip Kelly, Holgerson, or RR running the team. Add in the fact that we have Denard Robinson on our team now, with almost every starter returning, and the team being coached to run RR/Magee's spread for the past couple years, and some of us will always wonder what could have been with this offense.
Really, man? Lloyd won a national championship, five Big Ten titles, and was a couple of plays away from another title game. This kind of stuff sounds so whiny and entitled to me. Realize that there are a bunch of fanbases (OSU, ND, Florida, USC, Oklahoma, FSU, Texas, Alabama...) that think they should be in national championship games every year, but it doesn't really work that way.
Fans at the big programs all want to win the biggest games consistently, but there can only be a few programs at that level. Add in disadvantages due to location and academic standards, and it will be difficult for Michigan to compete with the Alabama, Texas, Florida crowd consistently. That's why some of us think that you really need exceptional coaching. Look at the number of elite players that are committing to programs like Florida, Alabama, etc., versus our classes. A straight-up, run over them MANBALL strategy may work against Michigan State, but the talent disparity between Michigan State and Alabama is significant (see bowl game).
Finally, there is nothing wrong with going for a solid program that doesn't play on the BCS stage often. Hoke and this staff may be put together a solid, respectable old school program. Mattison is an elite coach. But take a look at our offensive coaches. Check our their resumes. Even allowing for some room for disagreement over Borges, do you really think our offensive staff is elite? That they provide an advantage along the lines that Chip Kelly's offense provides, or Holgerson's offense (a student of Leach) provides?
I do think Hoke is completely likeable, and will be easy to root for. I can see how RR rubbed certain people in Ann Arbor the wrong way. But that doesn't mean I have evidence at this point, based on the body of work of Hoke and his staff for the past decade, to think that Michigan will be an elite program under his helm (like Florida under Meyer, Alabama under Saban, etc.).
"there is nothing wrong with going for a solid program that doesn't play on the BCS stage often"
Are you sure? So while it understandable that we will rarely be as good as OSU, we have now come to accept that being an Iowa or Wisconsin (programs that are solid with rare BCS appearances) is good for us.
If this is he general gestalt of Michigan fans, boy have we fallen.
as OSU" ?
News flash: Throughout our history, we've been better than OSU. There is NO REASON that we will not be as good as OSU. We will not settle for being in the shadow of OSU, period.
Maybe you and I will not settle, but some people think it's perfectly acceptable to be Iowa or Wisconsin.
You complain about Lloyd averaging 3 losses per season, but apparently had no problem with RR averaging 7 per year? Compartmentalization is a fascinating thing.
The point is, if we get back to regular 9-3 type seasons, there will still be some fans who think Michigan, with a different approach, could be doing better. If you think that there will be complete harmony with 3 loss seasons, you are entitled to that opinion.
My friend /no s intended... RR didn't get it done here (fast enough) but I don't think thats the point truss is making. He is simply saying given more time with a spread type coach and our recruiting base... 3 wins turns to 5 then to 7 then to 9 and then maybe more wins on a regular basis, and suddenly you forget the past and are thankful for what you have...a coach like Chip Kelly who does insanely innovative/exciting things offensively & can use his system to even the playing field against the elite. If folks think RR had topped out at 7 wins their batty, Mattison however is doing much better things on D hence the frustration some have is that it's a catch 22 of waiting on something exciting that takes time and maybe has too many bumps and unknowns, or going with something that has been proven to work but may not be as exciting nor have the upside that a RR type might have once things are in place. Regardless of anyone's opinion it is hard to win with the lack of experience and depth we've had the past few years.
Also, Michigan is an elite program if your definition of elite includes history, academics, having a top 15 recruiting base and a great campus. Unfortunately, tradtion alone doesn't cut it in this day and age. I'm not sure we are a truly elite program right now, nor am I sure we have been in a decade. Hopefully, we get back.
5-7. The team looked terrible
Hope those are happy with Hoke
As your English.
RR lovers forget the the HEAD COACH is responsible for the WHOLE TEAM, including the defense and special teams. Last year was unbearable except for the offense, and even that didn't really perform well against top D's. How the fuck can you still be dreaming starry-eyed about the glory days under RR?
For all the bashing, I'd take Carr over RR every time. I was hopeful and supportive of RR while he was here, defended his hire when other UM "fans" didn't like it. In the end though, I don't see how you can even put him in the same sentence as Carr.
For all the winning seasons, consecutive bowls, National title, Big Ten titles, program integrity, etc...Carr will never get a fair shake on this board from the RR jock sniffers. RR will land a job somewhere next year. Some of you should pack up and MOVE there with him.
Defense looked decent thats all that matters offense with come around maybe the coaches are not showing everything yet, did anyone think of that relax this team will be fine.
I'm not overly concerned about the offense after today's game. It will take a little time to learn the new system. But, our D will be improved and help us win a few game we couldn't last year. Because our November schedule is so brutal, I'm going with 8 wins as the most likely. Still, 9 is possible. But, geez ... stop the hand-wringing everyone!
The offense wasn't flashy, but it's not supposed to be. Mattison and Hoke have both made it very clear that we are going to be a very defensive-minded team. I enjoyed watching the defense making some great plays -- they were very aggressive in coverage
I predict 4 and a half months of wild speculation based on little to no useful evidence.
Lick the thread.
Make the thread better.
The thread's been licked? No?
At least the "I" and the "O" are near each other....actually, that looks kinda dirty too. I'll quit while I'm behind.
DEFENSE. I think Michigan is finally on the right track. I think the talent on that side of the ball will finally be better utilized, and with the coaching and aggressive play on both sides of the ball, I can't wait until fall. Finally, defenders knowing how to get off the block and swarm to the ball. Like one of the previous commentors said, the D didn't look like road cones...
lots of things looked "in progress" today, but it was great to see a defense that looked halfway competent on the field again. My god, last year's D was a horror.
Wait! We played a GAME today?
what, you mean the offense isn't the best ever after like 10 practices (whatever it was) in a transition spring? fuck me, we're screwed!
I predict we'll have more people freaking out...Ha Ha!
Ok kidding (well not really).
Here's what I got:
If we don't get serious about acquiring some speed at safety this will serve as the defense's biggest liability. Hoke & Mattison know this. I love Kovacs but he needs a speedy partner. (Raymon Taylor, can you close the deal and grow an inch. or two?). Otherwise, I think we're set on D with one closing note - more competition from the second unit please.
As for the offense and our quest for Manball Supremacy aka "WE will run the power play and get downhill..."SCRAP it. The Coaches should learn some spread. My 2-cents is this ,work the power-play-west-coast-blah blah blah in gradually to the offense.
If Denard and Co. can add a back who can go the distance on any down with zone blocking (there I said it - because that's what we have - an OL of vets who know how to zone block). At this point we don't seem to have that guy. (We have a little Vinny who promptly welcomed Mr. Evans back to the Big Ten with a BLOW at the line! Here Here and what else is new!) It would be so rad dudes if one of our freshmen recruits came in and claimed that role. We'll see...
All in all I think the staff did a tremendous job of placing all expectations where they should be! WONDERING...OH OH OH OH WONDERING!
The kids will have their assignments for the offseason and Denard will...well, he'll come back as Denard. =]
P.S. Mega holds on that Cox run...MEGA! Come'on second units! =(
Does anybody on this staff know zone blocking?
I'm fairly certain some of our more successful running plays were using zone blocking, though I'll have to rewatch the motherfucker to be sure.
You're right that our offensive line has not yet picked up on the blocking scheme, but that doesn't mean they won't. We've been running a zone scheme since the late Carr years and it's a big change to ask of guys who have been recurited to/running that scheme for years.
One comment though:
All in all I think the staff did a tremendous job of placing all expectations where they should be!
The big thing is that I think they drastically lowered everyone's expectations. I certainly don't think they raised anyone's, at least.
I predict our uniforms will continue to look awesome, that is what I took from todays game.
I don't know whether the defense was good or the offense was bad. Either way, I was extremely disappointed seeing Denard and Devin today. Also, we have no established running back, and this kind kind of offense needs a featured back. Hopefully Hopkins or maybe even Cox (!!) can step up. I miss the days of the A-Train, Chris Perry, or Hart running it 30 times a game. Let's get back to traditional Michigan football. However, I think the defense did a good job today. Also we were missing Floyd and Woolfolk in the secondary. I hope Carvin Johnson can lock down that safety spot. He was in the right place at the right time today. I was disappointed by the play today, but I'm extremely optimistic about the upcoming season. We have a very favorable schedule with Nebraska, tOSU, and ND all at home, and we don't have to play Wisco or Penn St. Like many people have said on here, they've only had 15 practices so we shouldn't worry too much. Go BLUE!!
The defense is ahead of the offense. After the last couple of years that may seem bizarre and disorienting, but it's normally quite common.
Our offense has guys that can make plays. I'm not too worried about them. I'm more encouraged by the defense today, if anything.
8-4, tossup in bowl game.
42, 133, Ohio. Lots of slobbering by the Old Guard. Woot.
the defense will be agressive and tackle better.
there would still be some portion of MGoBlogland that would be flipping out.
If the offense ran the defense ragged all day long, people would be jumping off of Burton Tower and shouting "Mattison doesn't know what he's doing arrrghhhh" on their way to the pavement.
If Denard was completing every pass, people would be moaning about defensive backs who can't cover and why wasn't Corwin Brown hired instead of Kurt Mallory.
If Will Campbell had sacked the QB on every play, people would be apoplectic about how our horrible OL can't control an obvious 5-star bust like WC.
If Furman had caught Cox from behind, people would be complaining about how slow Cox is.
It's the nature of intrasquad games—there's something for everybody who wants to make themselves miserable.
100 times this. I'm shocked by the number of "glass half-empty" people on this board. Cox had a very impressive TD run. The defensive pressure disrupted Denard. The defense was not afraid to lay massive hits whenver they could. This attitude makes the Spring Game so much easier (and much more fun) to watch.
Shhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone.
I seem to recall horrible predictions after the M basketball team had a 1-3 (I believe, correct if I'm wrong) stint in Europe.
I also remember the Lions going 4-0 in preseason before going 0-16 in the regular season.
My point: practice games like these mean little to nothing about what's going to come unless something is glaringly obvious. Even then, proper coaching and devotion can help to make these shortcomings a little less horrific. As has been stated for the billionth time, this was their 15th practice in a new system. I will only BEGIN to be worried if they look like they did in this Spring Game a week before Western.
Borges obviously wanted Denard to focus on his transition to the new offense. We all know Denard can run the ball. If Denard went Denard on the D for the entire Spring Game, we would be having this exact same fucking thread with people jumping ship saying "OMG Denard can't run the offense he's a RR player through and through and I like run on sentences and poor punctuation".
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I doubted Denard before his Sophomore year and strongly wanted Tate and his starting experience over him. I will never doubt the man's ability to learn and improve ever again. He'll improve in this system. Once it gets closer to crunch time, the coaches will play to Denard's strengths if he is the quarterback. I mean, having a pocket threat AND a running threat is much more dangerous than just one or the other.
The defense was the big question mark today, and their hustle to the ball and willingness to deliver big hits was a major plus. It's fairly obvious (to me at least) the defense's philosophy has been preached ad-naseum and the players are buying in. Of course they're not going to be 100% adjusted to the new system, but the energy and willingness to fight is as strong as ever.
Prediction? 50+ more threads by the end of the month screaming why Borges is ruining Denard. Oh, you meant W-L? 9-4 with the strong possibility of 10-3.
Offense was horrible, defense seemd to blitz on every play. Like an earlier prediction offense will be worse and defense will be better, I'm guessing 6-6. Not sure why we had to completely break the offense. Oh and by the way, it was boring as hell as well.
I'm sorry Cox's long TD run while plowing over people, DG's touch pass to the corner of the endzone, and DG's bomb and miraculous catch by some guy I don't remember that moved the offense from its own 6 to midfield wasn't entertaining enough for you. I'd like for you to go up to Jake Ryan and Mike Martin and tell them they were boring to watch.
Well then you shouldn't have watched it.
the RR offense from last year against the defensive 1st team this year. Fantasy, I know, but reading the comments on this thread, it would've answered a lot of questions for us common folk.
That said, I think it will be a big mistake if Borges and Hoke insist on establishing pro style as the base offense this season. There is so much upside to this team if the spread and zone blocking remains as the base offense with pro style mixed in as a change of pace. If this happens I see 8 wins as the minimum with a great chance at double digits. If it's mostly pro style with spread mixed in, the win minimum drops to 6. IME.
I hope they learn the lesson from RR.
In 2008 he had some pretty good success against ND and Iowa pounding Minor in the Pro-I. I'm convinced that if he would have run some more of that, especially against the weaker teams on the schedule, he would have picked up a few extra wins and lived to fight another day. He could have installed the spread a little bit less Cold Turkey.
Hoke and Borges DO NOT need a losing season to start off with. By any means necessary, get to 7 wins and a bowl game. There will be plenty of time to install a pure Pro offense.
Shitty as things looked today, it was still better than what was seen against Wisconsin, OSU or Mississippi State
We put up 28 points on No. 7 Wisconsin, second highest total all year by any of their opponents. You compare today's offense to that? I think MANBALL has replaced Charlie Sheen as the drug everyone is on.