F’ing RichRod
ESPN article in which he jokes about his actual turning down Alabama changed the face of college football for years to come. If only he’d taken that job when offered. If only...
April 13th, 2020 at 10:29 AM ^
Disagree. If TP would have went here instead of OSU, I think it could have started to work out very, very well. Was just dealt a bad hand and had absolutely zero support because of his reactions / inability to deal with the bad hand. EDIT That said, I also have absolutely nothing good to say about him anymore after the Arizona stuff.
April 13th, 2020 at 10:40 AM ^
But dude the defense
April 13th, 2020 at 10:47 AM ^
Had TP come to Michigan, we potentially pull off wins against Utah, Toledo, Purdue, and Northwestern. We become bowl eligible and RR isn't on the hot seat after year 1. RR doesn't fire Scott Shaffer and we have a serviceable defense the next two seasons paired with an offense that starts firing on all cylinders as opposed to having first-year starters in all 3 of RR's seasons and the worst defense Michigan has ever season due to Michigan trying to run a 3-3-5 with a guy who has never run a 3-3-5.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:03 AM ^
Yeah I guess that's fair, but idk if a) those wins really would have meant all that much and b) that you can just flip 4 games without saying they lose to like wisconsin or something
April 13th, 2020 at 11:22 AM ^
I agree, but I just picked 4 games that were close. I guess I just don't see it as much of a stretch to think that Michigan wins 6 games that first year. Even 5 would still have people upset, but not like 3 with losses in some very winnable games.
April 13th, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^
Either way, not having that nine loss season on the record books would be preferable.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:40 AM ^
Elite coaches do three things well: adapt, recruit and delegate. You could maybe include organize and align under delegate as well but that all goes under good management practices. He did and does none of those things. He was running a really cool offense for a few seasons but since football is a copycat sport requiring constant change, his schematic advantage was only short-lived (just like every new fangled system) and by the time he came to Michigan, Florida and a slew of other teams were already running a version of it with better talent than he was recruiting.
One player wouldn't have made up for his many shortcomings, even if it might have bought him another season or two. There's a reason his career has been on a downward trend ever since.
IIRC, had Pat White not gotten hurt late in the season, he might have won a national title at WVU. His team's always felt one player from disaster.
I thought his offense and Michigan's brand would help him recruit better, give him some depth to survive some injuries. Maybe even help him win a national title with a third string QB.
In retrospect I think he lucked into building a staff and a system that worked well and recruited well for West Virginia. His successors managed to keep things going (albeit with a big drop-off in the offense, even that first season with a senior Pat White) at the 9-10 win level for the next four years. I suspect RR would have done well enough if he had stayed to have moved to another big-name school in a year or two.
He was just never able to duplicate that at Michigan or Arizona, and then the spread became more commonplace.
I'd also say that Miami and VaTech leaving the Big East helped a lot too. By the time RR was putting his 11-1 type seasons together at WVU, the Big East was: WVU, Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, South Florida, Rutgers, Cincy and Louisville. He had two things happen that really catapulted WVU: his offense was brand new and schools didn't know how to defend it (see WVU's bowl games) and the strongest teams in the Big East (Miami and VaTech) had left for other conferences.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:57 AM ^
counter point: not sure we beat Minn w/o Slippery Nick Sheridan
April 13th, 2020 at 12:10 PM ^
Hey let's not forget Justin Feagin's career game that day
April 13th, 2020 at 12:29 PM ^
We NEVER ever had any chance with TP. He was just playing us and was looking out for who would pay the most money. Going after him probably just hurt our chances with any number of other potential QBs.
We don’t talk about Toledo.
The fact that you had to put Toledo on that list says it all.
Any other Michigan coach of the past 40yrs could beat Toledo with ZERO starters playing on O or D. The second string at M would beat Toledo in ANY year other than if a guy named Rich Rod is the coach.
April 13th, 2020 at 10:52 AM ^
The lack of support was a huge reason Rich Rod floundered. Michigan’s admin had no idea what they wanted as a program and the division between keeping the old method of doing things vs trying something new was evident. Part of the reason why Oklahoma and OSU are the only 2 teams that have constant success in the last 50 years is because the admin know what they want and they’ve consistently modernized their offensive and defensive approach as football has evolved.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:01 AM ^
Totally agree. What happened to "The Team, The Team, The Team". Where was Carr during the transition?
April 13th, 2020 at 11:19 AM ^
"Where was Carr during the transition?"
That's the great question that probably will never be answered, that has generated so much debate among the Michigan football community. It seemed during that time there was a huge divide among former players particularly, in their support of the RR regime. It was thought that Carr was at the center of it, but there really isn't any definitive proof.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:44 AM ^
Maybe Carr started to see some of the signs of the horrible stuff that eventually got RR fired for cause at UA. Prior to the stuff at UA coming out, supporting RR may have been appropriate. Now, post-UA, nobody in good conscience can support him.
But, if you believe Bacon in 3 and Out, one of the first people to reach out RichRod was indeed Lloyd Carr, encouraging him to consider the Michigan opening.
By the time RichRod made it to campus, Lloyd had already told the team he would sign anyone’s transfer papers before RichRod was formally hired and then treated him like a leper once he did arrive.
So, the million dollar question in all this is: Why did Lloyd reach out to RichRod to sell him on the job if he A) already hated him or B) didn’t hate him at the time but found out nasty things about him in a 2-3 week time frame that caused him to do a complete 180 degree turn?
Given Lloyd refused to talk to Bacon about it, we will probably never get an answer. I hope one day we do, but to me that is the biggest mystery of the RichRod era.
Because Lloyd wanted to torpedo Les Miles coming to Michigan at any price, and didn't actually give a rat's rear end what happened to the program after that was accomplished.
I have a feeling there might be something to that, but if that’s not completely shitty I don’t know what is.
It’s the only possible explanation. Lloyd didn’t bother reaching out to Rich Rod until rumors of an unofficial deal with Les Miles broke. If that never happens, Lloyd doesn’t reach out to RR.
Lloyd really went full dick mode once he left. Sideline Miles, bring in Rich Rod, then flush the locker room of what talent was left, then never really campaign to publicly bring the UM base around to support Rich Rod. It was all just one big cluster from every angle.
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R u mad, Matt?
My view: Lloyd turned on RichRod fast after RichRod made comments like, "The country club days are over." RichRod said a number of things that disparaged people. He said publicly, "The last couple of Februaries haven't been good to us" in 2009, basically disparaging Carr AND a lot of players in his lockerroom.
Those comments didn't happen in the two-three week time frame you are pointing to. They came later. I don't think Carr saying he would sign transfer papers was because he hated RichRod. I don't think he did at that point. I think he was basically acknowledging that the kids didn't sign up to play for RichRod, and if they didn't want to, he was going to give them an option not to. It wasn't a move intended to screw RichRod. It was motivated by loyalty to kids he recruited and loved. The hate for RichRod came later.
April 13th, 2020 at 10:30 PM ^
In Bacons book, the part that stood out to me as possibly the moment that Carr jumped hard off the RR wagon was the way RR handled the staff. The description of folks standing in line waiting to go beg for their jobs always sounded like the #1 shittiest way to handle a transition I’ve ever heard of.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:59 AM ^
I am a Lloyd Carr fan but I think he kept his distance and secretly enjoyed how bad Michigan sucked after he left. "See, it ain't so easy is it..."
April 13th, 2020 at 12:18 PM ^
Can't even blame him that much considering how poorly he was treated at the end.
Sorry, but I disagree completely. No coach owns the job, and actually he just did not retire to play golf everyday at Barton Hills, but rather he moved into the Associate AD's position. In this capacity, he NEVER, EVER said anything publicly to support the football coach. Hmmm!
How was he treated poorly? From the day after Michigan beat Northwestern in 2004 till the OSU game in 07, was Michigan anything other that slightly above average? I don’t think we need to rehash all the dong punch losses during that timeframe...It was time to move on from Lloyd. It happened 3 years too late and then made what ultimately turned out to be a bad coaching hire, but it doesn’t change the facts at the time.
See my post below. Fans had lost their minds by then, largely because of his previous success as exemplified by this very comment.
Above average? Did you just black out during the 2006 season? It was probably Michigan's most complete team of this century (only rivaled by the 2000 and 2003 teams - both LLoyd teams as well). It was unfortunate to play an also elite OSU team on the road and lost on a play or two, but that was a great team. 2005 team was a lot better than its record - dong punches you mentioned being the culprit for a bad record.
End of 04: OSU game was a complete embarrassment. Keeping 6 to 7 dinosaurs on the field against Vince Young was idiotic.
05: below average by any standard, the only thing that keeps this from the embarrassment rating is the win in East Lansing and knocking off Penn State.
06: no conference title, no OSU victory, got embarrassed in the Rose Bowl. ‘Good’ season, nothing more
07: Complete embarrassment by almost any standard through Lloyd announcing his retirement before the bowl game
So for the full seasons I have: embarrassing, below average and good. End of 04 was a disaster. Frankly, I think I’m being generous by saying he was slightly above average on the whole for that timeframe.
Is it unfair to expect this program to beat OSU, win big ten titles and win bowl games!?
April 13th, 2020 at 11:18 AM ^
Ou? Blake and gibbs.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:58 AM ^
Exactly. Whether or not someone agrees that RR was the long term solution for Michigan, we should be able to agree that the way we handled the coaching search, and the way half the athletic dept and fanbase immediately undercut the eventual selection was embarassing.
At a time when OSU was hitting their stride, we needed to rally around our coach (whoever that would be), and instead we kneecapped him from the start, because of the capital offense of not coming from inside the Michigan program.
We immediately doomed ourselves to 7 wasted years by doing this, and basically allowed OSU to ascend to the elite tier of college football.
April 13th, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
Oklahoma was okay to bad in the 90s.
I think given what happened at Arizona, we should rethink a lot of the narratives surrounding Rich's time at Michigan. The one thing that was always kind bewildering was "Why did Carr recommend Rich as HC and help connect Rich with Martin only to help all his guys leave as soon as Rich was here?"
And given what we found out about how Rich ran his program at Arizona and the way he treated female staff and overall environment he encouraged, this all seems a lot less weird and church politics.
Because he hated Miles and did not want him here as Michigan's coach.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:29 AM ^
If Lloyd Carr had informed the AD at the beginning of the season this was his last season, things may have turned out differently. I don't believe TP was ever coming to Michigan, and in my conspiracy theory, Tressel told him to drag it out, and screw Michigan.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:46 AM ^
If Lloyd Carr had informed the AD at the beginning of the season this was his last season,
That shouldn't matter. One doesn't hand over the keys of a 9 figure enterprise and not have a backup/succession plan in the works. You never know what could happen... better offer, getting hit by a bus, or going all Chris Petersen and saying fuck it.
I'm not saying Harbaugh should go anywhere but if Warde doesn't have at least three names in his desk right now, Warde is a failure.
Am I excusing Carr for mailing in his last couple of seasons and his rumored role in any rifts? Heck no. But the administration is at least, if not more, responsible for the state of the program at that time.
April 13th, 2020 at 11:59 AM ^
"Am I excusing Carr for mailing in his last couple of seasons . . . ?" As I recall, the second-to-last season was 2006, which was far from "mailed in." Discussion at the time after that was Carr wanted to retire but admin. prevailed upon him to stay through 2007. RR's first season was 2008.
April 13th, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^
Name an AD in history from a power 5 program that had a succession plan for a coach that retired or was fired unexpectedly. Teams that promoted existing staff doesn't count. That's not having a plan, and getting lucky if it works out.
Ohio State has done pretty well the last three times its happened...
So the plan was fire Tressel and hire Meyer. I think not, they got lucky. The plan to hire the current coach was just promoting within, which I addressed in my post.
I guess we see who are not business leaders in this thread.
April 13th, 2020 at 12:02 PM ^
I will always be of the opinion that it wasn't his choice to leave. That was the year they lost to App State (certainly the biggest upset in college football at the time), got drummed by Oregon a week later and lost to OSU at home. I think the writing was on the wall after the App St. game.
Remember - we have really fond memories of Lloyd Carr due in large part to how bad things have been since. Towards 2005-2007, however, people were starting to get sick of "HB Plunge" on 3 and 7 in close games.
April 13th, 2020 at 12:59 PM ^
By the same token, people were insane by 2005-2007 only because of his tremendous (pun intended) success from 1995-2004 during which time he won a national title and five big ten titles while compiling a 6-4 record against OSU. Five big ten titles! 6-4 against OSU!
And even in the three year stretch from 2005-2007 he sandwiched arguably his second best team in there.
People had lost their minds because of the expectations he had created for himself. And yeah, he was not adapting as quickly as he could have. Had a bit of late stage Bobby Bowden thing going, but expectations were way out of proportion for him at the end.
Not only were we fed up with LC, but most of us wanted Michigan to make a move that would bring us into the 21st century. In the epic 06 game vs. OSU, our great defense played in the 4-3 against the spread the whole game. I spent that entire game yelling at Lloyd through my tv. So we were delighted to by a guy like RR, who would bring up-to-date strategies like those being used against us by Tressell. So, yes, Lloyd looks better in retrospect than he actually was.
Don’t count me in your “we”. RR was and is a low rent hillbilly who had no concept as to how to win in the Big Ten or how to connect with the Michigan alumni and fans. It was obvious from day 1 that he would fail.
April 13th, 2020 at 12:34 PM ^
1. LC told the AD he was done the year prior to his retirement. Bill Martin begged him to come back. LC was unhappy, but did come back. Bill knew in plenty of time that LC was in his last year.
2. LC had limited input in hiring RR. Martin more or less cut him out but said he could have two recommendations about the next HC. Martin asked him for an internal and external rec. These were (very informed guesses or better) Mike Debord and Kirk Ferentz. Mary Sue Coleman black-balled KF according to John Bacon and I believe this is factual.
3. LC was rooting for RR to be a success. He thought he would be. I was in his office 1/2 times a week in this period and LC was truly distressed about UM's outcomes that year.
4. LC wasn't encouraging players to leave. He tried his best to keep Mallett in AA but Rich didn't seem to care or work on the problem. LC kept one significant player in AA, when the kid wanted to walk out. LC signed exactly zero transfer papers.
5. LC did not want to look over Rich's shoulder and Rich definitely didn't want this. LC felt this was no longer his program; Rich was in charge. LC was willing to help, if asked, and did help (unbeknownst to Rich) in keeping one of their best players from walking.
5. If interested I wrote a lot about this in The Search for the Unified Field Theory (Football Version) a few years back.
Good information. I believe all of it to be true.
one question: why would MSC blackball Ferentz?