December 7th, 2022 at 9:40 PM ^
...and embedding instructions in this thread from a couple days earlier:
December 7th, 2022 at 10:02 PM ^
Thanks, I'll do it right next time.
December 8th, 2022 at 8:06 AM ^
I would be nice if links would open in a new tab. Perhaps using something like target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" would help with that.
December 8th, 2022 at 9:03 AM ^
It's already really hard to click on a paper clip and paste the link in the pop-up box. You want to add more complexity?
December 8th, 2022 at 11:43 AM ^
Yeah, it would be a shame if people who either have attended and/or are fans of one of the world's highest ranked institutions of higher learning would have to be mindful of clicking a button or type a few extra characters.
December 8th, 2022 at 12:31 PM ^
LOL. Fair point. I meant that as part of the programming on the site (e.g., the paperclip should do this). One of the slightly annoying things here is that you have to right click/long press and instruct opening a link in a new tab or else you lose your spot in the thread when you have to navigate back after the links open in the same tab (navigating you away from MGo).
December 8th, 2022 at 2:37 AM ^
I think Ronnie Bell, JD Johnson, and Grant Fucking Newsome would give a different review of UM's medical staff.
December 8th, 2022 at 4:07 AM ^
I disagree with the OP highlights being on the Drs
The most interesting part of the video is the discussion on NIL and the Portal. And they are both completely f’ckd up. The interviewers mentioned they wondered who would be the best expert on NIL and the Portal. And the answer is a transferring quarterback.
NIL and Portal (we are only in year 2) are completely screwing up college football and fair competition based on Cade’s descriptions.
December 8th, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
I agree.
But hearing them saying the best expert is a college kid is stretching it. Cade said he just went back to who recruited him to find out what was going on. He seemed to be amazed that those coaches were at other schools now--wow, what a surprise.
He is also a grad transfer, and that system has been in place for a while. He doesn't know anything else.
Wait until the tax bill comes due on these payments from collectives.
The unrestricted free agent aspect of this new system is insane. Dangle the money in front of the stars and haul them in. Meanwhile, most of the underclassman that enter the portal don't get picked up by anyone.
December 8th, 2022 at 1:35 PM ^
You need to watch the video to understand why they said that
December 8th, 2022 at 4:55 PM ^
Don't get picked up by anyone AND lose their scholarships. So sad!
December 7th, 2022 at 9:21 PM ^
How do you not know your knees hurt?
December 7th, 2022 at 9:48 PM ^
Isn't that surprising?
December 7th, 2022 at 9:52 PM ^
Is it a shock that a competitive, high-level athlete engaged in a very intense competition for his starting spot may play through a certain level of pain and discomfort in order to not lose his spot?
It's cliche to say but we expect athletes to give 110% and history is littered with guys who just gritted through it because they've been taught that's the expected outlook. I'm sure he knew his knee was "hurt" but there's always a distinction between "hurt" and "injured" and athletes are expected to straddle that line.
December 8th, 2022 at 4:02 AM ^
This is a big part of it for his championship run. He’s not going to want to complain and give up his job and historic season. Players are often hurting one way or the other by the end of the season.
If the MRI came back negative he’s not going to worry about it.
I had a torn hip labrum and the first two MRIs were negative. But I knew it hurt and finally went to one of the top hip specialists in the country to find the tear.
December 8th, 2022 at 8:47 AM ^
Yep. My son let go of a 92mph fastball and his elbow popped. Shitty MRI place in Indiana showed no tear. Went to beacon orthopedics in Cincinnati with the video, Kremchek sent us down to his machine and instantly diagnosed needing Tommy John.
December 8th, 2022 at 11:55 AM ^
If I remember correctly in the later part of the season last year he was wearing a big bulky brace on his knee. UM was having an amazing season and he was the starting qb. I'm sure it's much easier to suck it up and play/practice through injury when you're the starting qb.
He's no longer the starting qb. He knows he's going to transfer so get your body right and be ready to go for next season.
December 8th, 2022 at 8:53 AM ^
Is this a serious question?? Of course they know their knees hurt, every joint in their body hurts all season long. You go to doctors to scan it and tell you if you can play through it without taking more damage.
December 8th, 2022 at 9:07 AM ^
I'm guessing that his feelings got hurt. When someone leaves a job because they got passed over for a promotion, a lot of that decision revolves around the feeling of rejection.
December 8th, 2022 at 2:14 PM ^
Cortisol shots and other pain killers swallowed like candy. Pain is a way of life in FB. The mind is capable of incredible blocking.
December 7th, 2022 at 9:21 PM ^
Sadly, this isn’t going to be the only time we hear this. Erik All went to Florida for his surgery. there may be a confidence issue with some players and the medical staff and this isn’t a new issue either. This isn’t my opinion, it has been a reoccurring issue
December 7th, 2022 at 9:26 PM ^
medical opinions are just that--opinions. When it comes to spine surgical decisions there can be an even greater discrepancy when it comes to surgical opinions.
I've always had a certain level of discomfort with team doctors just because there is a bit of a conflict of interest. On the other hand, it also presents an avenue for someone who is disgruntled to seek an "out"
December 7th, 2022 at 9:37 PM ^
Spine surgery should generally be a last resort. They have one of the highest failure rates of any surgery. Cut 1st Drs are something I would recommend anyone avoid.
I don’t know All’s circumstances but it’s certainly possible his comeback from back surgery is not without a decent amount of risk.
December 8th, 2022 at 7:59 AM ^
Agree 100%
Furthermore, it is not at all unusual to have a group of doctors have differing opinions about a matter. Not everything in medicine is without doubt.
Doctors frequently have to weigh risks vs. rewards of any treatment plan, whether it be medicinal or interventional. Opinions can differ.
I don't know All's particular medical condition, as I also don't know the circumstances of others on the team who preceded him (ie. St. Juste). It may be that the Michigan athletic physicians are more conservative and risk averse than others, and the Michigan Board of Regents may also be more wary of athletic participation risk and potential litigation.
December 8th, 2022 at 10:25 AM ^
I think your last sentence is an important factor; if All suffered another back injury after being medically cleared by Michigan's medical staff it could subject them (and the university) to medical liability claims, especially if it resulted in significant lost future income. When you also consider the heightened emphasis on avoiding head and spinal injuries in modern collegiate and professional football, it wouldn't surprise me if the Michigan medical staff wasn't willing to clear him.
December 8th, 2022 at 1:05 PM ^
Also,
One of the last big major media events that involved Michigan included an injured player and student protests that resulted in the firing of the AD and Head Coach.
So, like, this is a real thing Michigan is very much concerned about.
December 8th, 2022 at 1:45 PM ^
I see your point and it makes a lot of sense. The concern I have though is you have other top-tier universities willing to accept these players and allow them to play. Minnesota accepted St. Juste, who now plays in the NFL, and it appears All will be accepted by Iowa or ND. Are those schools any less adverse to liability?
If UM refuses to clear players but other major programs accept them, how long before it becomes evident that maybe UM is getting it wrong?
December 7th, 2022 at 9:45 PM ^
My neurologist wife had this to say on Cade:
re: torn patella/2021 injury was “missed”
first, a radiologist trained in knee injuries would have had to miss it. Then an orthopedic doc trained in football injuries would have to miss it. Most likely, there was multidisciplinary meeting where multiple orthopedic docs gave opinions and they would all have had to miss it.
highly unlikely it was missed.
that said, many surgeons have huge egos and it’s very probable that surgeons other places would throw M under the bus similar to how chess masters neg each other. These young guys are emotional and likely filtering what these docs are telling them through a lot of selective biases.
December 7th, 2022 at 9:51 PM ^
Yeah, it's worth remembering that people are pretty bad about recalling what doctors tell them. And I don't mean that as a criticism. I'd advise anyone to have a family member or friend with present when possible when getting medical advice. The two of you can compare notes later.
December 7th, 2022 at 11:42 PM ^
Yes for sure. My favorite doctors over the years have always been the ones that will take the time to speak with you and then at the end succinctly summarize your ailment and the recommended path forward. Nowadays the doctor's notes are saved online and you can go back and read everything at your leisure. Technology to the rescue.
December 8th, 2022 at 8:12 AM ^
Not only this, but often times doctors don't always have the best filter for explaining things in lay-person's terms. When my step-father had open heart surgery, we had a registered nurse with decades of administrative and patient-care experience who acted almost like an "interpreter" with the surgeon. When he came out, I got the gist of it, but she was able to filter it into terms and contexts my mother and I could better understand.
Doctors say a lot of things, and not all of it makes sense to the average person with no medical training.
December 7th, 2022 at 9:55 PM ^
I'm a rep in the sports med business. Apparently the guy in LA is known to throw others under bus. In the world of professional athletes, it's super competitive amongst the sports docs as everyone is trying to get anointed as the next Dr. Andrews. There are MRI's that are read as tears that are either in a stage of healing or simply inflammation and often no surgery is actually the appropriate response. For another doc to express "disbelief" that other docs didn't recommend surgery smacks of self-aggrandization.
December 7th, 2022 at 10:02 PM ^
This x1000
December 7th, 2022 at 10:57 PM ^
Yup. Unfortunately there are a lot of patients out there who just really want a surgery performed. Unfortunately there are also surgeons who will operate on anyone and tell them exactly what they want to hear. There are no quick fixes.
December 8th, 2022 at 7:59 AM ^
Dr. Andrews did my wife’s knee surgery!
December 7th, 2022 at 10:10 PM ^
People have access to reports now and often don't have the background to interpret them. A patellar tendon can have chronic change--tendonosis--that can be interpreted on an MRI as a "tear"
These are not "torn-in-two tears" more longitudinal separations in the fibers. You see them in rotator cuffs all the time and they are quite different than a full thickness tear where the tendon is torn off the bone and requires repair. (Asymptomatic readers of this blog over the age of 40 almost certainly would have this if they got MRIs on their shoulder right now)
It would not be surprising to see these changes on Cade MRI and it would not be surprising for them not to be symptomatic or for a reasonable doctor to rehab them with non-operative treatment (at least initially)
Lastly, you'd be shocked by the number of physicians that build themselves up by tearing others down. They even will attempt to cover their own potential failure with things such as "We're going to do our best to fix this but this is the worst _____I've seen and if they hadn't done___ or if we could have done ____ back then..." You get the picture
December 7th, 2022 at 11:17 PM ^
Some of the worse biases and even petty jealousies are in the medical field.
December 8th, 2022 at 7:13 AM ^
you sure are smart for a moose doctor. do moose tear their meniscus a lot tripping in the swamps?
December 8th, 2022 at 7:34 AM ^
tripping over flying squirrels or nefarious Russian couples
December 8th, 2022 at 8:17 AM ^
you'd be shocked by the number of physicians that build themselves up by tearing others down.
Sounds a lot like certain football coaches during recruiting season.
December 8th, 2022 at 1:09 PM ^
"Lastly, you'd be shocked by the number of physicians that build themselves up by tearing others down"
Unless you've ever had a job, then you'll realize it's just business as usual basically everywhere.
December 8th, 2022 at 8:02 PM ^
Not just doctors. Every new worker that comes into our house tells us the last guy,I.e., electrician, plumber, etc., didn’t do it right. My wife and I just walk away and chuckle to ourselves.
December 8th, 2022 at 1:25 AM ^
This is 100% accurate. Also re: torn patella - This would also mean that Cade didn't display ANY functional limitations regarding a patellar tear. Also "torn patella" is a pretty vague term considering how Cade played the rest of that 2021 season.
MCL tear generally does not need reconstruction, and considering that this was most likely an MPFL tear, that often doesn't require reconstruction either.
My sense is the UM docs were following best evidence, though unsure if Cade was still dealing with a lot of pain when they suggested he was good to return to play.
December 8th, 2022 at 11:58 AM ^
Remember what the stoics said...that emotions are not to be trusted.
December 8th, 2022 at 12:41 PM ^
This right here.
He's the fucking starting QB at a P5 school. There's a whole team of people looking at his knee. They might have come to a different conclusion than another outside doctor, but it's ridiculous to think they "missed" something.
December 7th, 2022 at 9:58 PM ^
As an Orthopaedic surgeon who works in a not-for-profit role and has taken care of a number of D1 athletes, I think I can understand where the differing opinions lie…
I don’t want to presume what the motives of anyone involved in his care are, but anytime there are multiple providers involved, you will get different opinions; especially so when one the circumstances of an injury change.
It sounds like Cade got an opinion after his first injury that he could continue to play with a partially torn, patellar tendon, which is reasonable if his knee function was OK, If you were to have that fixed, you are committing him to a 6 to 12 month recovery which would preclude him from competing for a starting job and playing in the following year.
It sounds from the interview like a surgeon outside of the University of Michigan medical group disagreed with the initial medical evaluation.
It’s not uncommon that patients , especially high level athletes,(and their parents) will put more stock and more aggressive treatment recommendations to get them back on the field regardless of the risk. I’m not saying this is what happened in this case, but I’ve seen it before
December 8th, 2022 at 7:45 AM ^
If, as Cade suggests, they knew he tore his patellar but didn’t tell him and it led to him tearing his MCL, why does he not sue for med mal? I assume the M docs aren’t immune to that.
ultimately, Cade just sounds real salty and, frankly, hard to believe.
December 8th, 2022 at 10:16 AM ^
Doesn't it at least depend on the question of whether the team doctor is providing treatment as opposed to being paid by the university to provide medical opinions? The relationship changes the extent of the duty. Here's an article that touches on it.
There might be negligence, but the scope of the duty isn't totally clean-cut. Moreover, in Michigan, there's a 2-year statute of limitations and Cade would need to provide 6 months notice before filing the suit AND would have to have a doctor's report that says that malpractice was committed. It's one thing for some flippant physician to tell a patient that a mistake was previously made and quite another to put in writing and agree to testify that there was malpractice by the previous doctor.
https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1104&context=jslcp&httpsredir=1&referer=
December 8th, 2022 at 12:01 PM ^
Its not hard to believe he is salty. He essentially played perfectly from a team performance view... beat OSU, won Big Ten... it is unfortunate, but he got beat out. I backed him fully and didn't think he should be benched, until had a bad half/game. But it has been shown that JJ is better and more deserving... ballsy the way Harbaugh did it, but it was shown it was the correct call. Small chance we can win the national title vs Ga with Cade, as it was shown last season.