13 points, 9 assists, 2 rebounds & only 1 TO against the excellent defense of the Pacers
Tennessee is not recruiting well just because they got 18 dudes
As much as I love Trey and as much as I wanted the Pistons to pick him, after watching him in a few summer league games I thought maybe Dumars was right. You would have thought I would have known better.
Well, it's not like Dumars has been wrong thus far.
KCP and Burke have both been shooting poorly from the field, but KCP is quickly developing into an elite wing/guard defender, something the Pistons sorely need and Burke will never be.
Burke also missed the first 11 games this year, which would have been killer for the Pistons. He's had 3 nice games in a row, but so has Kentavious.
You also have to factor in Kentavious' defense doesn't show up on the stat sheet, and he's also the 5th option on the team, whereas Burke is asked to be the number 1 or 2 option.
The Pistons also didn't draft him because they were working on a trade to bring in Brandon Jennings, who has been top 5 in assists this year.
You can go back to the NBA draft thread and see me commenting, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" several times when they passed on Burke, but KCP was not a bad pick. Then when you factor in his value defensively, and that there aren't many solid 2s, compared to a million amazing point guards, plus the Jennings trade....it wasn't a bad pick by any means.
A lot of basketball fans forget that half the game and thus half your value as a player is on the defensive end.
You can defend the KCP pick in basketball terms. It wasn't the worst pick in the world in terms of helping the team. But in terms of giving the team a shot in the arm in terms of fan interest, it was a mistake. I was once a big Piston fan but have become totally apathetic in recent years. That would have changed if they'd drafted Burke. I would have watched him any chance I could. I would have considered buying tickets to go to games. That is not the case now. KCP doesn't move the needle for me. It's nothing against him - it's just not enough to make me care about the Pistons again. I know quite a few people who feel the same way.
I'm sorry, JM, but this is just a shit argument.
Winning brings back fans, not drafting Michigan or Michigan State players so the Pistons can run gimmicky fan night stuff like, "Hey! Look! Come see your favorite former Wolverines and Spartans in the NBA!"
Just win, baby. If you win, the fans will come back.
Drafting a player purely for the purpose of receiving a temporary boost in eyeballs is just pathetic. Plus, Burke was hurt for the first 11 games, so, "Oops, people don't care anymore!"
And I'm sorry, but if you claim to be a basketball fan, and a Pistons fan at that, and you can't get excited about this guy:
It's over for you. I'm sorry. Hit the road, Jack. Don't even come around here no more. He is the future, in case you haven't been paying attention.
who won NBA championship in his tenure and has essentially his hands tied due to the owner situation with Davidson death and his wife not wanting to do anything with the franchise.
He has made some bad moves, but he's not one of the worst GM in the league.
The Pistons were sold two years ago to Tom Gores. Dumars has had a free hand since then.
Tons of luck went into building that Championship team. Billups and Wallace were both available at the right time for the right price and both made huge jumps in production. Then they were able to steal Wallace in a late salary dump. Prince, Rip and Okur were nice pickups.
On the other side of the ledger we have Darko, the Rip extension, the Billups trade, Ben Gordon, Charlie V, dumping Afflalo for nothing, the Prince extension, Austin Daye, Brandon Knight, DJ White, Carlos Delfino, Rodney White, Mateen Cleves, Michael Curry, John Cuester, Lawrence Frank, etc, etc.
I like how you left out drafting Monroe and Drummond.
You could also spend several paragraphs detailing all of the great trades Joe D has made that have worked out in the Pistons' favor, but you've elected to gloss over that as "luck."
Funny how when you assume every positive thing a person has done is "lucky" and every negative thing they've done is, "the real them," you can make them look bad.
If Joe Dumars is a terrible GM, then like 90% of the GMs in the NBA are terrible.
when Joe made the decision to pass up on Trey. I tried convincing myself that the right move was made. Months later I'm admitting that it isn't cool to lie to yourself.
Why but I lmfao at your comment
Do you think you and Ontario Blue can get your avatars together for a pillow fight or something?
Is that wrong? Sorry.
Depends on what your personal seat donation is for that event. Put me down for the Victors level.
I don't watch the NBA at all. How's the guy the Pistons took instead of Burke doing anyway?
There have been several articles about how he is quickly developing into an elite defender. Like Burke he started out the year struggling with his shot, but he has been shooting extremely well his last few games.
He is basically doing everything that the Pistons have asked him to do.
Are Utah jazz games even on tv nationally much? I have yet to find one though living in Chicago I should probably expect that. Itd be great to see him play a few games.
Pope has been fine for the Pistons, and while I like Burke a great deal I'm not sure he'd be any better on this team than Jennings. I'm happy for Burke that he is having a good start to the year, but that doesn't mean Dumars screwed up not taking him.
I wondered where that lightning bolt came from when I was walking home yesterday. I apologize, and offer up one of my illegitimate children as sacrifice. They are gamey but high in God-pleasing fiber.
Wrote this in the last thread. KCP is playing very good defense these days and Pistons are being rewarded. Pistons just won their third in a row. KCP has the potential to be a much needed 3 and D guy for us. We won't know who is a better NBA player for years between KCP and Burke. I obviously am rooting for both of them.
12 shots to get 12 points. Trey needs to work on getting to the line. Although he's shooting a bit better, the efficiency numbers are taking a hit because of the lack of FT attempts.
He also had 9 assists against 1 turnover.
KCP does play pretty good D, but Im not sure he will ever become the "go-to" scorer the Pistons need and neither is Jennings. Trey has already shown an ability to be a much better leader, scorer and just as good of a passer as Jennings. Of course Jennings has a longer track record. Ive watched every Pistons and Jazz game (that Trey has played) and Ive watched THJ quite a bit. Michigan's backcourt of Trey and THJ is better than the Pistons current backcourt.
The Pistons don't need KCP to be a go to scorer. They need him to play good defense and knock down 3s. Something he is more than capable of doing. The defense is key. The Pistons have 0 good perimeter defenders outside of KCP.
They have Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe, Josh Smith, Brandon Jennings, and Rodney Stuckey for scoring. Scoring is not a problem for this team. They are dead last in the NBA this year in defensive effective field goal percentage.
Edit: Also, let's be frank, if KCP had missed the first 11 games like Burke, if he were putting up the same numbers as Burke, and the Pistons were 4-16, people would be saying, "Wow, what a bust! Horrible pick by Dumars! Should have drafted Burke."
Every elite team in the NBA needs perimeter player they can depend on in the 4th qtr when the game is close. That person for the Pistons is Rodney Stuckey...the 6th man. Do you think Stuckey can lead a team deep into the playoffs? Neither do I. The Stones suck at closing out games for that reason. Teams pack the paint and then Smith, Jennings, Stuckey, end up shooting bad contested perimeter shoots when shooting is not a strong suit for any of those guys.
Do I think Stuckey can lead the team deep into the playoffs? No.
Do I think if Burke were the point guard he would lead this deep into the playoffs? No.
Why? Because this team is not a 2nd round playoff team. I mean, maybe they are, but that's only by virtue of the fact that the East is atrocious.
Burke has also been shooting pretty poorly from the field. Right around the exact same percentage as Brandon Jennings and KCP.
As a result of not drafting Burke we were able to land both KCP and Jennings, which would not have been the case had we gotten Burke.
Also, as a side note...Stuckey has been good this year. He's been in the early conversation for 6th man of the year, so I'm not sure why saying he is a 6th man is an insult. He would be starting on a lot of teams, and had we drafted Burke he'd almost certainly be our starting 2 guard.
Edit: Also, also, why do you just get to assume Burke will be an elite perimeter player? Can I just assume for the sake of argument that both Jennings and KCP will turn into elite perimeter players thereby negating that statement? If so, they will both turn into elite perimeter players. Cool beans.
Also, also, also...playoff teams need elite perimeter defense, which KCP is proving he can provide but Burke probably cannot. He will probably never be more than an average defender due to his athletic limitations and size.
And 67% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Through 20 games Burke has shown he can't shoot, is not a good defender, and is injury prone, but I'm not willing to sell him down the river just yet.
Jennings has been solid this year. Top 5 in assists. He's by no means perfect. He's still working on improving his shot selection, which is something he's done if you've been paying attention and watching games.
Brandon's main problem is that he is bad at finishing around the rim. He also doesn't have a right hand. If he works on those two things (easily fixable) his fg% will improve dramatically.
People said Chauncey was a bust.He was a guy who had been floating around the league. Not saying the same thing will happen here, but it's possible. Jennings' problems are not a lack of skill. They are mental and style of play. They are fixable.
Stuckey doesn't lead the team. Andre Drummond is far and away the team's best player. Next is Greg Monroe. Then JSmoove. Those are the guys that will have to lead this team regardless of whether we drafted Burke or not.
The Pistons future is tied to Drummond and Moose.
Burke's shot selection has been questionable at times. He's been known to jack up some pretty long 3s with a ton of time still on the shot clock (the Brandon Jennings special). He's also not great finishing around the rim.
This team needs to make the playoffs this year or Joe Dumars is getting fired. Brandon Jennings and KCP give the Pistons a better chance of that than just having a rookie point guard in Burke who was injured for the first 11 games of the season.
I wish the Pistons have drafted Burke, but drafting KCP was not a bad decision.
Because people love Trey they are just assuming he's going to be as good in the NBA as he was at Michigan. He could be great. He could be a bust. So far he's been injured, hasn't shot well, and is averaging like 4 assists per game on the worst team in the NBA.
If anything, Pistons fans should be pissed they didn't draft Michael Carter-Williams. That dude has been tearing it up, and is probably the odds on favorite to win rookie of the year at this point.
except trey Burke showing that he's injury-prone. Breaking a finger in a random scrimmage or practice is not an indication of him being injury prone, it's just an unfortunately-timed accident
I think his point was that if you look at just 20 games, you could make ridiculous claims about why Trey Burke is not good and that it is too early to make any judgement on either player.
I like how you make fun of people who misuse statistics then do the exact same thing yourself:
"Through 20 games Burke has shown he can't shoot, is not a good defender, and is injury prone, but I'm not willing to sell him down the river just yet."
All three of these statements are incorrect or easily contestable.
1. "Through 20 games" -> He's played 8 games, not 20.
2. "Can't shoot" -> Burke has shot 40% on 100 field goals, 40 of which are 3FGA (and shooting it at 42%). His eFG% is 47%.
3. "Injury prone" -> Burke has had 1 injury and missed 12 games. Hardly enough to already call him injury prone.
Think a little more next time.
I like how you totally missed my point.
I was being facetious with my criticisms of Burke, much in the same way that a lot of people on the board have been unnecessarily harsh in their criticisms of KCP (Markovits was right on the money).
Also, we've been through 20 games. That's a fact. And I can most definitely hold missing those 11 games against Burke, because lord knows people on the board would have held missing the first 11 games against KCP had Burke been healthy all year.
San Antonio Spurs ring a bell for ya? Manu has been arguably their best player on the team and he came off the bench.
he should show flashes of being a great offensive perimeter player while being on a team where he is the fifth option? The four guys a head of him are all-stars or potential all-stars. The beauty about KCP is he pressures the ball and has some height and athleticism. I actually think Dumars made the right move here.
Your starting 5 if you drafted Burke is
Burke, Stuckey, Smith, Drummond and Monroe.
I personally don’t like having a 6’5 Stuckey (really about 6’3) being my tall guard or a starter.
The starting 5 with KCP drafted is
Jennings, KCP, Smith, Drummond, and Monroe with Stuckey finding a role as a versatile of the bench guy. That lineup has 3 extremely athletic defenders on it with excellent height and length. The only real defensive weaknesses are Monroe (which is a bit overblown) and Jennings, who is going to finish the year as one of the top assists guys in the NBA.
Also the eventual test to see if Burke reaches his potential is how his style translates to the NBA. I kept hearing draft analyst worry that Burke’s style and size put him at high risk of injury sense he creates so much contact. Over the next 3-5 years let’s see how Burke holds up. I hope he is a great pro, but I am pretty happy with KCP.
"Burk is never going to be a 50% shooter, but his shot selection is rarely in question where as a large percentage of Jennings shots are so bad that they are basically turnovers."
Yet somehow Burke barely has a better eFG% Jennings.
Jennings averages 5 more TO per 100 posessions - but he also averages almost 8 more assists per 100 posessions.
Watching Burke (I bought League Pass), I'm reminded of why the Pistons SHOULD HAVE drafted him. While he will never be an elite defender, he is a fantastic passer, has ice in his veins when it comes to making the clutch shot, and has been holding his own on defense. He still has a lot of work to do, but he is looking like the same guy who led us to the NC.
You can talk about "fitting pieces together," but this year of Michigan basketball shows just how much Trey's leadership brings to the table. Now THAT'S something that doesn't show up on the score sheet.
"and has been holding his own on defense."
Currently giving up 110.1 pts/100 posessions according to NBA Defensive Rating stats.
...about 6 points/100 posessions worse than Brandon Jennings, and one of the worst starting PG in the NBA on that stat.
I'm sorry but when you have the 8th pick, you don't look for a defensive guy who can hit some 3 pointers for you. You're basically describing Bruce Bowen, who went undrafted.
When you have the 8th pick, you better get someone who can do more than play defense. I'm glad Pope is doing something well. But geez, if you want an elite wing defender, the 8th pick of the first round isn't the place to go shopping for it.
I'm pretty sure had people known Bruce Bowen was going to be Bruce Bowen, he would have gotten drafted 8th or so in 1994.
The guy was the best perimeter defender in the NBA for a long time. Pretty sure the Pistons (and several other teams) have won a few championships with elite perimeter defenders that can knock down 3 pointers, who play extremely intelligent basketball...
The 6th pick that year was Sharone Wright.
The 7th pick was Lamond Murray.
The 8th pick was Brian Grant.
And the 9th pick was Eric Montross.
Hell, the last 10 #8 picks have been KCP, Terrence Ross, Brandon Knight, Al-Farouq Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Rudy Gay, Channing Frye, and Rafael Arujo. Based on that I'm pretty sure teams would kill for a Bruce Bowen type player with the 8th pick.
at 1st round are busts. Look at the past drafts, it's astonishing that it's been that bad. If you can get an elite shooter with elite defense, teams would take that every time at #8 overall. People wants superstar, but that's rare. Getting a Paul George this late in the draft is rare and you shouldn't expect that. The expectation is can he contribute to the team in a positive way. If yes, he'll be an useful player. Depending on the strength of the draft, if you have a top 3 pick, you should expect a superstar.
I still don't understand why Brandon Jennings gets ZERO appreciation... You guys realize with DRose and Rondo hurt, he's the 2nd best PG in the East right now behind John Wall. For all the talk of him not being a "true" PG, he's 5th in the league in assists 8.2 a game (17 & 11 in tonight's WIN). He looks like one now more than ever because this is his best supporting cast ever. He doesn't have to try to top 20 every game or put up the occasional 40-50 point night. Is he a great shooter? No, he sure isn't. But a lot of PGs weren't/aren't and have been more than productive (Kidd, Rondo, Rubio). Is he a great defender? Again, no... But he usually averages about 2 swipes a game and pulls of pretty athletic thieveries from time to time (From Bron in Heat win.), and again, there have been some pretty successful PGs that also were not great defenders (Nash, Parker)... People are already calling this current Pistons roster a failure when they currently sit as the 6 seed, and have a realistic shot at ending up as high as 3. Yes, I'm aware that's because Miami and Indiana are head and shoulders above the rest of the conference, but you have to start somewhere right? It seems to me after adding several new pieces and a new HC that they are just starting to figure out their best style of play, rotations and built some chemistry. They started 2-5 and have gone 7-5 since, also blowing a couple wins along the way (Portland, ATL, Mem, LAL). There's a lot of young talent that still have the opportunity to improve and develop along the way. Not just Drummond and KCP... But Monroe, Jennings and Josh Smith to an extent. Pistons fans of all people should be aware of the late bloomer. Chauncey Billups didn't prove himself worthy of the #3 overall pick until he got to Detroit. Rip wasn't Miller/Allenesque until he arrived in Motown. When in Orlando, I couldn't have told you the difference between a Ben Wallace or a Bo Outlaw. Even Sheed was somewhat of a disappointment early on in Portland. Give it time, Tyson Chandler was mentioned in the same breath as Eddie Curry at one time before he became an NBA Champion, All-Star, DPOY candidate and Olympic Gold Medalist.
He's not above kyrie Irving, and I'd take Teague, jrue Holliday, and a shitty deron Williams over him.
Indiana and Miami are the only teams in the east with winning records.
If anyone is interested, NBA.com actually does an excellent job of charting player stats. Trey's profile is here - http://stats.nba.com/playerProfile.html?PlayerID=203504
So far, he's averaging about 27 minutes per game, and in that time, 12.6 points, 3.3 rebounds and 4.1 assists per game. According to NBA.com, in his 8 games, he has accumulated 101 points, 26 rebounds and 33 assists. Not really a bad start to an NBA career.
Trey definitely looked good. Utah played out of their ass last night and the Pacers still won pretty comfortably. I am a Pacer fan forever, and I am loving this team, such good defense, deep bench, really good stars. Hopefully we can get to the finals this year. A San antonio vs Indiana finals would be a ratings nightmare, but it might be the best series in a while.
Dont know if it was noticed/mentioned, but did anyone take a look at Hardaway's last game? :)
When people talk about KCP, it's often "well he's a good defender" which is sort of like "but he's got a nice personality". You don't spend a lotto pick on a defender and spot up shooter.
What was and is intriguing about Burke is his intangibles. There are things that just don't show up when you're measuring a guy's size, strength, speed, etc. He doesn't have all the prototypical tools you'd want in a point, but he often found a way to do great things and be clutch when it mattered. And some of his early performances indicate he translates to the NBA and the "shortcomings" on the scouting report may not hold him back.
KCP is all right, I just don't think he has the potential to be special like Trey does.
"You don't spend a lotto pick on a defender and spot up shooter."
If you can get a good defender and spot up shooter at #8, you're ahead of the game.
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons 2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavalier
1999 Andre Miller, Utah – Cleveland Cavaliers
1998 Larry Hughes, Saint Louis – Philadelphia 76ers
1997 Adonal Foyle, Colgate – Golden State Warriors
1996 Kerry Kittles, Villanova – New Jersey Nets
1995 Shawn Respert, Michigan State – Portland Trail Blazers
1994 Brian Grant, Xavier – Sacramento Kings
1993 Vin Baker, Hartford – Milwaukee Bucks
1992 Todd Day, Arkansas – Milwaukee Bucks
1991 Mark Macon, Temple – Denver Nuggets
1990 Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount – L.A. Clippers
I think it's still a bit early to evaluate KCP's defensive ability yet. I've watched most Pistons games and while he's an effective one-on-one guy, he still makes a lot of rookie mistakes on both sides of the ball. With that being said, he certainly has the potential to develop into a defensive stopper. His jumper is as pure as any I've seen out of the draft in recent years; he's probably going to shoot around 40% from 3 his whole career. If the Pistons can come out of the draft with an above-average 3-and-D guy, they've definitely made a good pick.
I've also watched my fair share of Jazz games this year, and Trey Burke has made them a completely different team. With him out of the starting lineup, the Jazz started the season 1-12. With him in the lineup, they're 3-3, with a win over Houston and a close game against the Pacers. He's already a good pick-and-roll passer (surprise!), and looks more polished than some veterans. He's still a weak defender; opposing PGs constantly go at him and exploit his size and athletic disadvantages. He also sometimes makes rookie mistakes on the offensive end, though not to KCP's degree. But he's a good 3-point shooter, and I think his pick-and-roll abilities would make him a better long-term fit in the Pistons lineup than Jennings. That's not a knock on Jennings, who has also been an effective distributor this year, but BJ's not going to magically turn into a knockdown shooter any time soon. Jennings is not going to kick his inefficient shooting habits. We all also know that Burke's got intangibles up the wazoo.
KCP has the potential to be a good player, but I think Burke has the potential to be a great player. The combo of Burke + (insert dime-a-dozen SG) would be better long-term IMO than Jennings-KCP. A good SG is easier to find than a good PG, and I don't think KCP will be as good of a SG as Burke is a PG.
should have drafted. Great size, scoring ability and a good passer.
Comparing KCP to 8th picks in OTHER drafts is ridiculous. How about comparing him to guys picked AFTER him in his OWN DRAFT?
If the Pistons were going to grab KCP over those other guys, they must have thought he was going to be something special. Given that he was suppsoed to be an elite shooter, I have yet to see anything that indicates he is going to be antyhing but a decent rotation guy. Which is obviously much better than getting some guy who is a bust, but pretty disappointing when there was better talent avalable at that pick.
Uhhh...you were the one who brought up the whole "YOU CANT GET A BRUCE BOWEN TYPE WITH THE 8TH PICK! THAT'S A WASTED PICK! YOU GOTTA GET SUPERSTARZ!' and so I just calmly laid out how that is an incredibly ridiculous thing to say.
I want you to do yourself a favor. Look up the number 8 overall pick every year for the last 30 years and tell me how many franchise players have been selected in 30 years. How many stars. 30 years, back to the 1984 draft. Do it.
Also, since you've totally moved the goal post in what your original argument is, let's roll with that now. Comparing him to guys in his draft class is completely ridiculous considering they've only played 20 games up to this point. Comparing him to Burke is even more ridiculous becauseBurke hasn't even outplayed him, and as a matter of argument, the fact that Burke has missed half the season thus far makes him more of a "bust" to this point than KCP.
You haven't seen ANYTHING from KCP that tells you he's going to be a good shooter? Do you not watch Pistons games? Because the last 3 games he has shot over 50% from the field and over 40% from 3.
His shot was off early, but he has shown steady improvement and looks to be finding his rhythm offensively on what is a very difficult team to play with.
I mean your arguments are just embarrassing because you're allowing things of Trey that you're not allowing of KCP.
For example, I thought Burke was supposed to be an elite point guard? He's only averaging 4 assists per game! That's horrible for a point guard. That's not even half of what heavily criticized starting Pistons point guard Brandon Jennings gets per game.
Also, I thought he was supposed to be a really good scorer? 12 points per game on less than 40% shooting from the field? That's awful.
When you factor in that he's not a good defender it's even worse.
See how that works?
If you were really sincere in your argument at this point you'd be more upset that the Pistons didn't draft Michael Carter-Williams, who looks like the real deal and is probably a lock to win rookie of the year at this point, but you're not.
You're making a bunch of terrible, emotional, facetious, illogical arguments because; Trey Burke.