You are the coach now. "Fix" M football

Submitted by Mgoczar on

Just getting around to all threads from the weekend, Brian's surrender cobra take on podcast and national media pundits (hell even Joel Klatt is having doubts on Michigan)

I am no coach (but hey would love to hear from Magnus, coyote etc). We all love M football. Besides the overriding sentiment (possibly factual) that LT is the reason we are struggling - mind you I am not sold that an even adequate LT just gives us auto wins - if you are the coach how would you go about "fixing" M football (let's not talk about recruiting here, I'm talking more tactical here)

Genesis of the post is the turnaround pen state did MIDSEASON after getting destroyed by Michigan. Their Oline ducked and yet they became better. Did they coach jump balls? Changed scheme to something unique ?? 

Thoughts?

Heywood_Jablome

September 4th, 2018 at 11:51 PM ^

Only way to hide o-line issues is to run a spread with a mobile QB. It's too late for that now.

Defense will have to keep UM in games.  And that's a heavy lift when the offense can't sustain drives.

OccaMsrazr

September 5th, 2018 at 12:12 AM ^

I was watching Michigan Podcast, and Dannie Rogers inferred that Fisch/Drevno used to call most of the plays in 2015/2016 until Harbaugh took over in 2017/18. 

Well, we can see what's wrong with this picture now can't we. 

Harbaugh needs to fucking let go of the offense and be a head coach. 

Go hire a Matt Canada and give him the reigns or bring back Jedd Fisch if you insist on running a pro-style offense. 

chunkums

September 5th, 2018 at 12:18 AM ^

Was Fisch really that beloved when he was here? I don't recall that at all. He had redshirt upperclassmen blocking for upperclassmen who were throwing to redshirt upperclassmen and people still bitched when the team struggled against good defenses. I'd be interested to see if Fisch would do any better with the nonexistent o-line blocking for a quarterback throwing to freshmen and sophomores. 

WichitanWolverine

September 5th, 2018 at 6:35 AM ^

If Jim Harbaugh is just here to be a CEO-type coach, then I think we need someone else. I think of the top college coaches as much more than just CEOs and think we need more than that to be competitive. Not to mention the fact that coordinator turnover is pretty high if they are successful. 

I did think of Jim Harbaugh as a quarterback/offensive guru when he was hired. But I’m definitely scratching my head these days. 

 

Space Coyote

September 5th, 2018 at 8:35 AM ^

This seems like a pretty tired take now that Michigan ran a majority spread formations with a pretty mobile QB and still got whipped on.

Spread helps cover pass protection issues in some ways, it also limits the ways you can protect the QB, and defenses know this. If you don't have an OT that can block 1-on-1 and you're trotting out in spread, well, good luck with 5 man protection schemes.

funkifyfl

September 5th, 2018 at 10:10 AM ^

That makes a lot of sense. My initial response would've been more chipping and help, namely by the TEs and RBs. I've read some things indicating that the RBs were tasked with helping a bit, but didn't do a great job. I don't have the ability to rewatch the game (not sure I would anyway), but were the TEs also assigned to chip the DEs? Was it often enough? If yes, was it a matter of execution?

Space Coyote

September 5th, 2018 at 10:28 AM ^

Based on what I saw:

Quick concepts: slide protection with RB blocking backside.

Play action/RPO: RB away from concept

Deep drops: Big-on-big blocking, RB reading LB, if LB blitzes, he picks up, if he drops, RB chips/releases.

That was pretty consistent. They had at least one instance of a TE taking backside in a slide protection scheme that resulted in the TE getting beat for a sack. Don't recall off hand if ball needed to be out quicker, difficult situation for a TE to be in, but was a pretty poor performance in that instance either way.

Mongo

September 5th, 2018 at 11:55 AM ^

Just because over half the plays vs. ND were out of the shotgun doesn't make it a "spread" offense.  This Pep Hamilton passing game is still predominately a pro style base West Coast offense requiring time for 3 reads from the pocket post-snap to find success.  Listen to the Oliver Martin interview for description of the WR assignments - classic nomenclature (X, Z, F receivers) used in pro style assignments under a West Coast type passing attack.

True spread is a completely different offensive philosophy - no multiple reads required from the pocket.  All reads are pre-snap and called from the sidelines once the OC sees the defensive personnel and scheme.  Pep Hamilton is not running a spread passing attack.  Just think of Oregon with all of those funky signs used by the coaches to call the offensive alignments and reads pre-snap.  We huddle up and call a pro-style set of WR assignments with the QB required to read the coverage during the play execution.

When the QB goes under center we add the FB (remove a WR) and run power plays mixed with play action.  That is the Harbaugh base offense (which by the way was successful at ND).  The pro-style shotgun is an attempt to lessen the impact of issues with our pass pro, however, just watch the 3 sacks / INT / Fumble ... Shea was attempting to cover those reads but just did not have the time necessary to get through the required progressions. 

Version 2018 is the same basic UM offensive approach as last year, but with more sets out of the shotgun.  I am hoping we add some RPO as the base stuff is just too predictable and our OL is not likely to get good enough for elite execution of pro style sets even if we run it out of the shotgun.

Space Coyote

September 5th, 2018 at 1:25 PM ^

You're conflating a lot of things with "Spread". "Spread" is a set of formations that spread the width of the field. It is not an offensive philosophy. It is not hurry-up no huddle, it is not signs, it is not simple reads. That is akin to saying that a west coast offense is the same as I-formation. Run and Gun, Air Raid, Power Spread, Read Option, West Coast Offense, Air Coryell, etc., etc. and all the hybrid and off-shoot schemes in between.

I'm not sure there was a single shotgun run play that wasn't an RPO against ND. All those "Now" screens were RPOs. All the roll out concepts and quick pass concepts were "movement key" reads, the same as what you are professing for "spread". Some offenses, even with a deep passing concept, will simplify with a single movement key. This comes with its own limitations. Most offensive schemes, at some point, require at least two reads (safety, then movement key). The problems Michigan had on Saturday rarely were associated with Patterson going through multiple reads. The INT was immediate upfield pressure, it wasn't because Patterson was reading the defense anymore than he would have had to had he had a single movement key. Same with the strip sack. Those things are false. Does Michigan run some simplified pro-style pass concepts? Yes. But for the most part that limit those, and limited them more last Saturday.

JVteam

September 4th, 2018 at 11:51 PM ^

Clearly fire Harbaugh.  Get boosters to pay the 15 million dollar fee.  Put the word out that we will pay for the highest paid coach in town.  Raise tuition.  Ask for donations and forgiveness.   We screwed up hiring a man who never won a championship.  He is UM HIV.

RockinLoud

September 5th, 2018 at 10:26 AM ^

The guy who is currently 11-14 in his career at ISU? You think the booster/big money donors, former players, et al would be cool with firing Harbaugh and going in on an unproven MAC coach who has one winning season at a P5 school? If you think that then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you!

Now, if 2-3 seasons down the road Harbaugh is still struggling to sniff the CCG and Campbell has a couple double digit win seasons and is considered by the college football world to be the best up and coming young coach, then maybe. Even at then, I highly doubt the AD would be able to get enough of the needed people on his side to make such a change. BUT.... maybe.

Frank Chuck

September 4th, 2018 at 11:54 PM ^

I hire an innovative coach who runs an aggressive, creative college offense that squeezes every ounce of talent out of our players - heralded or not.

A truly great coach/coordinator adapts to his players and gets the most out of them.

Compare Baker Mayfield's Texas Tech stats to his Oklahoma stats.

Compare Kyler Murray's Texas A&M stats to his Oklahoma stats.

What does Occam's Razor say?

It tells me Oklahoma's offensive system has a way of transforming and elevating misutilized players into stars who would have otherwise been relegated to JAG (just another guy) status and, therefore, been forgotten.

I can't for the life of me remember when Michigan was last innovative in offense? The 1920s? Because we had Benny Friedman and he could <gasp> throw the pigskin forward?

Harbaugh must make a change on offense if Michigan finishes this season 9-4, 8-5, or worse. As far as I can tell, there's no "collaborative playcalling" on defense. Don Brown is undoubtedly in charge despite having a former NFL and college DC (re: Greg Mattison) as one of his assistants.

I recall TCU's Gary Patterson hiring away Sonny Cumbie from Texas Tech after the 2013 season which marked a clear philosophical shift from the pro-style offense to the air raid offense.

No coach or player is bigger than the team/program, right?

I'm willing to give Harbaugh this entire season to prove he can win his way on offense. If he does not demonstrate tangible improvement in the win column against a fierce schedule, then he must relinquish control of the offense and recruit the best available coach - young or old - to run the unit. I realize that Lincoln Riley-esque geniuses don't grow on trees but I'm sure there are young, talented, innovative coaches who would crawl over miles of broken glass to coach at Michigan. They merely need the opportunity to prove themselves.

 

Frank Chuck

September 5th, 2018 at 12:00 AM ^

Who was the last Michigan QB to throw for 3,000+ passing yards and 30+ TDs in the same season?

Hint: You'll be surprised and quite disappointed. The list is...well...I'll let you find out for yourself.

FYI: 3,000+ passing yards / 30+ TDs in the same season are pedestrian numbers by today's standards considering USC, OU, and Big 12 QBs do that plus waaaaay more on the regular now.

But is that surprising given that Michigan stalwarts regarded the spread offense as "communist football" in the 2000s? They were like the dinosaurs of the 80s who regarded Bill Walsh's new WCO as "finesse" and weak. In other words, they were wrong.

Frank Chuck

September 5th, 2018 at 12:07 AM ^

You don't think the UM fanbase wants an offense like Oklahoma's that combines spread with power?

FYI: In his most pass-happy year (sophmore year), Baker Mayfield averaged 30 passing attempts per game.

Do the math.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/baker-mayfield-1.html

The "60 pass attempts per game" is a myth with regards to OU's offense. Yes, some pass-happy spread offenses throw 40 or even 50 times a game.

I'm talking about running a hybridized power spread with an emphasis on aggressive, balanced, creative playcalling.

Btw, you didn't answer my question so I'll ask it again: tell me the number (and names) of Michigan QBs that have thrown for 3,000+ passing yards and 30+ passing TDs in the same season.

FYI #2: Mayfield threw for 4,600+ yards and 43 passing TDs in addition to rushing for 300+ yard and 5 rushing TDs.

Frank Chuck

September 5th, 2018 at 12:15 AM ^

You have to be a fucking (concern) troll if you post garbage like this. Thanks for exposing yourself.

Michigan fans want to win. We're tired of fucking losing. We want to win championships. Plural.

When Alabama (arguably the most staunchly tradition heavy of all schools) adapts to the spread (and recruits dual-threat QBs) because Saban sees its overwhelming advantages (after getting repeatedly beat by power spread passing teams), then you know times are changing.

I mean...just a few years ago...outsiders were wondering it the Alabama fanbase (which has many closet racists) would accept a black kid (Blake Sims) as its starting QB. Fast-forward a few years and they didn't have a problem with a true freshman Jalen Hurts nearly leading them to a National Championship or a Polynesian QB guiding the team to victory.

Frank Chuck

September 5th, 2018 at 2:33 AM ^

Uh, wut?

Ohio State's 2013 and 14 offense rewrote Big Ten record books and lit up Alabama and Oregon.

2014 OSU:
- overcame a 21-6 deficit to Alabama and beat Saban's semi-pro team with a 3rd string QB (partially because OSU was also a similarly loaded semi-pro team).
- crushed Oregon by 3+ TDs despite a -3 turnover differential. When was the last time a team lost the turnover margin by 3 and still embarrassed an opponent?

2016 OSU (which had an anemic offense compared to the 2013 and 2014 OSU offenses) embarrassed Oklahoma in Norman.

Rich Rod was a scrub. He didn't emphasize defense and he didn't add power to his spread. The spread offense is now far more varied and complex than the stuff he ran at Michigan. The game evolves. Don't think so? Look at how many spread teams are now in the SEC.

Again, if you read my post you would see that I'm clearly advocating for a hybridized power spread (which is what Oklahoma, Clemson, and Ohio State all run).

Remember when Saban wanted to slow down the game in the name of player safety which was really a ruse to slow down the spread teams that were exposing his defenses? Yeah, about that...even Alabama now runs up-tempo power spread plays.

We hired the wrong spread coach and he turned out to be the human death penalty.

Hire the right one and things go much better.