Semi-OT: ESPN long-form piece on Joe Milton
Mostly about his time at Tennessee, but I couldn't help but search for tidbits about his time at Michigan. This stood out:
It wasn't just the one play and the injury that had him rattled. It was the whole damned thing: two years riding the bench at Michigan before finally getting his shot, only to then lose the starting job to Cade McNamara, prompting his decision to transfer to Tennessee. What went unreported at the time was that Milton broke his thumb in the second game of the 2020 season against Michigan State -- a thought that haunted him going into Week 2 against Pitt a year later.
At Michigan, Milton said he thought he was better than he really was. Sure, he had that big arm -- capable of firing passes so hard they'd rip apart the seams of receivers' gloves -- but he was complacent and immature. Dooley put it another way: Milton was playing quarterback rather than living the position by putting in extra hours studying the film and understanding the bigger picture. "He wishes he could have handled some things differently," Dooley said.
Bolded for emphasis. Basically, he came in, thought he was a big shot and would be handed the position, but things didn't work out. I can relate to this as I was the guy in high school who succeeded academically with only putting in a moderate amount of work. I got to Michigan and got by my first semester, but then did horribly the second b/c I got that much more complacent.
Took a little while to really figure it out, and it looks like it finally clicked for Milton at Tennessee.
Otherwise, it's a nice feel-good story about where he is now and I wish him success (unless he plays Michigan in the CFP).
September 13th, 2023 at 1:36 PM ^
Seems humbled. Refreshing.
September 13th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
His maturity is like a Junior Mint...very refreshing!
September 13th, 2023 at 1:45 PM ^
We forget sometimes that these kids are, well, kids. Think back to when you were 18 and how much you had matured just by the time you hit 22 or 23. At 18 I didn't think I'd make it to 30. At 23, I was pretty sure I was going to be around until like 45 or something else ancient...
September 14th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
I wasn't as mature as some of Michigan's players seem when I was in my 30s. Most of Michigan's players seem to be that way. Smart upper middle class kids who have been working hard for years already with a goal in mind.
Some of you actual Michigan alums probably empathize, as it took hard work at a young age to get into Michigan. For those of us whose major goal was to have a HS degree in hand and anywhere other than home to live when we turned 18 their singular focus on adult success is almost unnerving.
September 14th, 2023 at 3:46 PM ^
"Smart upper middle class kids," huh? First, most aren't upper middle class. Second, upper middle class doesn't necessarily equate to smart.
September 14th, 2023 at 3:51 PM ^
Johnny manziel enters chat
September 13th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
Anyone that admits to handling their business in a way that maybe isn't perfect can't be all bad. The simple fact that he realized he didn't really do the work, and has (apparently) nothing bad to say, makes me wish him well.
Good luck, Joe!
September 13th, 2023 at 1:58 PM ^
I'm pretty sure Richard Speck, Ted Bundy, and Charlie Manson all admitted to making a variety of mistakes. So, um...
September 13th, 2023 at 3:07 PM ^
well, maybe that’s why they weren’t ALL bad
just 99.999% bad
September 13th, 2023 at 11:17 PM ^
Even Adolf Hitler wasn't ALL bad; I mean, he is the guy who finally managed to kill Hitler.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:26 PM ^
Avatar checks out...
September 13th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
VERY OT.
September 13th, 2023 at 1:47 PM ^
That self-reflection is awesome. Can't help but root for him. Except against us, of course :)
September 13th, 2023 at 1:53 PM ^
Props to him. I'm still a fan. Good luck to him this year.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:59 PM ^
Especially on 10/21 & 11/18.
Go Vols🏈
September 13th, 2023 at 2:01 PM ^
He may have been complacent at some point, but I remember hearing (here?) about how his leadership in 2020 earned him the QB1 in A2 - which led to McCaffrey transferring. Anyway, good luck to the lad.
September 13th, 2023 at 2:03 PM ^
Looks like I have a team to pull for this season in the SEC. I am happy for him and hope it works out.
September 13th, 2023 at 2:39 PM ^
Tennessee?
No thanks.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:22 PM ^
I still can't forgive them for the shit Fulmer pulled to keep Michigan from winning the Coaches Poll after the 1997 season.
September 13th, 2023 at 4:01 PM ^
Fulmer is a total douchebag 🖕🖕🖕
September 13th, 2023 at 5:37 PM ^
You will never convince me that Fulmer didn't throw the Orange Bowl against Nebraska on January 2nd.
September 14th, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
Manning had an injury that restricted him from throwing deep. This allowed Nebraska to load up and cover all the short passes. No contest!
September 13th, 2023 at 10:02 PM ^
Equally, the bullshit outcry on Woodson winning the Heisman over Manning??
NO THANK YOU!
September 13th, 2023 at 2:05 PM ^
If I could ask Jim Harbaugh one question and be guaranteed an honest and full answer, it would be “what really happened here?”
You’ll never convince me that there was anything approaching a true QB “battle” heading into the 2020 season. Dylan McCaffrey looked legit GOOD in very limited occasions in 2019. Usually, he’d come in, the offense would score, and then he’d be back on the bench while Milton played the rest of the game.
For all the world, it looked like Harbaugh was trying to get Milton live-fire practice, and I supported that! But it didn’t look like Milton in 2019 had command of the offense.
I can understand why Milton thought the job would just be handed to him: IT LOOKED (to me…) LIKE THE JOB WAS JUST BEING HANDED TO HIM.
And the way Cade played when Milton was finally, mercifully, benched…again, you’ll never convince me that Milton beat Dylan and Cade in any kind of true competition.
I’m kinda fascinated by the roster failures in those years, because for all the world it looked like a defensive genius (Don Brown) forgot that the defensive tackle position existed, and that Jim Harbaugh forgot how to manage the QB position.
It could be a case study. Two years of Shea Patterson was supposed to buy us the time to recruit and develop McCaffrey, Milton, and McNamara, to the point that every single year we’d have an experienced starter with a high-ceiling guy pushing from behind. Instead, we got a grand total of zero starts out of McCaffrey, and 4 starts out of Milton, 3 of which were utter disasters, and Cade was pressed into duty a year early.
I’m honestly happy that Milton transferred. Not only did it seem to unlock his development, but I’d bet ANYTHING that if he had stayed, Harbaugh would have started him in 2021 Game 1. And Game 2. And Game 3.
September 13th, 2023 at 2:21 PM ^
I hear you but at the same time Joe Milton is starting for Tennesee and Cade is starting for Iowa. Those aren't recruiting misses or poor talent management. Milton was always a raw project from day one with all the arm strength and none of the QB skills. He looks like he'll pan out around the time you would have expected him to as a senior or 5th year guy. Cade is a game manager type but a competent QB you could scheme and offense around who ....beat OSU and won us a B1G championship before getting his job swiped by what may be the best Michigan QB in a generation.
Shea was talented but didnt take things seriously enough and Dylan was...well mostly a miss i think given his long term trajectory.
That's not a bad stretch run of QB talent identified by the coaches, it just didn't sequence out well in a way that felt good from 2018-2020, and it felt hopeless as that 2020 season clunked to a close. Despite the fact that Dan Vilari would have beaten OSU if we'd played them.
September 13th, 2023 at 2:37 PM ^
I think we’re saying very similar things. I wasn’t saying that Milton IS bad. But he definitely wasn’t ready when we played him. And I don’t think you can call Dylan McCaffrey a bad scout on our part: nobody knows how good he would have been if he had stayed here. Just like we don’t know if Milton would have started working hard if he had stayed.
We don’t “own” Milton’s success any more than we “own” McCaffrey’s lack of success. I’m just saying that Harbaugh’s roster management made a ton of sense when he got Shea here…and then made absolutely no sense in 2020, unless there is some major factor which has never been mentioned anywhere. I have my theories, but I have no proof.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:08 PM ^
I'll reserve judgement until he plays some tough competition and has a high completion percentage. He has the tools but I was never convinced he would be accurate.
I remember Devin Gardner saying he had worked with Milton one summer and he was much more accurate but it never showed on the field at Michigan.
September 14th, 2023 at 4:15 AM ^
Did you not see the Orange Bowl against 11-2 Clemson? LOL
70% completion, 3 tds, 250 yards and....
Orange Bowl MVP.
You can stop hating now. And moving the bar.
September 14th, 2023 at 4:25 AM ^
One game does not a career make.
Denard had a similar problem at Michigan. His HS completion percentage was in the '40's just like Milton, and while he had certain games where he completed passes at a high rate at Michigan, overall accuracy was a problem. Milton has had a tendency to have problems with short and intermediate range passes because he throws too hard.
Waiting to see how Milton does over a season is a very realistic thing to do and has nothing to do with hating. Not sure why you would make that remark.
September 14th, 2023 at 4:21 AM ^
You all keep running past the fact that he was INJURED. It's really simple when you understand that. In the Minnesota game, pre- injury, he was a stud, he looked like....how he looks now.
I don't see where Harbaughs management of qbs have EVER made sense. Except for Ruddock and finally booting Cade for JJ, he's gotten it wrong at every turn.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:02 PM ^
I think McCaffrey's brief glimpses of success as a backup tricked us all into thinking he was better than he was - he went to an FCS school and had a profoundly mediocre career there as well. So yeah, Milton at least had an arm and coaches love guys with potential like that. Now, I question more if Milton really beat out McNamara or if he got labeled the backup due to his more limited physical attributes. And I think McNamara was ready - he looked fine against Rutgers and even PSU before getting hurt; play him all year and they probably beat MSU and and who knows what happens against IU and Wisconsin (my guess is they lose those games but maybe not as terribly).
The fact he went to Tennessee and won the starting spot over Hooker, in hindsight, also feels questionable given how well Hooker played and how mediocre Milton looked in that spot beforehand - his first game he was 11/23 for 139 yards against Bowling Green (a terrible MAC team) and then looked lost against a Pitt team before Hooker took over. So again, was a guy who probably got the nod because of his potential more than on-field performance.
Again, I wish the guy luck but it always felt like Milton got the benefit of the doubt because of his raw power and ability and not because his on-field performance matched them.
September 13th, 2023 at 5:49 PM ^
The cade-Milton dynamic is interesting and double standard is interesting. Joe wins a spot and it's not based on merit on here. Both of these coaches put their jobs on the line to pander to Joe? God forbid Joe actually earning a job. I guess it couldn't have been because Milton just had better camps. Joe played relatively well against IU and decent against msu. IU was the real B1G champ in 2020. Lombardi and his receivers played out of their minds (with some help from some friendly flags) against us in 2020 as well. The Haskins jump pass that game was probably the biggest factor in the L along with running on 1st and 2nd down and dealing with 3rd and longs all game.
Yes, he was 11/23 for 139 against BGSU two years ago. Our lord and savior cade was 7-15 for 44 yards 9 days after Joe had the performance you referenced.
I personally think that going 14/25 for 180 yards with 1 td and 1 int against Hawaii, UConn, and Colorado state is mediocre. 13/24 for 119 without the screen pass behind the line of scrimmage to roman.
People knocked his accuracy. He's completed over 65% of his passes since leaving here.
People knocked his ability to hit the deep ball. Well, it looked pretty good last year.
He's done everything right since leaving Ann Arbor. I think he's flat out better than cade and it will continue to bear out. The difference is that he didn't have the best line in the country and second best defense in the country for support.
September 13th, 2023 at 8:58 PM ^
I don't think they pandered to Milton as much as they bought into his potential over McNamara. That happens all the time - you look at one guy who's got a higher floor and a lower ceiling and the other guy with a lower floor but a much higher ceiling and you go for the latter. Cade was a good QB coming out of HS but he was limited somewhat physically, while Milton was all raw material and vibes.
Milton played "relatively well" against IU in the sense that he had a high-volume game - 344 yards, 10.1 ypa. 3 TDs along with 2 picks. His throws were all over the place, sometimes great and sometimes awful. He wasn't the reason they lost but he also wasn't some savior, and that continued a downward trend we saw all year. Minnesota was the high point and then it was a steady decline as, frankly, teams got tape on him and took away the stuff he liked and (perhaps) his injured thumb flared up. But it's also just as likely that the coaches wanted him to succeed and didn't see McNamara as a full-time starter type, which happens with coaches all the time.
Yes, he was 11/23 for 139 against BGSU two years ago. Our lord and savior cade was 7-15 for 44 yards 9 days after Joe had the performance you referenced.
Oh man, you got me there. Joe Milton's performance against a MAC team with the 96th-ranked defense is directly relatable to McNamara's performance against a P5 team's defense. I sure hope there wasn't a game against a MAC defense a mere 2 days after Milton's game that would show a different level of performance. And yep, I'm sure he put up far superior numbers to McNamara's when he faced a P5 team.
Also, congrats on showing me a highlight of Milton throwing a bomb in a game his team was losing 63-31 (and yes, I know he came in after Hooker got hurt). But yes, hooray for throwing the ball really far in a blowout. Big ups to him. Surprised you didn't at least link to his game against Clemson, where he was legitimately good even though Clemson's defense had fallen off a bit at the end of the year. That's been his one legitimately great performance since he left UM, and hopefully he can follow it up.
As for completing 66% of his passes this year that's great; the fact he's at 6.8 ypa in those games this year is...less inspiring, especially since that's come against UVa and Austin Peay, two pretty bad teams. Busted-ass Cade McNamara last year averaged 7.2 ypa before getting hurt. Hendon Hooker averaged 9.5 last season in the same offense, and much higher if you focus on like-talent opponents like Akron, UT-Martin, and Ball St.
Listen man, if you want to argue Milton was good at Michigan have at it, and I do hope he'll have a good final year. But he shit-talked UM on the way out, and this is now the third time he's been given a shot at running a successful college offense. I hope he pulls it off but if I'm a bit skeptical and that's not because I secretly want to see him struggle.
September 13th, 2023 at 11:23 PM ^
The ironic part about his ypa this year is that they've had to settle for shorter routes because his receivers are dropping catchable balls.
This ' Joe talked shit' narrative is out of control. It doesn't line up with everything we know about him. But we have receipts about the savior. I'll just paste what I wrote earlier for you
It's not like he threw "the other guy" under the bus publicly or publicly saying that 'the other guy lost the michigan st game' . He was best friends with 'the other guy' and definitely didn't create discord in the qb room like michigan legend did
September 14th, 2023 at 9:26 AM ^
Okay, so the links you put there are some guy on an Iowa podcast saying "the other guy" and then Sam (in the same discussion at two different times) responding to what that guy said. Also, you have this weird issue with calling McNamara "savior" when all people are saying is that he played better than Milton once he got in, which is objectively true.
Also, Joe Milton saying about UM's offense compared to UT's that "they don't build robots here" sure sounds like fighting words, but I can see how'd you miss them because they were words spoken by him and not, you know, by someone else while he's somewhat in the vicinity.
Again, I wish the guy luck and glad to see he's matured, and I also wish McNamara luck. Neither of them are going to be the QB at UM again, and UM definitely has the best of the three under center now. But save me this faux outrage at someone besmirching Joe Milton's sterling reputation because I pointed out he hasn't been a super-consistent QB and that maybe the guy who was likely a big part in him transferring and then winning the first conference title in nearly 20 years maybe wasn't that bad.
September 14th, 2023 at 4:30 AM ^
Genuinely interested in how Cade can "shit talk UM on the way out", after, and on going, yet not draw the ire Milton gets on this board.
After being shit on for not being able to throw a football well with a thumb injury on his throwing hand, yall expect him to have nice things to say??LOL
While Cade who got every chance to disprove his lack of ability still finds a way to say dumb shit like having a good defense is new for him and gets a pass.
September 14th, 2023 at 9:15 AM ^
Cade McNamara has continued to draw ire for being on a podcast interview where the host kept blaming McCarthy for everything bad. He absolutely has drawn the ire. But this board seems to believe that Joe Milton was some unicorn who UM missed out on despite ample evidence that he's got a big arm and, at least thus far, somewhat questionable accuracy and mechanics.
Again, he hurt his thumb and that sucks, but Shea Patterson torqued his ribs, Cade McNamara apparently got injured against MSU in 2021 and played through it, etc. Guys get hurt in football and yet for some reason Joe Milton being mediocre at football is all because he hurt his thumb? Fine, then explain him completing about half his passes after winning the job at UT, when ostensibly he was healthy.
Also, I'd like to know when Cade said having a good defense is new to him. I know he's this awful human being who sucks at everything but it sure seems like that would have been a board topic at some point. If I missed it so be it but I swear half the things people say Cade McNamara spoke either don't exist or were said by someone else.
September 14th, 2023 at 7:02 PM ^
You must be on that ready rock. The only QB that gets more hate on here than Milton is o'korn. I can't tell you how many cade legend threads we had to deal with. There has only been maybe 1 non-positive comment on here about cade, whereas there have been multiple mentions of these unsubstantiated rumors about Joe talking down about the program on his way out. While cade did multiple times. cade legit withdrew from his academic program (before the uconn game) and removed himself from the program after he got benched. I cannot think of a worse "leader" that this program has had. He was a captain that quit once things didn't go his way, but it's a footnote here at best. There's a prominent double standard on here between him and Joe. Let's call it what it is.
September 16th, 2023 at 2:02 AM ^
I think all this talk about McCaffrey is just uninformed and really pretty sad. McCafferey was on his way to being a fantastic college and potentially professional QB until one single, despicable and disgusting hit by a Wisconsin player ended it all. He never played another down for Michigan and I'm convinced it ruined his career.
I read a quote after he left Michigan by a family friend that he needed to essentially go home to his family to heal and recover with the support of his family as there was speculation of more serious issues associated with severe head injuries and he was quite simply never the same after this disgusting hit.
If I am correct it was the second year in a row a dirty hit by a Wisconsin player ended the career of two players destined for big things at Michigan and possibly professionals. I think Michigan should use these two plays every time they play Wisconsin as a way to remind them what happened. I know I will never forget or forgive these to sickening plays by Wisconsin players.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:09 PM ^
McCafferty looked better than Shea at times. I go back to their first game against ND and Dylan came in and got us back into the game after Shea struggled and got hurt. I have a very hard time that Joe was just handed the job over Dylan. From what I remember, Dylan didn't train or take command in the off-season the way that Joe did. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that papa ed played a role in Dylan leaving for Northern Colorado where papa ed coached before getting fired.
Joe looked better than people give him credit for early on. Just look at the UFR from the Indiana game. Cade literally had one good game against Rutgers and people labelled him as the savior. He was pedestrian at best during our 2021 season and propped up by the best line in the country and a defense with three* first round picks (asterisk for O-JA-BO).
Ronnie Bell aside, the WRs had a combined 21 receptions coming into the 2020 season. I believe that the entire line came in with a combined 2 career starts. Mayfield and Hutch were out for the season early on and Nico ended up opting out. I really don't think people consider or acknowledge how bad of a situation he was thrown into.
The comparisons with cade will always be there given the facts. People are quick to hail cade as a "Michigan legend" and talk about all of the free beers he should get when he comes to A2. They're also quick to point out Milton's flaws, but lets do a blind comparison of their last ~140 attempts.
Player A: 83-139 (59.71%) 971 yards, 5 tds, 6 ints. 7 ypa, 11.7 ypc
Player B: 95-145 (65.52) 1,400 yards, 14 tds, 0 ints. 9.7 ypa, 14.7 ypc
It is refreshing to see support on here for Joe after a lot of people highlighting his flaws. I can't help but to root for him and his success. His self-reflection and humility is consistent with what we've seen from him over the course of the past 3 years. The guy lost his starting job...twice, tried to play through a broken thumb, finished his final season here gracefully and without throwing anyone under the bus, became best friends with his 'competition' (Hendon Hooker) and learned from him. He was the epitome of a leader even when he was holding a clipboard. The team had him lead the "we don't give a damn" celebration after they beat Bama last year.
September 13th, 2023 at 3:31 PM ^
It makes it much easier to root for Milton and Tennessee when they travel to Tuscaloosa to face Saban and The Tide. And, though I would usually root for the Meteor in that game (because of the history of Fulmer) - my cheers might flow orange for a game or two - or three. The other Tennessee game is when they host Georgia
September 13th, 2023 at 5:53 PM ^
Are you using that blind stat comparison to suggest that Cade and Milton weren't that different in their last 140 attempts?
It shows exactly the opposite - the value provided is vastly different.
A 14/0 TD/INT ratio is light years ahead of a 5/6 TD/INT ratio. That kind of difference switches 4 W's into 4 L's. That Milton had yards & completion %s in striking distance doesn't move the needle.
Three cheers for Milton and his turnaround at Tennessee. May he succeed spectacularly this year. But in 2021, we were probably an 8-4 team in 2021 with him at QB, with BPONE reigning over us. Thank God for Cade.
September 13th, 2023 at 6:17 PM ^
Cade is the Player A with the 5/6 TD/INT ratio.
Joe is Player B with the 14/0 TD/INT stat line.
But you're right, the numbers show that Milton is, in your words, "light years" ahead of cade.
September 14th, 2023 at 4:33 AM ^
Cheers to you Bruv! Thank you! 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
September 13th, 2023 at 4:33 PM ^
Cade was pressed into duty a year early.
How so? He led us back against Rutgers in 2020 and then got hurt the next game. Then we know what happened in 2021.
September 13th, 2023 at 8:19 PM ^
There is Zero chance that Harbaugh, of all people, simply handed the job to Joe. No way. Can't believe anyone believes that Mr. Meritocracy would go that route.
September 13th, 2023 at 10:46 PM ^
Under the same conditions I'd like to hear the true story of Benjamin St-Juste
September 14th, 2023 at 9:24 AM ^
Two words: Biff Poggi.
How many baffling personnel, coaching, hiring, etc decisions of ANY kind did you see in 2021 and 2022?
What are we seeing on the OL so far this year in terms of personnel and a desire to run outside zone despite the fact they aren't built for it? The Schemmy mess? The ongoing NCAA stuff that has become a perpetual story?
Could be coincidence. I don't think so.
September 15th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
Biff was employed at Michigan in 2016, 2021, and 2022.
You can officially color me intrigued by your theory, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
September 13th, 2023 at 2:20 PM ^
Interesting that the perception of him from the outside was the opposite of what he thought of himself. Makes you wonder what the coaches told him during his recruitment. Wasn't his entire profile coming in that he was extremely raw but had a super high ceiling? No one expected or really wanted to see him before year 3 at the earliest.
I don't really get the statement about him being haunted by his broken thumb.. He was afraid it would happen again in week 2? He was haunted by missing the whole season and what could have been? They make it sound like he had a horribly gruesome injury like a femur fracture or something.