OSU is More Talented - The False Narrative Continues
Despite beating Ohio's ass the past 2 years, the narrative of "OSU is more talented" is still circulating in the media, specifically today after getting pantsed in their own stadium.
The narrative of OSU is more talented and UM is only winning because of superior coaching is exhausting and false. Yes, JH has coached circles around Day the past 2 years, built a better culture than the one at OSU, seems to develop players (particularly the lines) better than Day...but this "talent gap" narrative is lazy and based on HS data.
Someone needs to write a memo to the ESPN star gazers that having 5* skill position players (like 8-5* WRs) does not a talented squad make. Yes, they are loaded with HS talent, but this idea that we recruit like Purdue and they are UGA 2021 - (An all time NFL draft loaded squad) is exhausting.
Just breaking it down...
1) Our O-line is more talented than their 4-tackle (can't run the ball) O-line. This position group isn't even close.
2) Our D-line with Mazi, a healthy Morris, Okie, Jenkins, Moore - not to mention super frosh's - Graham and Grant). For depth...McGregor, Harrell, Rooks - better than anything in OSU's 2 deep. They have JT Tuimoloa and Zach Harrison as the only player to have any impact. Again, this position group isn't close.
3) DB - Green, Turner, Johnson, Sainristil...better than anything they have at corner / nickel. Our safeties our legit - Paige and Moore steady, disciplined and playmakers. Their corners and secondary has been horrific all year - is anyone back there NFL draft worthy?
4) RB - All in, all healthy Corum + Edwards better than Henderson + Williams. No debate.
5) WR - Marvin Harrison Jr. is legit and was the best pro prospect on the field yesterday. He could be the best NFL receiver in the league by his 2nd or 3rd year. Fleming and Eubuka, solid. JSN -inured all year but and absolute stud. Yes, this is the position group where they are significantly better than us.
6) QB - Stroud is great and accurate when given time to throw to his amazing WR corps. Guy can't scramble and is avearge when under any pressure or needs to go to his second read. JJ, the sophomore is a leader, legit run threat, and is coming into his own as a paser. Edge here to Stroud for overall resume, but not a leader and 0-2 in The Game.
7) Linebacker - Essentially a push. Eichenberg overrated and Colson and Barrett much better than advertised. NHG healthy and we are better there too.
8) TE - LOL. All, Schoonmaker, Loveland...vs. Stover - decent receiving TE that can't block.
9) Special Teams...Money Moody
Not sure what else I missed, but the "talent gap" narrative is ridiculous. By year 2 we are seeing all our 4 stars performing just as well if not better than their 5 stars. Sure, loading up the roster with 8 - 5* receivers will bring up their recruiting ranking, but there just isn't this talent gap the media is pushing.
And yes, they are still soft as hell and coached by 'born on third', but folks need to shut up as if UM is recruiting and coaching up MAC level talent.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:32 PM ^
I'm 95% sure that "more talented" is ESPN speak for "more highly rated coming out of high school."
That said, stargazers do tend to be up their own asses, like a certain oft-banned poster here.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:37 PM ^
Stars matter, recruiting services generally provide ratings that over time regress to the mean. We've done this exercise before.
My point is that they recruit a few skill positions really well, specifically reciever (which inflates their rankings) and then just yank whoever off a list for top o-line and d-line prospects. Many of those are just average players, and their 5 star HS players do not look special like the kids flying around at UGA and with prior Bama teams.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:48 PM ^
It is a bit overblown, but it isn't exactly false. They do have more talent as measured by recruiting rankings (which have some relevance). They also have less of an edge, but still an edge, in draft picks and higher round draft picks in the NFL.
I don't know how many, if any, talking about that narrative this week are saying OSU has the better team. I don't mind the narrative that UM builds a better team due to coaching, strength & conditioning and finding/developing great football players. All irrespective of the recruiting/talent gap which is somewhat objectively real.
November 28th, 2022 at 11:10 PM ^
Just made the mistake of watching CBS HQ youtube post game review. While I won't specifically state who it was (cause I believe he is clown'd in these parts) but one of the CBS reporters, name sounds like dud, specifically stated repeatedly that OSU was the more talented team.
Hey DuD, don't let the facts skew your BS opinion
November 28th, 2022 at 11:12 PM ^
Whoever on this board is Asher over at The Athletic has my undying affection for BLASTING Ari Wasserman 'and his "Stars Matter Foundation"'
skull dot emoji
November 28th, 2022 at 7:35 PM ^
But we got DAWGS.
I’ll take that any day.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:36 PM ^
They can have the talent, we'll take the win.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:36 PM ^
You can be more talented and be poorly coached thus negating that talent.
Also NFL draft volume and round would probably paint a similar "talent" gap for whatever that's worth.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:39 PM ^
Agree it's a bit lazy, but giving the commentators the benefit of the doubt, they may be trying to say that incoming athletes at OSU are more talented than counterparts at UM judging solely by number of stars, 40 times and objective numbers. What they should also be discussing, however, is talent development. Depending on how you want to define it, OSU may be more *talented* overall (with players that are more draftable), but they are not as *skilled* in many positions as UM. For example, Stroud will be drafted higher than Corum. If forced to choose, however, I'd rather have Corum on my team as part of a run-first O than CJ as part of the offense that they run.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:41 PM ^
they likely have more athletic individuals. doesnt always translate to a more complete football team though or indicate who wins a given game. plenty of factors determine a games outcome.
osu claims more guys drafted over past 5-10 years, and more of those guys end up stars than michigan of late.
michigan dominated the last 2 games. that should be enough
November 28th, 2022 at 7:41 PM ^
If you measure talent by NFL draft picks, they have had more talent.
2022 College Football Team Draft Totals - Last 5 Years (on3.com)
But talent alone does not win championships, but it is at least correlated.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:47 PM ^
They've definitely been more talented, specifically going back to the Urban Meyer classes.
The past couple years, however? Outside the receiver position, I'm just not seeing it.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:46 PM ^
There was a talent gap in the '90s too. Buckeyes have always had a big recruiting edge.
I would be interested in seeing how well each program has translated star power into draft status. My gut is that Michigan has been better but probably no by as much as I think.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:04 PM ^
The NFL drafts heavily on potential-raw physical talent. They believe that they can develop talent into skills that they need-and they do an incredible job with this.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:49 PM ^
I'm thinking more of a value-added measurement. It is possible to calculate how well each program has turned star power into draft status.
Just looking at 2016 as the first year Harbaugh had full influence on recruiting:
OSU
Nick Bosa 0.9965 #2OA
Jonathon Cooper 0.9811 7th round
Dwayne Haskins 0.9561 15thOA
Michael Jordan 0.9411 4th round
Jordan Fuller 0.9403 6th round
Luke Farrell 0.9233 5th round
Malik Harrison 0.8568 3rd round
UM
Rashan Gary 1.000 #12OA
Ben Bredeson 0.9799 4th round
David Long 0.9675 3rd round
Michael Onwenu 0.9571 6th round
Devin Bush 0.8951 #10OA
Chris Evans 0.8911 6th round
Khaleke Hudson 0.8819 5th round
Josh Uche 0.8558 2nd round
Josh Metellus 0.8540 6th round
and then additional consideration for star power not drafted.
Don't intend for this to appear cherry picked, but it does look like at least in '16 UM outperformed OSU developing players to draft picks by relative star power.
November 28th, 2022 at 9:31 PM ^
They do an incredibly bad job at this, and make up for it with monumental inefficiency.
There are 32 teams and 53 roster spots per team, not counting practice squad. That's 1696 jobs.
The NFL draft is 259 picks, not including signed UDFAs. That's 15% of the league's fixed capacity for full-time roster spots. And they do that every year. They are explicitly designed to churn 15% of their labor force, year in and year out. The average career is 3 years.
They hardly bother developing talent. From what I've heard, all the marginal prospects are fed from a fire hose and thrown into the frying pan, and if you can't immediately succeed, welp tough tooties, there's a hundred more hungry players to go through, plus free agents still clinging to hope. It's incredibly wasteful but when you've got more candidates than you know what to do with, sociopathic owner sez who cares?
There's a vast pool of completely undeveloped talent and they don't care. There are so many young athletes willing to take anyone's place, they take full advantage. The media doesn't talk about it because they're too busy breathlessly covering the superstars and besides, the people don't want to hear about the icky stuff like ruined careers, trampled dreams, and crippled bodies.
November 28th, 2022 at 10:54 PM ^
I think you've managed here to take a perfectly workable system and present it like it's a bad thing. What's the solution? Choose one player from the hundreds of eager recruits, nurture him very carefully over several years, and see if he's good enough by then? While shutting out the entire rest of the talent pool? The system you describe gives hundreds of players a shot in any given year. It's not a great shot, but is it worse than giving a select few every chance in the world while the other several hundred get zero chance at all?
November 28th, 2022 at 7:49 PM ^
Harbaughs first 3 classes he went after high star ratings. After that didn’t pan out he started going after real football players who love to play football. After these guys developed we started winning big. All of this takes more time than anyone wants
November 28th, 2022 at 7:55 PM ^
Great cultures don’t just happen they are created very intentionally. It takes longer than any coach would want sometimes but usually when you get it right then you take off. Look at Wooden at UCLA.
November 28th, 2022 at 9:16 PM ^
Look at Wooden at UCLA.
Are you being sarcastic? I can't think of a worse example. That's one of the shadiest cultures in all of sports history. Imagine if Ed Martin was much much much more shady.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
Talent isn't everything...
November 28th, 2022 at 9:08 PM ^
You've defeated your own thesis. That is one talented dog, and you know every girl-dog in town wants him...
+1 for psychologically disturbing
November 28th, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
I don’t get the stroud can’t throw under pressure narrative. I think he may not have the best pocket presence, but when he is being chased and scrambles he often connects with receivers right as they are going out of bounds.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:11 PM ^
Terrific arm. He won the '19 Elite 11 MVP-where you don't have to worry about getting hit. Under live fire pressure his brain turns to mush very quickly. I cannot imagine that he will make it in the NFL.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:18 PM ^
I’d be interested in seeing the All-22 of this game. Seemed like we were content to drop 7-8 into coverage and force Stroud to make the right read every time. Sometimes he did and sometimes he didn’t, but we knew if we blitzed like crazy (which many were expecting), Harrison Jr. especially would have a field day.
Minter more than earned his check yesterday. Brilliant game plan.
Forgot to add that I’d be seriously concerned about Stroud if I was a NFL team. Because of the talent gap, I don’t think OSU QBs develop an ability to really go through their reads which is a must in the NFL. As a Bears fan reluctantly rooting for Fields, it’s rhe #1 criticism of him. Takes forever in the pocket when his first read isn’t open because at OSU his first read was usually open.
November 28th, 2022 at 9:22 PM ^
Forgot to add that I’d be seriously concerned about Stroud if I was a NFL team.
Concerned? If I was an NFL team I wouldn't concern myself with him at all. An NFL QB has to show toughness and a desire to win at all costs. Talent isn't enough in the NFL. Stroud just isn't a competitor.
November 28th, 2022 at 9:01 PM ^
I agree I think he will be a typical osu qb in the NFL. I guess my contention was physically he can make the throws with guys in his face and under pressure.For example, the throw on the amazing play Sainristil made, he had a guy in his face, was backpedaling and threw a perfect ball. He very well may not not make great decisions in those times but when he does find someone often puts it where it needs to be.
November 28th, 2022 at 9:12 PM ^
CJ has hurt this team on not running the ball when he can all year . . He doesn’t step up in the pocket and is afraid to get hit . He made a comment earlier this year that he doesn’t have to run the ball to win . As far as a NFL career, I don’t see it happening….
November 28th, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
You can be on team "stars matter" while also being on team "stars aren't all that matters".
The same people using stargazers as a pejorative also tend to.be the same guys equally thrilled when UM gets a 5star to sign on.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:57 PM ^
Or you can employ the Ari lizard brain that thinks stars are everything
How’s that working out for you?
November 28th, 2022 at 7:52 PM ^
this "talent gap" narrative is lazy and based on HS data.
Yes, because that's how people typically measure talent...
OSU objectively has significantly more 4*s and 5*s
November 28th, 2022 at 7:52 PM ^
Let them keep saying whatever they want! Eventually they will get sick and tired of OSU balls in their mouth! #GoBlue Beat Purdue #Back2Back
November 28th, 2022 at 7:55 PM ^
Stroud is a better passer from a safe, protected pocket. JJ is better at making plays, running, scrambling, RPO’s, blocking, and as shown on Saturday, he can pass too. I’d take a sophomore JJ over a senior Stroud every day of the week. OSU is not more talented at that position.
November 28th, 2022 at 10:43 PM ^
Stroud may have been aided by Amazing catches but both this year and last he made some sick throws. JJ has a hard time hitting people in stride. JJ might be better by the end of this year if we get him some reps but he isn’t right now.
OSU has had a lot more talent last 30+ years but Bo/Mo/Llo had their number for a long time. Jimbo finally has us back in the saddle.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:55 PM ^
Talent is as talent does.
November 28th, 2022 at 7:55 PM ^
It’s a tough time to be an osu fan, an osu troll, or an ohio person in general
November 28th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
Stars have to mean something. Saban wouldn't have 7 national championships without them.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:33 PM ^
This.
In a vacuum, higher stars will usually win over lower stars, that's why coaches are hired & fired. It's clear that Day is no Saban. The OP has the narrative of stars don't matter which couldn't be further from reality.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:45 PM ^
Stars matter. Where you have them matters more.
Loading up with 8 - 5* recievers and 3- 5* running backs...cool.
I'll take the 4* monsters on the offensive and defensive lines.
I think the rating system is broken in that highly rated QB's, DE's, and DT's should actually be weighted more than highly rated WR's and safeties, for example.
An elite QB or game wrecking edge rusher has more impact on a team's success than and elite WR.
November 28th, 2022 at 10:42 PM ^
This subjective take does not hold water. OSU is littered with 5*s at these positions you speak of, a quick search will show this. There is not a 5 star @ OSU that Harbaugh would not take if they fit his system. Many of these recruiting battles we lost, if we start winning these we could be unstoppable.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:01 PM ^
On paper, OSU is more talented. But paper doesn't win games. It is foolish to obsess over what the media says or thinks. 95% thought OSU would walk over Michigan. Now they are washing that bullshit off their chicken lips.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:36 PM ^
bull shit
chicken lips
All this barnyard talk might be more at home on an MSU blog.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:37 PM ^
Moose pies then?
November 28th, 2022 at 8:02 PM ^
The talent factor narrative is a shallow way of trying to shift the reason for OSU losing to us onto their coaches. Yeah, that may be part of it. But, it's more complicated than that. For openers, having a huge amount of talent can prqovide a false sense of invincibility that causes them to rely on it. Also, having all that talent is highly likely to cause internal friction within their program as players' high expectations for playing time collide with the reality of limited minutes. Highly talented players usually have very strong egos which need to be managed well by the coaches. Otherwise, dissatisfaction can eat away at team morale. I wonder if OSU isn't suffering from these issues.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:02 PM ^
This seems like some unnecessary outrage.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:03 PM ^
Coaching matters. Perception matters. Until last year the perception was that tOSU would always beat Michigan because (fill in the blank).
Now the tables have turned. Look for recruiting to be even better going forward. If you are an O or D line prospect why would you not pick Michigan over any other school? If you are a running back? Now, after we unleashed JJ, how about wide receivers? Linebackers (hey, you can throw a pass, or run the ball too!), defensive backs? Are you kidding me? Kicker, punter?
We have a very, very professional coaching staff. Want to get better kids? Come on over!
Coach has said he just wants players who love football and want to get better at it. That is the correct attitude. My father used to say that those that have to fight to get to the top of the mountain stay there longer. It's the work that goes into that process that makes champions.
November 28th, 2022 at 9:13 PM ^
"Coach has said he just wants players who love football and want to get better at it. That is the correct attitude. My father used to say that those that have to fight to get to the top of the mountain stay there longer. It's the work that goes into that process that makes champions"
Great point. I have been around a lot of people who have gotten to very high levels of success in their field. That fight to get to the top of the mountain is enormously important to long term success.
For our guys, it makes me happy. Because I believe that fight translates well beyond the football field. Eventually, all of these players will be done with football, and we want them to have great lives. That internal fire will really help them no matter what they pursue.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:05 PM ^
They do have more talent and depth on their roster. They’ve lost two big ten games in the last couple years, obviously both to us, but they have so much talent. I’d love osu recruiting to drop off a cliff and they start losing multiple games a year. Honestly, that’s what that fanbase deserves
November 28th, 2022 at 8:07 PM ^
Mental and physical toughness aren't measured in stars. To me OSU goes after the stars as does A&M. I don't think either bother to check the character box.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:14 PM ^
Harbaugh said in his presser today he doesn’t care about stars.
he wants players who want to play football. He talks to the coaches and gets a read.
seems to be working. I’ll trust him.