Nate Tice on Wisconsin stealing Michigan's offensive signals in 2010
On today's episode of "Prospects to Pros" on the Athletic, Nate Tice said this about stealing signs:
But when we would be on defense, I would look for the opposing team, look at the opposing quarterbacks, and it would be so funny that some teams would have 500 guys fake signalling then... as the game went along some guys get lazy and you can start piecing together what it is... uh, I would say, actually, at Michigan when Rich Rod was there in 2010 they had all these fake signallers, all these signs, everything, and Rich Rod was the signal guy. So after a while, you realize that, and then you can even see on the box score - we ended up blowin' them out, but it was like - they had a ten-play drive, and that's when me and the other backup quarterback figured out the signals, and they went three-and-out, three-and-out, and we we up by three scores... uh, but, it's part of the game. [etc.]
Looking at the box score, Nate's memory is pretty good. Michigan's second drive of the game was an 11-play drive ending in a field goal miss, then the third and fourth drives were two three-and-out drives: 3 plays and 4 yards, 3 plays and 3 yards. I looked at the UFR and Brian didn't note anything out the ordinary; there was only one RPS -1, on the first play of the third drive.
Anyway, this conversation was obviously sparked by the controversy, but I was interested in Nate's story and shook my head at the fact that RR was the signal caller. Like, of course he was.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:01 PM ^
This has nothing to do with our allegations though. It has been beat over the head this kind of signal stealing is fully legal.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:02 PM ^
Yes, I just thought it was an interesting story
October 25th, 2023 at 11:31 PM ^
Something I've been wondering about: Would this stuff show up in RPS? Or would it just look like an individual defender or two making a really good read on the play?
October 26th, 2023 at 12:09 AM ^
I do think there's something to be said that these guys "figured out" out not just who was the correct signal caller but what the signals were within 18 plays (7 and 11 play drives before the two 3-and-outs). If you assume the first drive is scripted somewhat to break tendencies, you may see new signs or ones in weird spots so I'm not sure how helpful they are. But then by the end of the second drive they were stopping UM consistently and then it was punt and punt to end the half before UM started scoring in the second half.
So my argument is that Wisconsin had to have known what the signals meant beforehand to some degree, as it's unlikely there was a clear pattern in basically a dozen plays. Maybe RR hadn't updated his signals over the years so by 2010 they had a solid corpus to rely on, but it's also just as likely they had some additional info and then they could match it during the game with what he's showing.
The issue has always been how Stalions got the info but it feels somewhat irrelevant. He likely pushed the envelope but I also think a lot of the reporting around "coaches from other teams in the conference are pissed" is what you'd expect from everyone; nobody's going to not take a shot at a competitor or give them an out by saying other people do it. I just suspect this practice is more common than we think but UM is caught because their guy was dumb enough to do it poorly. And all the staffs are set up to have plausible deniability to however they do it.
October 26th, 2023 at 2:40 AM ^
I just suspect this practice is more common than we think but UM is caught because their guy was dumb enough to do it poorly.
Again, the problem is not that he was figuring out the play calling, its that he was doing so by getting people to scout opponents in-season.
October 26th, 2023 at 6:09 AM ^
The issue has always been how Stalions got the info but it feels somewhat irrelevant.
Read it again.
October 26th, 2023 at 8:31 AM ^
Sure, my point is that I'm guessing other programs have setups like this - do we honestly think that this one obsessive guy was the first to realize you could use a cell phone to record games? Again, I've long contended that with the proliferation of analysts and assistants on staffs that there are guys everywhere whose job it is to gain an advantage over the opponent, and the reason nobody rats on each other is they all do it and they know everyone else knows it so there's a truce. Paying some outside firm to dig into one guy feels immensely personal and somewhat emotional instead of logical, and based on stuff UM insiders have said along with former and current players and coaches across CFB it sure sounds like they all knew they had guys like Stalions doing stuff in the gray area.
UM is going to get punished because they were dumb enough to get caught, just like Ole Miss dis with Tunsil, UT with bags of cash, etc. But the language around this whole offense treats it like Stalions did "electronic stealing of signs" when what we're talking about is cell phone signals during games. My guess is having friendly fans do that has been around for a while.
October 26th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Agree with your second paragraph specifically. They knew what the signs meant, it just took them a little bit of time to figure out which coach they should be looking at to figure out the actual play call. So how exactly did they know the signs before the game? Maybe RR hadn't changed his signals, or they had someone scouting signs at a different game...
October 26th, 2023 at 4:09 AM ^
Look, this is a PR war through and through. Yes there is an investigation but that's like 1% of the substance here. The NCAA and B1G are witch-hunting UM, and it is almost entirely being tried in the court of public opinion. That's why they jumped to announce it -- violating their own rules -- before they knew if they had anything. They want to hang Michigan before they even start the trial (Michigan hasn't been formally notified yet), and the way to do that is rumor-mongering and media leaks.
Got that? OK, so the jury ultimately isn't the NCAA (who at most can only wrist-slap M), but the public. The goal is to convince everyone that Michigan's recent success is illegitimate, acquired by cheating. Well, that public is currently riding the media's wave that the scandal is Michigan is stealing signals, in full defiance of the fact that that is not only common but legal. Don't anyone say "scouting"; literally no one outside of MGoBlog is reading NCAA bylaws.
So yeah it kind of matters that people are coming forward with the message that stealing signals is no big deal. Because it isn't.
October 26th, 2023 at 9:13 AM ^
You are absolutely right about this being tried in the court of public opinion. Depending on who is doing the viewing of the actual likely violation, it can be seen as nothing more than operating in an undefined grey area or linked to a little more serious violation of in person scouting during the season.
The NFL patriots got shredded by the public over spygate, even though many of the ex players and coaches said it was common for many teams to do this, even if not done to the level the patriots did it. Deflategate was an even more egregious example of the nfl/colts going to the court of public opinion and trying the patriots there, regardless of the actual truth or seriousness of the “crime”. At that point all of the Patriots championships became tainted in the eyes of non-patriots fans.
I don’t really care what the public says. I’m pretty sure Alabama and OSU fans don’t care that the general public sees their championships as less than honest to goodness great teams because of the many rumors about buying players that actually constitutes a major competitive advantage for them over most other teams. 🤷♂️
October 26th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Not giving two shits about the NFL, I couldn’t tell you two things about the patriots investigations. The only ones who care are the fans of and those against. Unfortunately when this shit ends up on GMA then even those who don’t care draw a conclusion based off of a 2 minute segment. That’s the court of public opinion at its finest.
October 26th, 2023 at 6:30 AM ^
I think though that 80% of the outage seems rooted in the idea that stealing signs is an NCAA violation on its own. Stealing/deciphering signs happens constantly so Michigans only crime seems to be a gray area of in-person scouting to do so...rather than just doing it by tape. Takes some of the wind out of the sails of feigned outrage
October 25th, 2023 at 11:03 PM ^
WHO.THE.FUCK.CARES.ANYMORE?2010?I.WAS.STILL.A.PRODUCTIVE.MEMBER.OF.SOCIETY.BACK.THEN.
Tells ya all you need to know.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:03 PM ^
Must we have 20 separate threads per day of these third party opinions/narratives that serve little to no relevance?
October 25th, 2023 at 11:11 PM ^
We don’t have to. But you know we will.
October 26th, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^
Sorry, but I enjoy them. It's a bye week. What else are you going to talk about? It's more fun to hit F5 and see new content than something I read 4 hours ago.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:24 PM ^
That game really sucked.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:30 PM ^
Hey guys! I know what will cheer everyone up. Let's relive one of the many ass kickings we received during the worst period of Michigan football history!
October 25th, 2023 at 11:51 PM ^
I always thought that one major function of MGoBlog was to relitigate the Rich Rod years
October 26th, 2023 at 10:13 AM ^
And the Hoke years. And the Carr years. And...
October 26th, 2023 at 8:56 AM ^
It should cheer us up. Look how much better they've gotten since then.
October 26th, 2023 at 9:44 AM ^
Yeah things are aces today. They were awesome 12 days ago I have to admit. The last week has felt like sitting on a hemorrhoid the size of a grapefruit.
October 26th, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^
Saturday's game was rather enjoyable, I'd say.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:48 PM ^
Back then I was just Wolverine Devotee.
October 26th, 2023 at 12:06 AM ^
The long list of incompetant things RR did as a coach is extensive and it did not change when he went to Arizona.
I was one who bought into his success at WVU, but it was so clear he just didn't have the overall knowledge of football to be a head coach at a major conference school. WVU had an easy schedule every year and he f'd it up at least once every year.
October 26th, 2023 at 6:34 AM ^
Arizona provided useful data on RR. He was shown to be particularly bad recruiter and developer of talent there. His classes ranked in the Iowa and Wisconsin range, but very few of his guys wound up in the NFL.
- - -
That Wisconsin game sucked, but I'm always amused at people who thought it was the worst of the RichRod games. I guess they don't remember Toledo, etc.
October 26th, 2023 at 9:18 AM ^
That was already a pattern at WVU, where they were one of the top two or three teams in the Big East but were next to last in number of NFL players produced.
It got me thinking about which is a better measure of program success. At an elite program where a fair percentage of the players have professional aspirations, I think a case can be made that future success in one's chosen field is more important than the test results obtained in college.
October 26th, 2023 at 7:31 AM ^
Taking one O Lineman in two years tanked our program for a decade, MOAR SLOT NINJAS!!!
October 26th, 2023 at 12:22 AM ^
I don't know guys. I'm tired of this shit already. If the NCAA does something to Michigan this year and suspends Harbaugh or bans Michigan from post season I don't know if I'll ever watch college football again. It's too much. I can't do BPONE again. Life's too short to care about Michigan when the universe won't let us have nice things. I'll find something else to care about to replace it.
October 26th, 2023 at 5:35 AM ^
Badger JJ Watt, said what UofM is accused of is called scouting.
It's interesting though that this source says it's a big deal because on the Huge Show a current father of an Air Force linebacker said it doesn't help much because you barely have any time to get signals in from the side as you're reacting to the offensive formation.
October 26th, 2023 at 7:38 AM ^
It's signal stealing in the headlines because that's what sounds bad and then when called out "actually it's in season scouting which is illegal".
October 26th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Wisconsin ran for 450 yards in that game. I am not sure it would have mattered what Michigan did. That was also the game with the Gregg Robinson bear thing. https://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/gerg-master-motivator-teddy-bear-method-gif
October 26th, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
I listened to this story, too, and I found it interesting...but also, I don't remember Rich Rodriguez waving his arms around and being crazy with his signals. It's a little strange for a head coach to be the signal guy, outside of what Harbaugh does/used to do with his signaling of the play number for the wristband.
October 26th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
Didn’t RR wear stupid green and red sweatbands on his wrists? That’s the only thing that comes to mind