bronxblue

August 12th, 2011 at 9:31 PM ^

Again, without even knowing what the rumors are (sorry, if I missed something please link), it is hard to say whether or not someone's high horse was properly taken of the stable or not.  As of now, it sucks to lose such a good player to another elite team, but so be it.  If the rumors are false (whatever they are), and Kellen left on his own accord for whatever reason, then I wish him the best.  If he led a violent coup of a prison plane then crash-landed it on the Las Vegas strip (yes, Con Air is on), then I guess best of luck to Stoops.  But either way, he's not at UM anymore, and I could care less what he does or did before coming to UM or afterward.

all_i_say_is_lol

August 12th, 2011 at 11:01 PM ^

the RUMORS (and being that he is no longer a student at UofM/Associated with UofM/complete rumors) involved a sexual assualt towards a girl.  Was posted all over a Michgan Football Facebook group a while back.  Not sure how said it first and not sure if it is at all true.

Neg away if you want, but I believe the internet was MADE for free flow of information and again, they were just RUMORS.

CAwolverine

August 13th, 2011 at 1:13 AM ^

Thanks for the clarification. It sickens me that he was not allowed to enroll due to rumors. He was a lifelong fan whose dream came true to come to UM.
<br>
<br>We all know that EVERY time someone makes a complaint that they are telling the truth (review Duke lacrosse fiasco).
<br>
<br>I am extremely disappointed in how this was handled given NO legal action has been taken against Kellen to date. Even if legal action takes place down the road, he should have to be found guilty before facing disiplinary action.
<br>
<br>What happens when some decides that they want Denard gone? Hey I got an idea how about they just make up a story about him since coach Hoke has shown that he doesn't need the legal process to run it's course. He just assumes guilt.

RickH

August 13th, 2011 at 1:50 AM ^

I think the situation was handled fine by Hoke.  I'm sure the evidence was enough to convince Hoke that he did it, whether he admitted it or not.  Nobody is going to get kicked out for a rumor.  Re-think your logic and the obvious answer to the question of guilt before considering Brady Hoke a dumbass for believing an internet rumor.

People don't press charges all the time.  Whether be the case of little evidence, a shady witness (in this case, a girl could easily be drunk), or whatever other reason, it happens.  He didn't get charged or prosecuted that we know of and this could all be a lie, but where there is smoke, there's fire.

bronxblue

August 13th, 2011 at 7:43 AM ^

Hoke handled the situation as well as could be expected.  If he lets Kellen in and these charges are proven true, then he brought in a convicted sex offender, which last time I checked isn't a good thing.  And as a first-year coach replacing a guy who had a couple of strikes against him because of (real or perceived) lack of high-quality recruits, better to err on the side of safety.  That said, I know that accusations are not even in the same realm as convictions, but at this point I'd rather not have my potential freshman LB starter being dragged off to jail for something inappropriate he did with a girl.  I mean, we aren't MSU.

nyc_wolverines

August 12th, 2011 at 10:25 PM ^

Another brilliant example of justice. Take a young person, who did something heinous (and for whatever reason it can't be discussed here, so I guess it involves desecrating the image of Mohammed)  and thus his actions preclude his ability to be included in the company of distinguished men of Michigan.

Hogwash. He needs to be around good, upstanding folks. But instead he was shed like a leper. I don't want to discuss recent redshirts  - cause we all know that they deserve multiple chances - but Kellen, and others who are discarded as quickly after an event such as this, deserve a second chance.

The U of M coaching staff can do what they will, but hats off to Oklahoma for seeing that people can grow and change.

 

 

 

ILwolverine

August 12th, 2011 at 10:36 PM ^

I'm kind of torn on this. I think an act like that should take away the privilege to attend a university for free and play football. At the same time I think second chances should be given IF he shows he has grown and changed. In such a small time frame there us no way he has done this.

yoopergoblue

August 12th, 2011 at 10:43 PM ^

I'd like to agree with you but there are only a few actions looked down upon more these days than a DUI and what Jones is accused of (rumor) is one of them.  I am going to wait to hear what really happened before I judge the coaching staff/ AD on their handling of the situation.

maineandblue

August 13th, 2011 at 12:37 AM ^

If he did in fact commit sexual assault that's certainly a reason to boot him off the team. But in this day and age, if there were charges pressed against him (and especially if he was found guilty) how has that not been made public yet? Would they kick him off the team based on hearsay? Did another player witness it or something? In the words of Towelie, I don't know what's going on.

Waldorf Wolverine

August 13th, 2011 at 1:57 AM ^

If the incident occurred while he was a minor, it would be sealed under a juvenile record and not public. If the charges (if any) were dropped, or if there was a plea agreement, his record could be expunged. Then you have a situation where one school might reject him on moral grounds, but another school could admit him on the technicality that he doesn't have a record.

I'm not saying this is what happened, merely that it's one reason why we may never learn the facts.

El Jeffe

August 12th, 2011 at 10:25 PM ^

How is it possible that I know exactly as much about this situation--all of it--now as I would have before the internet was invented? That's very frustrating.

Welp, at least the naked ladies are still there.

StephenRKass

August 12th, 2011 at 10:28 PM ^

The rumors had to do with inappropriate relationship behavior, unchivalrous behavior that may once have been winked at but (rightly) no longer is ignored.

The problem is you ruin someone's reputation with rumors. But also, these rumors are often hard to verify (and thus, stay in the realm of rumors.)

maizenbluedevil

August 12th, 2011 at 11:52 PM ^

What really bothers me about this is it seems like the coaching staff made a decision based on hearsay.  

Legal proceedings are a matter of public record.  So, if there were legal proceedings, we would be hearing about them, which leads me to believe there aren't any, since we've heard nothing.

In the legal system, it's "innocent until proven guilty" and guilt MUST be beyond a reasonable doubt. Since there's no legal proceedings, that means there's not enough evidence to prosecute. The Michigan coaches, by presuming his guilt, have given Jones even less of a fair shake than our so-called justice system would.  

Reading between the lines, it sounds like what Jones is being accused of comes down to a his word vs. her word type thing.  Accusations like that should not be taken lightly, but, why is it, that in these cases, men are usually presumed guilty, instead of innocent until proven guilty?  The Duke lacrosse case from a couple years ago shows how absolutely foolish that type of thinking is.  When that happened, there were 88 Duke professors that ran a full-page ad in the Durham Herald Sun condemning the lacrosse team.  When they were later exonerated in a court of law, those professors had egg on their faces.  

I'll reserve judgment because I don't know all the facts, but, looking at the similarities, I can't help but wonder if the coaching staff isn't headed down the same path by not letting the legal system do its thing, and instead presuming Jones' guilt.

maizenbluedevil

August 13th, 2011 at 12:11 AM ^

Of course it's not a right, but, it would bother me that the coaches would dismiss a player based on a rumor, for something there wasn't even enough evidence to prosecute.  

 

And yeah, you could be right about the second part.  The reason Jones is gone may not have anything to do with that.  But him being gone, and these rumors being out there, seems too much to be coincidence to me, it might just be a coincidence though, maybe he just left.  We may never know the truth.  

PurpleStuff

August 13th, 2011 at 12:18 AM ^

Even assuming the rumors aren't true, their existence could be legit grounds for a guy to want to leave Ann Arbor.  I can't imagine arriving on campus as an 18 year old freshman and immediately having to deal with people saying I was a borderline rapist all over the internet, especially if it wasn't true (I had to drunkenly proposition/paw many a chubby girl to earn that reputation). 

Would also explain why OU would be quick to scoop the guy up.  Zero basis for believing this (or any other explanation at this point) but it is one scenario that makes the whole bizarre situation seem slightly less crazy than it looks to be on the surface.

maizenbluedevil

August 13th, 2011 at 12:26 AM ^

"Even assuming the rumors aren't true, their existence could be legit grounds for a guy to want to leave Ann Arbor."

You're right and that's very unfortunate.  It's kinda sad to see how many people on this board have rushed to crucify Jones based solely on a rumor.

Take, for example, the very first reply on this thread:

"Shows the integrity of OU..."

This comment and others like it presupposes Jones' guilt.  

It baffles that people are so utterly convinced that Jones is an evil deviant, based on a few vague internet rumblings.  Folks have jumped to conclusions on this in the worst way.  

M-Wolverine

August 13th, 2011 at 9:54 AM ^

The standard for conviction is the higher one. There are lots of people we can pretty much determine by the evidence are VERY likely to have done it, buy don't meet the burden of proof for conviction. Luckily a University isn't held to legal standards. In the Duke case they SHOULDN'T have been prosecuted on shaky evidence. But if the school wanted to dump them for hanging out with craziness strippers and bringing scandal to the University, they'd well within their right. Just because OJ and Casey Anthony weren't convicted of all their charges due to the evidence doesn't mean you have to give them a scholarship. Even USC and OSU feel uneasy about that.

fitty88

August 14th, 2011 at 12:27 AM ^

Is the key phrase here. Coaches and AD's have access to more information than we ever will. Anyone who has worked in that setting knows the disconnect between what the public "knows" and what really happened, or is going on. Part of having the right people running the programs is the trust the public/fans have that they will make the right call. I totally agree that the threshold is decidedly not a legal one, but rather, what is the standard of the organization you are, or would propose to be a part of. Michigan can't afford black eyes right now in the face of recent trouble, so the threshold is going to be lower. Further, it is exactly like Bo used to say: "you must keep yourself beyond reproach- always, and more than other people. It's not fair but it is the price of being part of something special!"

maineandblue

August 13th, 2011 at 12:42 AM ^

This just doesn't add up for me. I don't think it's fair to boot someone because of hearsay (assuming he's denying it) if there is an agreement between the parties (he signed his LOI, Michigan accepted it). I find it hard to buy the idea that he just wanted to leave. Wasn't this the kid who grew up an M fan because of his dad and sang The Victors in Hoke's (or RR's?) office when he committed?

Blue in Yarmouth

August 15th, 2011 at 12:25 PM ^

and agree with a lot of what you are saying, you make some very good points. From where I stand though, there are some things that you can look at that would lead me to believe something is at play here (not just a kid deciding he doesn't want to be at UM).

The fact that neither the coaches or the player have come out and said something along the lines of "the player just doesn't feel comfortable with his decision to attend Michigan" (or something to that effect) when they obviously know about the rumours that are circulating lead me to believe that something has happened.

I don't know if the rumours are true or if it is something else all together, but it leads me to believe that Jones got up to something that lead to UM telling him to move on. 

If we honestly look at the situation (one where the rumours are flying about a sexual assault), I can't think of a single reason for the coaches or the player not to step forward and say that it has nothing to do with any legal issues or problems with the player, just to quite the chatter. Hoke has been asked on a few occasions and simply says Jones in not on the team. If nothing was amiss, he could simply say he didn't want to come to UM for whatever reason.

Again, this is all just based on my interpretation of what has transpired to this point, but I have a hard time believing that Hoke or Jones wouldn't have come out and made a statement to put these rumours to rest if there wasn't something fishy going on. Just my two cents.

Bixler

August 12th, 2011 at 11:52 PM ^

     I thought TomVH made a post when this was going on saying that the reason Jones was gone had nothing to do with anything he did. Am I mistaken? Or maybe I was in a drunken haze and imagined it?  I just don't know... 

JEWBILEE

August 13th, 2011 at 1:35 AM ^

next to rawls and brennan...i was looking forward to watching him the most from the incoming 2011 class; kid had an unbelievable highlight tape and some impressive stats to go along. but i wish i could better understand the circumstances on why michigan wouldn't let him enroll...was it grades? attitude? burning kittens? sheesh the curiosity is killing me right now

MCalibur

August 13th, 2011 at 1:57 AM ^

but I find it disconcerting that so many people seem to think that they do. Behold, the  jury of your peers.

The boot feels premature to me based on what is publically known at this time. I trust that Hoke/Brandon know with an appropriate level of certainty to make what I feel is a drastic decision in order to oreserve what they feel is in Michigan's bet interest. My problem is, that is not--and never willbe--a universal standard. Thank God for that.