westwardwolverine

February 4th, 2017 at 8:27 PM ^

While I think Beilein should be finished after the season, I don't get the animosity toward him. He's a good guy, but unlike when you're saying that about someone like Brady Hoke, he actually accomplished some great things at Michigan. He took the program to heights it hadn't been in a long time and he deserves credit for that. Yeah, he wasn't able to sustain it, but this should be an amicable separation and there's no need to bag on the guy. 

 

Ronnie Kaye

February 4th, 2017 at 8:33 PM ^

He's one of the ten highest paid coaches in college basketball. He's been to the second weekend of the tournament twice in a decade. People have a right to bag on that. I don't care how "nice of a guy" he is.

UMForLife

February 4th, 2017 at 8:39 PM ^

What animosity. Nobody discounts what he did for the program. I have not been on here before saying he should be fired. But losing to MSU and OSU, when they have one of their worst teams, is unacceptable. This whole drama reminds me of Hoke's last year. Beilein lost his touch or whatever he had left. The guy should just retire just like Red last year. We keep these people around after their prime.

stephenrjking

February 4th, 2017 at 8:48 PM ^

The harsh words and hysterical overreaction (not to mention the shots at Warde, who is in year one of the job) undermine a lot of the argument for Beilein's dismissal here, in my opinion. I understand this is the Fire Beilein snowflake thread, but the hyperbole is just over the top. Makes me wonder how rational this really is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm open to arguments about why a coach should be fired in the first season his team missed the tournament after a reasonably successful run of tournament appearances, including a fair number of wins and, you know, some incredible deep runs. 

But people who suggest that he has no idea what he's doing genuinely mysify me. It's possible to know what you're doing and still need to be let go. The idea that Beilein, who is a brilliant offensive mind (and, it should be said, whose offense is statistically perfectly fine this year) doesn't have a clue about basketball offense is hogwash.

One could argue that this player mix makes the offense too high variance without someone that can reliably drive and score in the paint (Beilein certainly deserves criticism for the personnel that have come through since the FF run). One can certainly argue that his defensive work has been bad, or that he isn't adjusting to modern basketball theory on how he rotates players, or that he doesn't coach his players to be tough enough.

The anger and the rage feels good, but it makes for poor arguments. I appreciate the more level-headed voices. Their suggestion that a change needs to be seriously considered after the season are far more persuasive than hysterical flaming.

stephenrjking

February 4th, 2017 at 9:25 PM ^

I don't dislike you the way a lot of others do, WD. I think you're fun and I appreciate your passion. I even like the apparel threads.

But your unending vendetta against Warde Manuel for existing is one of the most irrational repeated positions on this board. 

Wolverine Devotee

February 4th, 2017 at 9:35 PM ^

We have to be more vigilant about our ADs so another DB doesn't happen. Warde did a GREAT thing convincing our dynamic, young M Tennis coach to resign from ASU just a week after taking that job and return here. I'm just paying close attention to everything Warde is doing because with DB I was blindly loyal until the fireworks fiasco, not realizing all the other garbage he did.

stephenrjking

February 4th, 2017 at 9:51 PM ^

Love ya, man, but you're overreacting to DB and, IMO, to your own (real) role in his demise. And, in fact, demanding the wrong things. You are demanding that Warde make decisive action, without any clear idea of what that action should be. DB regularly took decisive action while being either ignorant or deliberately contemptuous of the impact of those actions. If anything, he was too involved, too active, and not reflective enough. DB did in fact force a lot of coaches out, or so we're told.

You are basically demanding the same of Warde and sabotaging any credibility you have to criticize him by attacking him in rather cruel terms so early on. You're basically blaming him for this basketball team ahead of time (if he actually fires Beilein that won't satisfy you, since you are so convinced that he's wrong that any action you agree with is just "catching up" anyway) and, without evidence, holding him solely responsible for a losing hockey team. 

Meanwhile, he's spending most of his time out of the limelight, making the multi-million dollar bureacracy of the athletic department hum along, keeping Jim Harbaugh happy and the department functional. 

That's most of what his job is. Most ADs are bureaucrats, because that's a large part of what they do. Dave Brandon thought he was an activist CEO. Don't demand the same of Warde.

andidklein

February 5th, 2017 at 12:50 AM ^

It seems that Warde is suffering from paralysis by analysis. He really needs to either shit or get off the pot. Since he allowed Red to stay this season, you know damn well he won't be doing more than one coaching search per year. The basketball team is exactly in the same spot the football program was in at the end of Lloyd's reign. No one wanted to tell Lloyd it was time to leave just because he won a MNC.

Being an AD means you have to make some hard choices. At this rate if Beilein is still here next year, the only people at Crisler will be the TV Crew and half of the student section.

Year of Revenge II

February 4th, 2017 at 9:54 PM ^

People are frustrated. JB obviously knows what he is doing, and truth be told he has earned some goodwill with both his employer and the fans. I don't think he is going anywhere after this season, but I feel the culture needs a change, and JB is not going to bring it, nor should he be expected to. He has had a great career, but his recruiting, especially lately, does not bode well for Michigan. Can he turn it around? Yes, but the basketball and hockey programs seem to be in similar stale states. Just like FSU needed to part with Bowden, UM will have to negotiate these delicate situations. I do not mean to equate JB with Bowden, nor would I equate him with Hoke, but can you imagine what our football future would look like if Brandon had not fallen so far off the rails and had gotten to keep Hoke? JH changed the entire culture, especially recruiting. UM basketball culture needs a similar overhaul IMO. I don't think Manuel will reach that conclusion after the season. I also do not expect any Big Ten basketball titles anytime soon. Thank you JB for the fantastic rebuild. It's time for new blood, and a new approach.

Ty Butterfield

February 4th, 2017 at 8:30 PM ^

The bigger question is how did Beilein get so lucky for basically 2 recruiting classes? People would not shut up about Beilein's system but the truth is it only really works when you have a team full of NBA or at the very least fringe NBA players. I really want to know what Beilein is looking at when he recruits. This diamond in the rough shit isn't working. It really seems like Irvin and Walton have actually gotten worse. How can Warde be ok with this team being a complete embarrassment? This game was it. Season is done.

stephenrjking

February 4th, 2017 at 9:13 PM ^

No he isn't. He's historically a cyclical coach that makes a solid sweet sixteen run every couple of years with program guys. 

The problem here isn't that he's returning to his "historical level" on the bubble. It's that instead of producing a solid sweet sixteen team with his experienced players (Irvin and Walton this year, those guys as juniors plus senior Levert last year) Michigan is struggling to make the tournament.

These two years are seasons where, based on Beilein's macro strategies, Michigan should be a solid tournament team at the 4-6 seed level with some young guys that contribute a couple of things and some experienced guys that overcome the lack of blue-chip talent with experience and coached ability. 

In principle I think Michigan basketball can be a success if it achieves that level. Periodic solid teams, a year or two here and there where the team is irrelevant and rebuilding.

The problem is that these are the seasons to succeed, and Beilein has struck out. If Michigan is a solid 4-6 either last year or this, nobody thinks this thread really needs to exist. But they aren't and it does. And though I gripe about tone I can't argue that this isn't a reasonable discussion.

pescadero

February 5th, 2017 at 6:08 AM ^

" He's historically a cyclical coach that makes a solid sweet sixteen run every couple of years with program guys" In 14(soon to be 15) years coaching a P5 school, he's made the sweet sixteen 4 times... 2 years in a row at WVU and two in a row at Michigan. That isn't every couple years. He's a bubble coach who has had a couple years of catching lightning in a bottle at each school.

stephenrjking

February 4th, 2017 at 9:01 PM ^

"So lucky."

So Beilein really has no idea what he's doing, he just got lucky? Isn't it possible that his philosophy and coaching were fine, but that he struck out and/or failed to develop the next class of talent? This is what some of us "not so fast" people mean. Not that Beilein needs another three-year contract, but that people are acting like two consecutive deep NCAA tournament runs were a mistake because Michigan isn't that good anymore.

C'mon.

Irvin was Mr. Basketball in Indiana, and Walton looked like a future star his freshman year (I laughed darkly watching the MSU game when the announcers talked about his great game at MSU his freshman year, because that was pretty much the highlight of his career). 

Both recruiting and development since then have been a disaster. Tellingly, guys in the program have regressed or stayed stagnant. Walton is good, but not a worldbeater--if you had told me that Walton would start a full season as a senior, I'd expect Michigan to compete for the B1G title. Aubrey Dawkins (remember him?) looked set to break out last season, and instead was a mess. Kam Chatman hit one shot of any significance in two years despite being a top 50 recruit. 

Oddly, this doesn't necessarily apply to Irvin, who has grown every season and would be a perfectly acceptable success story... if he weren't expected to be the primary offensive option for the team. He should be a complementary piece, but there is no Burke/Stauskas alpha to his beta.

I don't think that asking "how did he manage Burke/Stauskas/THJ/GRIII/McGary" is a productive question. He did it. He did a lot of stuff right. 

It's more productive to ask if he is still doing that stuff right, and the answer is, apparently not.

Maynard

February 5th, 2017 at 12:25 AM ^

Most everything you say is pretty spot on. My issue has never been with those points you are bringing up here. The issue is that I can't stand the style of basketball we have. It doesn't match up with the type of players you have available to you around Detroit and the Midwest in general. It's soft, relies on 3 point shooting (fine if you're Golden State, not if you're a Big Ten team) too much in my opinion, lacks rebounding in a conference full of rebounding-strong teams, and most importantly, IS NOT FUN TO WATCH. I can't wait for the program to change and bring some much needed attitude to a place known as white collar.

pescadero

February 5th, 2017 at 6:14 AM ^

"So Beilein really has no idea what he's doing, he just got lucky?" In terms of on the floor coaching - he knows what he is doing. In terms of recruiting talent to compete at a high lever - he just got lucky a couple times. 2004-06 at WVU and 2012-14 at Michigan were Beilein getting lucky in recruiting.

MichiganMan14

February 4th, 2017 at 8:31 PM ^

Lost the last 2 against OSU and the last 5 vs. MSU?   Two years ago you knew this was coming if you were awake.  All this losing is just numbing and Michigan basketball does not matter nationally anymore.   This is the worst Ohio State basketball team in the last 10 years and they just kicked our ass in our gym for the last 30 minutes of the game.  It shouldnt have even been close.  Beilein does not coach or promote the style of basketball that wins anymore.  Weak on bigs and over-dependence on the 3-ball.  I feel bad for Derrick Walton.  He is the sole reason to even watch this team.  That kid plays with heart and passion.  

Year of Revenge II

February 4th, 2017 at 8:34 PM ^

It is time for a fresh start. Give JB his due, but we need a coach who can recruit, inspire defense, and install an offense that does not depend on threes. Our best rebounder is a guard?

Stuck in Lansing

February 4th, 2017 at 8:38 PM ^

The question that needs to be answered with regard to Beilein is who do we think we are as a program. My thoughts are that being a football school would prevent us from ever being truly at the top level, but I can't see why from a resources perspective why we can't be roughly MSU level. By that I mean in the tournament every year. Sweet Sixteen every 2-4 years and be a legitimate threat to win the tournament once or twice a decade. I don't see how he can consistently get us past the first weekend of the tournament. He gets one more year to win a tournament game or call it a career.

Wolverine Devotee

February 4th, 2017 at 8:41 PM ^

I'm done with this staff. Problem is, I know for a fact Warde won't do anything this year. So we have another year of this shit ahead. Still will go to games and support the team, but we will be a bubble team at best as long this low level recruiting of "nice guys" continues with this staff.

Hard-Baughlls

February 4th, 2017 at 8:44 PM ^

yet somehow is a #1 or #2 option on this team?

Beilein teams are always Charmin soft...this one just also happens to be less talented than most of his other groups.

Time for a change.

Avon Barksdale

February 4th, 2017 at 8:44 PM ^

Feels like the basketball program is stuck in the mud. The performances are lackluster. Recruiting is downright awful. The young talent has looked fairly talentless. Incredible that the University of Michigan is struggling to win championships in football, basketball, hockey, AND baseball.

Hard-Baughlls

February 4th, 2017 at 8:49 PM ^

Unless you want to bet against Harbaugh - a man that wins everywhere and just recruited two straight top 5 classes. The past decade was indeed brutal though.

Basketball is on a steep decline and it's sad...Beilein is a good man, just can't recruit with the big boys.

I don't know enough abou the other sports except that they are not winning.

shawnducati

February 4th, 2017 at 8:46 PM ^

...it's not about assistant coaches...It's about the HEAD COACH. Saban loses assitants all the time...Harbaugh does...Meyer does...Mike K does...its all about the CULTURE and the philosophy of the head coach.

Beilien is soft, we have a soft finesse culture and no matter what assistants he changes.

TIME FOR HIM TO GO. PERIOD.

 

 

 

 

 

3659

Clarence Boddicker

February 4th, 2017 at 8:50 PM ^

More dull, slow, clumsy basketball. Players recruited for their shooting skills, but who nonetheless shoot poorly and lack the athleticism to play d, get rebounds, or do much else. Watching this team is enough to make you want to chew your own guts out. Fire Beilein!

Fab and Fresh

March 14th, 2017 at 3:59 PM ^

I'll go ahead and publicly shame myself for this post. Basketball is a process and Beilein has shown the ability to make the most of that process from beginning to end on a consistent basis. This post was short-sighted and shameful.

username03

February 4th, 2017 at 8:50 PM ^

If we are going to pretend that The University of Michigan basketball team is somehow handicapped when it comes to bringing in high level coaches and players, that the best we can hope for is the scrappy underdog team full of players like the hero in a 80s after school special, can we at least get the effort level of said scrappy team? Can we at least see a consistently high effort level? At least at home, against your rival, in a must win game?

Matt EM

February 4th, 2017 at 8:52 PM ^

The inability to obtain a single player that can create shots off the dribble from the 2013-2016 classes is the reason the team is struggling at this point. That said, I do think Beilein has upgraded the raw talent in the 17 class with Poole and Livers, but I doubt either of those prospects will be instant impact types. If JB can land an athletic player with motor or a shot creator to finish out 17, or get both in 18, it likely changes the trajectory of the team. Really hoping we get seriously involved with Greg Elliott. He's got all the tools to help the team as a 2 way player. In terms of Beilein's job, we have to let the season play out and evaluate him at that point. Does no good to fire him now, because we aren't going to obtain a suitable replacement, and it creates uncertainty in terms of recruiting

Eyzwidopn

February 4th, 2017 at 8:55 PM ^

Yes, Becky Hammon! Currently 3-year assistant coach for the San Antonio Spurs championship organization under one of the greatest coaches ever. Her basketball resume as a player speaks for itself - voted one of the WNBA's Top 15 players of all time - highlighted by her smart, aggressive style of play. She knows the game and if Greg Popovich thinks her basketball IQ is good enough to be an assistant coach in the NBA and coach the Spurs summer D-league team, I would like to see her bring what she's learned under defensive minded Popovich to the head coaching ranks... for the UofM Men's Basketball Team. Fire away!

Eyzwidopn

February 4th, 2017 at 9:50 PM ^

But if the hypothetical became true, do you think the splash of the hire and subsequent overwhelming media attention might actually attract some high profile players? On the merits alone, Hammon can boast NBA coaching experience; NBA contacts; direct knowledge/experience of what it takes to play for and be a championship organization; and she's already coached grown men.

Hard-Baughlls

February 4th, 2017 at 8:56 PM ^

We do not look like a D1 team compared to these teams.  I get that they are both top 25 teams, but just a few years ago we were at this level.  It's not even close right now.