MSU Game Last Second Rule Question

Submitted by JohnnyV123 on

Saw nothing about this and sorry if it's somewhere in the snowflakes threads but I was wondering about the onsides kick at the end of the MSU game.

Basic question is....since there was only one second left on the clock did UM even have to put anyone out there to try and grab the kick? I thought at least one second had to run off the clock if anyone touched the ball so if MSU recovered it with no Michigan people trying to grab it game over anyways.

I also thought you could not advance the ball so if MSU recovered it anywhere except the endzone it would not have mattered.....and I guess follow up can you score a TD on an "onsides" kickoff that you recover in the opposing team's endzone? Could we have put only Peppers and Lewis on the field to down it  in case it got that far and end the game?

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DrAwkward

October 31st, 2016 at 12:13 PM ^

Several people, including MaizeAndBlueWahoo, correctly stated that MSU could have recovered with 1 second remaining as long as no Michigan player touched the ball first.

Since no one cited the actual rule, I decided to look it up.

http://www.americanfootball.ru/Sport/Rule/2015_football_rules.pdf

The link is to the 2015 rule book, but the rules applicable to this question have not changed.

Look at Rule 6, Articles 3 & 6.

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Bambi

October 31st, 2016 at 11:14 AM ^

The clock doesn't run if the kicking team recovers an onside kick. I'm on mobile so I can't link it, but there's a video of Alabama's onside from the title game against Clemson on YouTube. Before the kick the clock is on 10:34, after the recovery the clock is on 10:34. If MSU recovers that kick, they have a one play Hail Mary to win it, assuming they kick the extra point.

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truferblue22

October 31st, 2016 at 11:31 AM ^

I still don't understand the point of that decision. Like not even if I try and put myself in his angry ass shoes. Why end the game on that play when you could hope for two fluke miracles + shit refs in back-to-back years? Was he trying to make the score look closer or something? It absolutely made 0 sense to me, whatsoever.

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reddogrjw

October 31st, 2016 at 11:18 AM ^

when the opposing player did not kneel and tossed the ball towards the ref

 

Sparty blew any chance with the 2-pointer fiasco but they should have kicked it then pooch kicked it so it bounced around towards the end zone

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Shadowban

October 31st, 2016 at 11:32 AM ^

I was argiung this point yesterday on the Dantonio second guessing thread, but was shot down.  That in my mind was made the decision to go for 2 so unforgivable on Dantonio's part, and such an epic example of hubris.  Going for two was completely unnecessary, and cost them the only possible (albeit slim) chanced they had to win that game.  So unbelievably stupid that I question his mental state.  Seriously. He had forever to think about that move with the timeout we took.  

 

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Pepto Bismol

October 31st, 2016 at 11:49 AM ^

"So unbelievably stupid that I question his mental state."

Agree 100%.  He was so mad at Michigan that he stopped thinking rationally and cost his team any chance of winning the game.  That's a really bad look.  If I were an MSU fan, I would be irate. 

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almostXavier

October 31st, 2016 at 2:07 PM ^

So obviously the correct thing for Michigan to do on the onsides kick would be to actually recover the ball, but then intentionally fumble, allowing MSU to recover and advance for a TD that would still not win the game? Thereby reinforcing that going for 2 was just silliness?

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EastCoast Esq.

October 31st, 2016 at 11:48 AM ^

Here is the rule book:

http://amarefs.org/FR16.pdf

Under Rule 4, Article 3, Subsection (e), it states:

"A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead: When a player of the kicking team catches or recovers any free kick or a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone."

I don't think any time would have come off the clock.

Dantonio fumbled their only chance at a miracle comeback.

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Dano1984

October 31st, 2016 at 11:54 AM ^

yard line. Recovered with no time taken off the clock.

 

And run a play deep in our territory with one second left.

 

If there's no one on the field they can just squib it to our side of the field? Interesting scenario. I guess I'm not sure if the second would run off if they recoverd it.

 

Interesting. 

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Swazi

October 31st, 2016 at 12:14 PM ^

Who cares? The moment they touch the ball the clock runs, and they can't advance the ball on an onside kick.

Dantonio did the 2 point just to make the score look not as bad as it was. He admitted the game was over.



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tsabrak

October 31st, 2016 at 12:15 PM ^

Not worthy of it's own thread, so I am throwing this here-

Last year, as I watched the game and a little piece of me died inside, I had played football "squares" for my kids softball team.  I went home depressed, and at like 3am I woke up suddenly and realized that the final punt play had changed the score (I hadn't even been paying attention at that point) and I won the pot for the football squares.


This year, I played again for the same fundraiser and as Mork was lined up to do the unthinkable with 1 second left I realized that I had Michigan "0" and MSU BOTH "3" and "5".  I.e. If MSU, for SOME reason, actually went for 2 I was going to win the jackpot again if they scored or if they were not successful.  And then Jabrill did his thing and no money for me.

I can tell you without hesitancy that I'll take the result from this year 100% of the time!

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VicTorious1

October 31st, 2016 at 12:18 PM ^

Based on the NCAA 2015 Rules and Interpretations, MSU wouldn't have been able to do anything upon recovery after their kickoff and the time would have expired.  The relevant sections of the rules are listed below.  Please note that there may have been revisions in the 2016 Rules and Interpretations, but I'm not paying $8 to find out.

Rule 3. (Periods, Time Factors and Substitutions); Section 3. (Timeouts: Starting and Stopping the Clock); Article 2. (Starting and Stopping the Clock)

a.  Free Kick. After the ball is free-kicked, the game clock shall be started on an official’s signal when the ball is legally touched in the field of play, or when it crosses the goal line after being touched legally by Team B in its end zone. It is subsequently stopped on an official’s signal when the ball is dead by rule.

Rule 6. (Kicks); Section 1 (Free Kicks); Article 3 (Touching and Recovery of a Free Kick)

a. No Team A player may touch a free-kicked ball until after:

1.       It touches a Team B player (Exception: Rules 6-1-4 and 6-5-1-b);

2.       2. It breaks the plane of and remains beyond Team B’s restraining line (Exception: Rule 6-4-1) (A.R. 2-12-5-I); or

3.       3. It touches any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B’s restraining line.

Thereafter, all players of Team A become eligible to touch, recover or catch the kick.

b. Any other touching by Team A is illegal touching, a violation that, when the ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege of taking the ball at the spot of the violation.

c. If there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team, or if there are offsetting fouls, the illegal touching privilege is canceled (A.R. 6-1-3-I).

d. Illegal touching in Team A’s end zone is ignored.

Rule 6. (Kicks); Section 1 (Free Kicks); Article 6 (Free Kick Caught or Recovered)

a. If a free kick is caught or recovered by a player of the receiving team, the ball continues in play (Exceptions: Rules 4-1-3-g, 6-1-7, and 6-5-1 and 2). If caught or recovered by a player of the kicking team, the ball becomes dead. The ball belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot, unless the kicking team is in legal possession when the ball is declared dead. In the latter case, the ball belongs to the kicking team.

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Pepto Bismol

October 31st, 2016 at 12:29 PM ^

From your post:

1) The clock doesn't start until the ball is touched.

2) The ball is dead when recovered by the kicking team. 

That means the clock would start and stop simultaneously on a clean MSU recovery.  That is BOTH the point at which it was (1) touched, and (2) possessed by the kicking team. No time would elapse. 

I don't understand the difficulty of this concept and am apparently talking to the wall, so I am leaving this thread.  Best of luck to all.

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Magnus

October 31st, 2016 at 1:30 PM ^

...and that scenario is a very, very rare occurrence. It's very difficult to let a ball go 10 yards, for the kicking team to catch it cleanly, and to come down with possession before any time realistically comes off the clock. There's almost always some sort of bobble, especially when the kicking team recovers.

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Pepto Bismol

October 31st, 2016 at 2:12 PM ^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIb_O4cDEXI

Jump to the 2 hour 5 minute mark, if you will... 2:05:00

2:07 on the clock.  Auburn recovers the onside kick clean.  And because nobody can ever remember basic onside kick rules (including guys that run their own football blog), the Auburn player keeps running and the timekeeper starts ticking off seconds as he advances.

Then the referee steps in and applies very basic written rules.  He returns the ball to the spot where it was recovered (because you can't advance it), and he asks the timekeeper to return the clock to 2:07, because no time elapses on a clean onside recovery.

Gasp!

This.  Is.  Not.  Rare. 

I Googled "Onside kick recovery".  This was about the 3rd or 4th one I clicked on.  This happens all the time.  And when it does, the rules would allow for no time to elapse.

Now go back and watch the onside kick from Saturday and tell me that MSU guy couldn't have caught that ball clean on the sideline to give MSU a hail mary with :01 on the clock. 

<takes bow>

Thank you.  Have a great day.

 

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Pepto Bismol

October 31st, 2016 at 3:06 PM ^

The point is this:  If you go to 2:37:47 of this video, Donnie Corley has the onside kick bounce up untouched and go right through his arms out of bounds.  If he catches that ball, no time will elapse (like in every other video I've linked here), there would be :01 on the clock, it would be MSU ball and Michigan State would have had one play from Michigan's 44 yard line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC1tgnN9k6A

 

If someone wants to argue about that, then they'll be wrong, but feel free.

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Pepto Bismol

October 31st, 2016 at 2:44 PM ^

Here's one from waaaaaaaaay back...in last years CFP championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-iEsfL4Qk

 

Edit:  Forgot to remind you to watch the clock.  --  Watch the clock.

 

Double Edit:  The more important point is that MARK DANTONIO didn't know this either, and it caused him to piss away a potential last gasp effort to actually win Saturday's game.  He's dumb.  He looks dumb and he should feel dumb.  That's all that matters.

 

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VicTorious1

October 31st, 2016 at 2:42 PM ^

The clock starts when the ball is legally touched.  It is dead when recovered.  So it depends on if the ball was touched vs. recovered.  If it is recovered by State then the ball is dead and no time elapses.  If it was touched legally by State or UM then the time begins and it runs out.  Once recovered by State, it is a dead ball.

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