The Impermissible Scheme
The Big10 suspension document is not about the Master of Disguise moment, but leans heavily on "the impermissible scheme is proven" and our failure to deny wrongdoing.
I do not understand the "impermissible scheme" , would ask this Board to help me understand the violations.
Buying tickets for a competitors games and sending "lay" individuals to shoot cell phone video from the stands seems to comply with rules. My understanding is the NCAA has already decided the "recording is not scouting" issue, and third party video sales are legal. So unless Stallions, or other Michigan affiliated individuals went to games, I am not seeing the big issue.
I also would like your thoughts on weather OSU/Rutgers provided in person scouting services to Purdue, when they (allegedly) supplied Michigan signals and info gleaned from playing us. Should the Big10 be suspending OSU/Rutgers coaches?
November 14th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
The latter point is irrelevant. Violating the T&C of a ticket is not the same as violating an NCAA/B1G rule. That might be enough to get the person recording kicked or banned from the stadium (assuming it's actually considered commercial use, which is debatable), but that's all.
November 14th, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
The rules may not define that, but this is clearly not that.
How is something "clear" if not defined in the rules? This is ambiguous and open to interpretation.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:28 AM ^
Let's start with a) it was really fucking dumb. And b) dumb as in inviting people who hate you to kick you dumb. C), for me is how the stuff was processed: Who used it and how; who knew. 'Other people do it' feels great, but given b), isn't likely to get you off the hook.
It shouldn't threaten your season, especially given c). But c), I think, weighs over this more than most people wish to acknowledge. Let's say Jim was afforded plausible deniability, or better didn't know (I feel that's likely); fantastic. But it's just not like there are that many layers of gauze between Stalions and coaches if he's chatting with them on the sideline. I don't think--have not seen it demo'd--that that buys you much of an advantage. But 'we got little or nothing out of it' isn't an excuse either, especially given b).
I 100 percent think that we should beat everyone over the head with what we know about other transgressions--that's the PR piece. And I 100 percent think that suspending Harbaugh on the front end is REALLY STUPID, because their toes are going to be held to the fire (I hope) forever more. For every strand of official stupid that unfolds. A lot of minor transgressions should/could now mean punishments before they're fully examined. That's not how justice is supposed to work.
But c), I think it's likely, is a thing. The thing hanging over.
November 14th, 2023 at 2:11 PM ^
But the advantage is only relevant vis-a-vis to your opponent. If Michigan's opponents have been sharing our actual signs for years (as it appears) then the benefit of CS's actions, even if shared with JH, are effectively zero. So it is a rule violation without any impact, and the perpetrator is gone.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
I think what Stalions did was perfectly legitimate within the context of sign-stealing in college football and the bylaw in question, outside of him potentially going to a game on his own.
I think the main issue that opposing football coaches have with Stalions' method is that its different than what they view as "legitimate" cheating.
If Team A gets a full scouting report from Team B before they play Team C based upon Team B's in person scouting, that would be advanced in-person scouting. But its fine, because coaches are used to it.
But if Team C simply cuts out the middle man by having someone record the sideline of Team A and then deciphers the code on its own, that's a problem not because its any more against the actual rule than the first scenario I laid out, but because it feels more illegal, even if its technically less illegal.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
I don't believe for a moment that opposing coaches had a problem with the methods Stalions used. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Stalions was just dong what his peers on other teams were doing, including sending people to video future opponents' sidelines.
Stalions didn't try to hide what he was doing because it was not against the rules. The rules prohibit in person advance scouting, and there's no evidence that Stalions did any of that in person.
No, the opposing coaches are after Harbaugh, and getting the Big Ten Commissioner to simply declare the "scheme" as "impermissible" (though being careful to avoid saying why it is impermissible because, obviously, it just is!) is just a tool to attack Harbaugh with.
The fact that the "impermissible scheme" is, in fact, permissible is irrelevant to all concerned bar the Michigan side.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:53 PM ^
This was discussed on another thread but I don't think it's become general knowledge yet: the pictures shown in the evidence presented by Michigan that OSU was able to get our signs from broadcast footage included said broadcast footage, but they also included pictures taken inside Michigan Stadium during the 2022 Hawaii game. They're pictures of the replay shown on the scoreboard.
Somebody was in the stadium taking video in person, and that video wound up at OSU. It was either in-person scouting, or the not-quite-in-person scouting Scalions is accused of.
November 14th, 2023 at 1:34 PM ^
And astonishingly this fact has not been leaked by the Big Ten or massively broadcast across the sports media world. I wonder how that happens ...
November 14th, 2023 at 1:50 PM ^
Have any of the journalists followed up with Urban Meyer about his coach whose sole job it was to scout Michigan? I'd be interested in the details behind that.
November 14th, 2023 at 1:54 PM ^
People on Twitter are claiming those images came from the All-22 video, in which each play starts with a scoreboard close-up to show the score, time, and down & distance. The All-22 video is a perfectly acceptable source from which to decode signals.
November 14th, 2023 at 2:11 PM ^
Thanks, that would explain why Michigan didn't mention it.
November 14th, 2023 at 2:54 PM ^
Where is all the dirt/proof of other teams doing shady stuff that we heard UM was gonna drop? Why has there not been articles on that stuff? If UM has it, why are they not feeding it to the media ?
November 14th, 2023 at 2:59 PM ^
Because it possibly doesn’t exist?
November 14th, 2023 at 3:44 PM ^
Or, if we hope to move to another conference, having blown up your last one on the way out the door might not endear us to any potential new ones.
November 15th, 2023 at 9:29 AM ^
What is “scouting”? If it involves some degree of analysis and judgment, then simply pointing an iPhone at the sidelines may not be scouting at all. If the person pointing the camera is not on staff and is providing no analysis but only footage, how is Rule 11.6.1 violated? Unfortunately, the NCAA rules discuss scouting a fair amount but never define the term.
November 14th, 2023 at 1:25 PM ^
this seems like the key issue the NCAA will have to decide in determining whether or not CS's actions constitute a rules violation. (CMU sideline stunt aside). And if they decide against M, seems like the key issue M's lawyers will argue in their response to any potential NoA.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
Impermissible Scheme would be a great indie band name, by the way.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:19 AM ^
Can we get a banner change to confirm that Michigan is America's team?
November 14th, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
I would t mind an “America’s Team” shirt where the Ms are block. Maybe toss in some tasteful Stars and Stripes.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:30 PM ^
Maize stripes of course
November 14th, 2023 at 11:19 AM ^
I keep using a buckeyes own analysis that says the scheme was not illegal https://247sports.com/college/ohio-state/board/120/Contents/ttuns-potential-infractions-explained-219156809/
November 14th, 2023 at 11:26 AM ^
I can't tell from this thread when the posts were written, but it certainly doesn't appear to be in reference to Michigan...
November 14th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
It was written not much after Erik’s own analysis. Seems like bit could have been partially borrowed from it. I’ll check if something changed since I’ve been pasting it for awhile I haven’t looked at it again but it literally mentioned Michigan in the title unless it’s changed since last night.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
Actually it says ttun
November 14th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
So a Buckeye wrote a long post on a Buckeye forum stating that what Michigan is accused of doing isn't actually illegal?
November 14th, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
I'm not going to click it for fear of my head exploding, by just by reading the URL you can tell it's in reference to us (remember they're children so TTUN = us).
November 14th, 2023 at 11:20 AM ^
Obligatory - the whole thing is a witchhunt of course.
But, I don't think the whole 'they were just laypersons' concept flies here. Whether they were getting a paycheck from Umich or not, they were agents of someone who was and were acting on his behalf. You don't get out of doing something 'illegal' by just having an intermediary involved.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:37 AM ^
Who defines "agent" and "third party servicer"? Does it need to be an incorporated business? What about independent contractors?
November 14th, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^
That’s really a legal question and it depends on the nature of the relationship. It’s not as simple as having a W2 on file or not. It depends on exactly how much control UM/Stalions exercised over the actions of the filmers- even if the relationship is contractual or informal, a direct agency relationship can be established if the contracting party exercises a sufficient amount of control over the contracted party’s activity.
November 14th, 2023 at 3:47 PM ^
People who bail at halftime because it was raining don't seem like they are highly controlled by the person paying them.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
I don't believe that you are correct here. "In person" does not mean "using an agent in your stead." If the judge tells you to attend a hearing in person, you cannot send only your lawyer and claim to be appearing "in person" because your lawyer is an agent of yours and acting on your behalf. You will be making that argument through the bars of your jail cell.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:13 PM ^
Well it's the NCAA so what their rules say doesn't really matter much in the end, but I thought the point being argued was basically that in-person scouting is illegal by university staff so Connor paying other people to do it may not technically be against the rules.
Now the NCAA is dumb and inconsistent and wants to punish Harbaugh so I am quite certain theyre still gonna try to act like we broke the rule since Connor violated the 'spirit' of it or something
November 14th, 2023 at 3:49 PM ^
It makes sense, since the rule's stated purpose was financial. If his whole scheme cost about 15K, then that is peanuts, even to the smallest programs. It wouldn't cause the kind of inequality with which the rule was concerned.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
By the letter of the law you could make the case that Michigan did not scout in-person. But the NCAA (and Big Ten) gives themselves "spirit of the rule" wiggle room to say essentially "well you know what we meant".
They don't have to win the argument, they control the ruling.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:33 AM ^
Therein lies the entire rub.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:35 PM ^
It is, and I would worry about that if this ended up in trial. But I do think there's enough grey area in the NCAA rule for us to muck this up with legal action (real or threatened) and negotiate a settlement that avoids serious punishment. It would be a huge can of worms for them to try to codify that grey area on the fly, and I think there's a reasonable deal to be made.
Obviously the Big Ten is off the rails and already gave us a serious punishment, but I at least think we can cut it off there depending on what happens with the injunction.
November 14th, 2023 at 3:39 PM ^
Even if all of this is actually against NCAA rules (which I don't tend to think it is), aren't these just level 2 or 3 violations? If so there shouldn't be much of a punishment even if everything alleged is true AND found to violate NCAA rules.
November 14th, 2023 at 3:50 PM ^
Offer to pay a fine, if and only if the proceeds are used for helmet comms. And that it is a final resolution.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:39 AM ^
Arbitrary justice has always worked well for society in the past.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:14 PM ^
Thats the helpless feeling in this. Michigan can get the best lawyers in the world, but since its a private org does it even matter? The NCAA can just do whatever they want and they clearly want blood
November 14th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
It is true that the NCAA can claim that spirit of the rule against in person scouting was that all scouting is prohibited, but that's a tough sell. The Infractions Appeal Committee is independent of the NCAA president.
November 14th, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
I don't really understand UM fans clamoring for "Stalions did nothing wrong". It's pretty clearly against the rule. I don't care if there's a lawyery pedantic way of explaining that Stalions took advantage of 3 loopholes to avoid being technically in violation of anything. He was either supremely confident he'd get away with this very tenuous approach or extremely dumb in covering his tracks.
I thought we all (including Brian) agreed that Stalions did something wrong, but that it was just Stalions, and that it never made that much of a competitive difference, so any punishment needs to fit the crime, and only after the NCAA is done with its investigation.
Oh and also everybody else shares signals in-advance, so maybe somebody should look into that...
November 14th, 2023 at 1:15 PM ^
There are two *different* discussions about what he "did".
The first is whether it was wrong to have third party persons attend games and obtain video - that may or may not be against the ncaa rules... and the argument over the fine technical details **absolutely matters**. Remember that UNC was able to avoid any ncaa punishment over fake classes because what they did was technically not against ncaa rules. (Also, Brian may have said he was in the wrong, but the university has not admitted this - we know this from the reponse letter submitted to the Big Ten, which left open that avenue of defense.)
The second discussion is that he "did" all that... but without running it by anyone else at the university or checking the validity of his "loophole". That was absolutely idiotic and has caused far more trouble than this would have been otherwise.
November 14th, 2023 at 3:18 PM ^
Hey guys, NCAA, Big Ten, OSU or MSU fans real quick question.
Show of hands of those that have seen the video footage obtained by people in these seats? Also who have matched up these people, their phones, and these recordings to show they are from these exact people. Also who has seen the pictures of people in his seats and can verify that he paid those exact same people.
For any of this to stick people have to have ALL of this evidence in front of them. Again I ask Big Ten you got all of this together for this suspension? No? Then this is FUCKED. and to be honest im not sure they could even show cause Stallions at this point.
November 14th, 2023 at 3:55 PM ^
No person at a college football game has ever sat in a seat other than their own, right? I really do want to see the recordings. Are they actually useful? Probably not as useful as having other coaches scout for you.
November 14th, 2023 at 6:28 PM ^
Remember, there is no rule against sign stealing so there is no 'spirit of the rule' with regards to don't steal signs. The spirit of this rule is that it's too expensive for cheap schools, however Michigan spent 0 dollars on this, so we broke neither the spirit nor the letter of this rule.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
From all the legal scholars' opinions around here who have meticulously reviewed the bylaws, only two things are violations it seems: 1) in-person scouting of an opponent during the season before playing them 2) Recording during the game to gain advantage.
Technically, CMU game in-person scouting by CS, allegedly, would be a violation. By the letter of the law, every thing else is not. Even CMU scenario is not proven.
We all know this is not about competitive advantage. This is about cost.
Media personnel is full of crap. Nobody challenges them and nobody gives a shit about being honest. It is the world we live in. If all of this goes to court, UM can pick it part. Alas, I am not sure if it will ever get there and the damage is already done.
This is a pure hit job and a cancel culture. Morals and ethics be damned.
November 14th, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
The b1g only cared about punishing Harbaugh, they did it any way they could, by pretending, and then declaring that they had arbitrarily determined that 3rd party filming WAS in-person scouting, regardless of what the ncaa ultimately says or does. They don't care if no rule was violated, they just want to get Harbaugh.
November 14th, 2023 at 3:22 PM ^
So the big ten is in an office and in front of them they have-
1. Connors receipts of his paid tickets
2. Names of the people he sent there and receipts of payment to them.
3. Pictures of EXACTLY these people with cell phones out recording.
4. Evidence of these recordings on Connors laptop and also proof that it came from these exact people.
Hmm anyone think there are a few pieces they filled the blanks in on?
November 14th, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
I think the Big 10 assertation is that advanced scouting of the opponents signals was against their very broad and nearly all encompassing "Sportsmanship" Rule. I mean really, doesn't almost any violation of the rules become a Sportsmanship issue?
The NCAA will call it Advanced Scouting while making no distinction between Stalions and his agents, as this was in their minds, a concerted effort on his part to make this happen.
I am super interested in all this "evidence" from Stadium security cams. What does it show? How clearly does it show it? We've heard a lot of talk about what teams have, but for some reason, no one has given us an example.