I belong to a teacher union. I think it has to do with Betsy D being on the trump administration, who is a big time school choice advocate. She supports using state funds in charter schools, who aren't always transparent with how they use per-pupil funding.
That and they think they might die, which is mostly valid if they are older or have comorbidities.
Also, it's pretty easy to sit at home and do a fraction of the work and zoom in plcs a few times a month.
As a teacher, teacher unions are the biggest waste of time and money. They never do shit for teachers, yet champion themselves as heros. If they did so much for teachers, why does our pay still suck, where is our pensions, why is sick time being cut. Clowns at my school are always so upset when I say no every year, yet I have more money in my pay check and my fellow union teachers get nothing out of their $180+ a month fan club membership.
He may be out there sometimes but his post isn’t wrong. They won’t start school until police are defunded and school of choice/charter schools are taken out. Really care about the kids huh LA.
I think my state of New York is probably heading the same direction. I don't have a better solution to offer, but a lot of families rely on schools for childcare and for meals so there are wide effects to keeping schools closed. In my wife's district (rural, poorer), not every kid even has internet access at home so how are they gonna learn? It's a mess that has no good solution
"As a public health leader and grandfather, I believe that having schools closed due to #COVID19 is a greater public health threat to children than having the schools reopen. I am confident we can open schools safely in partnership with local jurisdictions."
Robert Redfield, CDC director.
23% of the population of CA is people under 17, that is roughly 10 million people. Number of Covid deaths under 17? Zero. But these decisions are being guided "by the science."
I know there is a lot of concern about sending kids back to school. One of the concerns is not with students getting sick, but with the students passing the virus on to others who are higher risk.
As a teacher, one of my biggest concerns is with teachers over the age of 55 who have health concerns. In my building, I know of three teachers who are very high risk for various reasons. One of these just returned to school in January after beating breast cancer.
Some districts are placing these high risk teachers as the ones who may work with students who choose the on-line only model, but unfortunatly, some of the teachers who would probably need to stay home are also not the best at using technology. I wish districts would let teachers know what the distance learning plan is to be so we can learn how to best serve our students.
Yep, my wife has the same concerns. To be in the schools is to basically be exposed to every family in town to some degree. She also mentioned most of the subs they rely on are retired teachers who aren't going to want to come in and potentially get themselves killed. No good solution
That is not the issue. The issue is the percentage of teachers, admin and coaches that are susceptible, and that children will be silent carriers and bring back the virus to their families that may have susceptible members. Don’t get me wrong, I would prefer my kids to learn in a classroom, but this argument that “kids don’t get sick“ is not the reason.
All the current facts are against this decision. The data showing risk for children is against it. The data showing kids aren't typically spreading it is against it. Scott Gottlieb, the American and Canadian pediatric associations, psychologists,The CDC, all agree that distance learning is substandard, harms kids, and in particular, harms poor children. They all agree schools should open, just with differing conditions. This decision is triumph of fear over facts, over the current science, over the experience in Europe, and rational thought.
We're entering a world were Las Vegas (not in the same state as Los Angeles, of course, but it may as well be a suburb of LA) is open, but schools are not.
That says something, I suppose. One could argue that BOTH should be in the same state (be it open or closed). But Vegas open and schools closed sounds like the plot of a dystopic science-fiction novel.
----------------
Another thing to consider: why do we even have public schools in the first place?
The answer, of course, is that public education provides, as much as is theoretically possible, everyone an equal opportunity to become educated and reach their potential. Its aim is to reduce inequality.
Unfortunately, an online education increases inequality. In many cities, up to a third of children don't have reliable access to a computer or the internet. They'll be falling behind. And those are the ones who are in most need of something that attempts to balance the playing field.
-------------------
I don't know if I'd go ALL the way in this argument - but I could theoretically argue that if everyone doesn't get an equal education opportunity, nobody should. E.g., no online schools at all - no public school at all until the buildings themselves reopen.
lets use our favorite sport Football as an example. Assuming the QB is an important position, should we rotate players from the d-line to play an, because everything is equal? Should Michigan lower their standards for admin to make it equal?
Of course. There are always variables that are diverse, no matter how much we try to make one variable near-constant.
I will say, I just got in a discussion somewhere else --- and I think the argument "since an online-only education actually serves to increase inequalities, we shouldn't have ANY public schooling outside of a building environment" is stronger than I originally thought.
It would be interesting to see a public official or politician actually take that tact. Because implicit in that opinion is that teachers wouldn't get paid until we're back in the buildings. Would that change teachers' opinions?
I wish there was an easy solution(s); forcing schools to fully reopen, though, is NOT the answer.
I'm not an educator and also no longer have to worry about the education my own 3 kids. But I do have a granddaughter who lived under my roof for 8 years, making me very concerned with how her learning will proceed. She's a bright kid, mostly A's and the rest B's as a 4th and 5th grader, and she's highly interested in going to U of M and putting to good use her skills in math and the sciences.
(edit: She's also had asthma problems for several years. Another thing to complicate things for her mom on the decision of whether or not returning her to school.)
So yeah, I truly wish schools could all reopen on time and more importantly, stay open while at the same time kids and their families are safe.
I think some kind of hybrid system is our best path, but until our entire society understands the importance of masks, it going to mean EXTREMELY limited contact, maybe even only one day per week per child, with only 25% of each grade level per day with one day set aside for teacher preparation, workshops, etc.
If this country continues to ignore science, though, it's simply going to delay the learning environment we nearly all agree is most desirable.
Even my granddaughter knows that. She pays attention to science.
I think there is also another consideration. There is a further group of students where one parent makes a lot of money, and the other does not work. These parents are more than likely not to send their children to school this year, but instead teach them at home themselves. Their access to teachnology and income also allows for parents to purchase quality educational software for them to learn from home independent of a school district. I think there are going be to a lot of districts finding there are fewer students in the higher income areas of their school system.
Incorrect. Because the issue of schools is whether they will increase infections to teachers and staff. Whether they increase it from a low base, medium base or high base is largely irrelevant. Further, it's quite easy for teachers to distance from kids in class, have a screen even if someone thinks that necessary, but still teach.
Few people will argue that home/virtual schooling is better for children than in-person schooling. It isn't, and teachers would be the the first to say so. But right now most states and districts have inconsistent guidelines for what opening school means, and even plans that seem reasonable on their face (staggered start times, alternating in-person and at-home schooling, etc.) are logistical nightmares for a lot of reasons.
And there are real dangers for teachers. If Boston is like elsewhere, a lot of substitute teachers tend to be older, semi-retired teachers. Well, those people aren't inclined to walk into a school they haven't been in much and be exposed to a bunch of new vectors. So a lot of them are just not going to work this fall. And since most schools have rules about teachers and students having to stay home for some number of days in the event they are positive, and with few external substitutes available, that puts a lot of additional pressure on teachers in the system. And that's just one issue that arises from reopening schools.
As a father of two small children, I 100% recognize that we need schools both for child development as well as any sustained economic recovery. But "differing conditions" is doing a TON of heavy lifting in your statement, and those details aren't remotely clear enough to lots of parents, districts, and teachers. And that's the big difference between being medically "safe" and being viable for a lot of areas.
Well stated, and I disagree. There are many guidelines true, but they all have elements in common. Waiting until some national organization and all the teachers unions and everyone else agrees on a common guideline is waiting for something that will never happen. Meanwhile kids are being harmed right now, today. Now they will be harmed in the Fall too, while adults try to make policy based on what we don't know, versus what we do know.
But my point is that while there may be common elements those elements aren't necessarily feasible. For example, just because it's safer for schools to alternate in-person and remote teaching for classes doesn't mean it's necessarily possible for working parents, for example, to try to juggle schedules to accommodate those decisions. And that doesn't even get into the case of teachers with children at other schools or on different schedules, who are obviously expected to be in class but also expected to care for their kids at home.
I'm not arguing with you that kids benefit from being in school; the goal of getting kids into school in the fall should have been a major goal from the jump. But this country isn't in the position to safely open up schools in many states, and even those that are run the risk of outbreaks that would likely lead to schools closing down again for some period of time. And then we'll do this song and dance all over again.
I want schools to be open in the fall because that learning environment is best for kids. But as a country we also wasted 6 months bitching and moaning about Home Depot shopping and masks, so we're at a bad spot to put our teachers and students in a position to succeed in the fall
Ok, I'll bow out after this response, because I respect your writing but won't land where you are. Your first paragraph is an argument to go back to schools five days a week, not to not do that, and we have ample evidence from around the world, and testimony from many health authorities in those countries that this is indeed possible without hurting teachers or children. There is only one example worldwide, Israel, where spread seemingly increased, and counter evidence with all the others where it did not--many of whom are not even masking kids or distancing.
And those examples would be quite easy to draw upon by any district or state, again, basing policy on things we do know, rather than things we don't know, given the important of this issue.
Science being being negged here, which is only the result of the mgoechochamber.
It bears repeating, "The data showing kids aren't typically spreading it is against it. Scott Gottlieb, the American and Canadian pediatric associations, psychologists,The CDC, all agree that distance learning is substandard, harms kids, and in particular, harms poor children. They all agree schools should open, just with differing conditions. This decision is triumph of fear over facts, over the current science, over the experience in Europe, and rational thought."
The problem is countries that reopened schools were already having success in reducing the virus and spread which is definitely NOT happening here people American are too fucking selfish or stupid to socially distance and/or wear a mask. So looking at schools reopening in Europe after their infection rates has reduced dramatically and where they can socially distance in class my not be all that helpful in understanding what will happen in our overcrowded schools when more and more people are getting infected.
And lets also not suggest that the science is definitive at this point. They are learning more every day.
I hope that schools can reopen but to suggest that it is definite and something that can be applied countrywide by an administration that doesn't give two shits about people and won't work to come up with a plan is insanity.
The administration is irrelevant to school opening, which as we see today are controlled at the local or state level.
Regarding the science and the facts, nothing will be definitive until a couple years from now. But based on the facts we have today, it is very fair to say that the large balance of facts we know and examples we have say that schools can open.
The reason these European countries can open schools is because they reduced the number of cases in their country, unlike this Country. These European Countries also don’t have people pissing and moaning that they have to wear a mask, or protesting at state capitols with AR-15s because they can’t get a haircut.
I don't really keep up-to-date on LA gangs, but do they still have those awesome multi-ethnic, multi-racial gangs like they did in the 1980s classic "Colors"? Dude, they even had a freaking redhead in the gang!!!!!
Somehow I could actually see California having a law that legalizes street gangs, but only so long as those gangs have a percentage of each racial category proportionate to the local population - and women, too. And the women need to be jumped-in, just like the men. Blood in, blood out...
I'll try to keep this thread up for a while with the following caveat: Anyone who is here to troll or derail this thread will cause it to be either locked or taken down. What's more, their account on MGoBlog will be in immediate jeopardy. Disagree? Take it to the Mod Sticky thread and/or take it up with the MGoBlog owners and operators.
fwiw, we're in the Conejo Valley School District, which is just outside LA. At least for elementary school, we basically have two options: 1) fully online (which was how we finished this past school year), or 2) half-day in-school instruction with 2-3 hours of supplemental lessons/work at home. Half-day because class sizes will be limited to 10 max to facilitate social distancing, so they need to split up the day to accommodate everyone. 1.5 hours between morning and afternoon sessions for deep cleaning and teacher prep. Masks will be required of both teachers and students. We're fortunate to live in a relatively affluent area and the district is able to provide computers/tablets to any who need them.
Considering the circumstances we're pretty happy with this solution, and plan on sending our kindergartener and first-grader to the in-school option. It allows them to have the same routine everyday, and there could be a lot of learning benefits to the smaller class size.
Fortunately we don't have the density of LA (or Oxnard to the north), so cases here have been relatively few and manageable from a hospital capacity standpoint. But of course things could change and the kids could be stuck at home again.
I'm in LA with school-age kids (though in a different school district). I have very mixed feelings here. I don't see how kids can safely go back to school with things are they are now in a district as large and heterogeneous as LAUSD, though the smaller school districts in LA County might be able to make it work.
The other side of the equation is that this will put awful strain on parents and rob kids of much-needed socialization, as well as hands on teaching. I worry that some older students without parental support will grow disengaged and drop out, and that all students will suffer from lowered learning outcomes.
At the same time, if we just send them all back and COVID cases spike among kids, teachers, staff and families, that just makes everything worse and lengthens the time until we can get back to some semblance of normal. So damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
One thing my district has been exploring is staggered schedules, where every kid is on campus 3 days/week and they conduct as many classes as possible outside. This is feasible in an area that has about 300 days of sunshine and mild temperatures per year. But again, no way *LAUSD* could pull that off.
In short, COVID is an asshole and that vaccine can't get here fast enough.
I'm fairly confident there will be. There are already multiple vaccines that have demonstrated effectiveness and safety in phase 1 and 2 trials. What we *don't* know is *how* effective they are *over time* and whether there are *longer-term side effects.*
So definitely not in the bag, but among the various top candidates, I think there is reason for a good amount of optimism that *one* of them will deliver and be ready within the next 9 months.
All that said, I think it's very unlikely that we will have one in general distribution by the end of 2020. Astra Zeneca's vaccine is farthest along, but the UK gets the first 30m doses. We have secured 300m but the first doses we get will go to essential workers and patients on ventilators. Kids should be fairly early in the cycle, but I'm guessing not until 2021.
So this is why we should all socially distance, wear masks, etc. in the interim. *Maybe* if we do that effectively, we can get to a point where outbreaks are more easily containable. But given how things are going, I don't expect that to happen. Going to be a long 5 months to end the year...
There was a recent study in Germany that showed kids going back to school didn't result in increased cases, and children may actually be a "brake" on the virus. But it seems everyone has their minds made up and will not hear any new evidence on the matter.
Boom Goes the …
July 13th, 2020 at 3:39 PM ^
Yeah and the teachers union wants reopening of schools tied to defunding of police and Medicare for all. Crooked fucks
Joined: 02/24/2013
MGoPoints: 4292
Broken Brilliance
July 13th, 2020 at 3:43 PM ^
I belong to a teacher union. I think it has to do with Betsy D being on the trump administration, who is a big time school choice advocate. She supports using state funds in charter schools, who aren't always transparent with how they use per-pupil funding.
That and they think they might die, which is mostly valid if they are older or have comorbidities.
Also, it's pretty easy to sit at home and do a fraction of the work and zoom in plcs a few times a month.
Joined: 09/07/2010
MGoPoints: 7717
Michiganfootball1325
July 13th, 2020 at 6:45 PM ^
As a teacher, teacher unions are the biggest waste of time and money. They never do shit for teachers, yet champion themselves as heros. If they did so much for teachers, why does our pay still suck, where is our pensions, why is sick time being cut. Clowns at my school are always so upset when I say no every year, yet I have more money in my pay check and my fellow union teachers get nothing out of their $180+ a month fan club membership.
Joined: 10/30/2017
MGoPoints: 353
Special Agent Utah
July 13th, 2020 at 4:42 PM ^
Show us on the doll where the teachers union touched you.
Joined: 12/11/2019
MGoPoints: 178
Broken Brilliance
July 13th, 2020 at 4:49 PM ^
Yeah, you know I'm just trying to get back to contributing to society by actually working.
Your passion for fishing for upvotes on a message board is pretty important too, though.
Joined: 09/07/2010
MGoPoints: 7717
Bo Harbaugh
July 13th, 2020 at 6:01 PM ^
Boom, Why does every post you share sound like Alex Jones conspiracy theories?
Just curious, where do you get your disjointed, connect 5 unrelated issues misinformation?
Your logic is always A = B + C = D = MarXiSt ComMuNist PLoT DeSTroY AmERiCa!!!
Joined: 08/03/2019
MGoPoints: 38759
Michiganfootball1325
July 13th, 2020 at 6:46 PM ^
He may be out there sometimes but his post isn’t wrong. They won’t start school until police are defunded and school of choice/charter schools are taken out. Really care about the kids huh LA.
Joined: 10/30/2017
MGoPoints: 353
rob f
July 13th, 2020 at 6:21 PM ^
BOOM went your account ...
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mooseman
July 13th, 2020 at 7:16 PM ^
Thanks. This made me laugh.
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Sopwith
July 13th, 2020 at 8:49 PM ^
Zing!
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lhglrkwg
July 13th, 2020 at 3:45 PM ^
I think my state of New York is probably heading the same direction. I don't have a better solution to offer, but a lot of families rely on schools for childcare and for meals so there are wide effects to keeping schools closed. In my wife's district (rural, poorer), not every kid even has internet access at home so how are they gonna learn? It's a mess that has no good solution
Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 88063
wolverine1987
July 13th, 2020 at 4:17 PM ^
"As a public health leader and grandfather, I believe that having schools closed due to #COVID19 is a greater public health threat to children than having the schools reopen. I am confident we can open schools safely in partnership with local jurisdictions."
Robert Redfield, CDC director.
23% of the population of CA is people under 17, that is roughly 10 million people. Number of Covid deaths under 17? Zero. But these decisions are being guided "by the science."
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 18111
borninAnnArbor
July 13th, 2020 at 5:43 PM ^
I know there is a lot of concern about sending kids back to school. One of the concerns is not with students getting sick, but with the students passing the virus on to others who are higher risk.
As a teacher, one of my biggest concerns is with teachers over the age of 55 who have health concerns. In my building, I know of three teachers who are very high risk for various reasons. One of these just returned to school in January after beating breast cancer.
Some districts are placing these high risk teachers as the ones who may work with students who choose the on-line only model, but unfortunatly, some of the teachers who would probably need to stay home are also not the best at using technology. I wish districts would let teachers know what the distance learning plan is to be so we can learn how to best serve our students.
Joined: 10/10/2012
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lhglrkwg
July 13th, 2020 at 8:02 PM ^
Yep, my wife has the same concerns. To be in the schools is to basically be exposed to every family in town to some degree. She also mentioned most of the subs they rely on are retired teachers who aren't going to want to come in and potentially get themselves killed. No good solution
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Cali Wolverine
July 13th, 2020 at 6:34 PM ^
That is not the issue. The issue is the percentage of teachers, admin and coaches that are susceptible, and that children will be silent carriers and bring back the virus to their families that may have susceptible members. Don’t get me wrong, I would prefer my kids to learn in a classroom, but this argument that “kids don’t get sick“ is not the reason.
Joined: 01/13/2013
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wolverine1987
July 13th, 2020 at 3:46 PM ^
All the current facts are against this decision. The data showing risk for children is against it. The data showing kids aren't typically spreading it is against it. Scott Gottlieb, the American and Canadian pediatric associations, psychologists,The CDC, all agree that distance learning is substandard, harms kids, and in particular, harms poor children. They all agree schools should open, just with differing conditions. This decision is triumph of fear over facts, over the current science, over the experience in Europe, and rational thought.
Joined: 07/07/2008
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Bluetotheday
July 13th, 2020 at 3:54 PM ^
Agree. California is closing down again
Can we furlough our politicians pay? If we are all in this together, please, as a politician, reduce your pay the same as your representative body.
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NittanyFan
July 13th, 2020 at 3:55 PM ^
I generally agree with you.
We're entering a world were Las Vegas (not in the same state as Los Angeles, of course, but it may as well be a suburb of LA) is open, but schools are not.
That says something, I suppose. One could argue that BOTH should be in the same state (be it open or closed). But Vegas open and schools closed sounds like the plot of a dystopic science-fiction novel.
----------------
Another thing to consider: why do we even have public schools in the first place?
The answer, of course, is that public education provides, as much as is theoretically possible, everyone an equal opportunity to become educated and reach their potential. Its aim is to reduce inequality.
Unfortunately, an online education increases inequality. In many cities, up to a third of children don't have reliable access to a computer or the internet. They'll be falling behind. And those are the ones who are in most need of something that attempts to balance the playing field.
-------------------
I don't know if I'd go ALL the way in this argument - but I could theoretically argue that if everyone doesn't get an equal education opportunity, nobody should. E.g., no online schools at all - no public school at all until the buildings themselves reopen.
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Bluetotheday
July 13th, 2020 at 4:31 PM ^
No such thing as equal. Period.
lets use our favorite sport Football as an example. Assuming the QB is an important position, should we rotate players from the d-line to play an, because everything is equal? Should Michigan lower their standards for admin to make it equal?
what the hell in life is equal ???
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NittanyFan
July 13th, 2020 at 4:45 PM ^
"Equal opportunity" --- in theory, public schools are about providing everyone an equal opportunity.
Not an equal outcome, of course --- the outcome is dependent on the person.
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rob f
July 13th, 2020 at 5:30 PM ^
...and a lot of other factors too, most of which the child has no control over. Nor the parents, either, to a large extent for many.
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NittanyFan
July 13th, 2020 at 6:41 PM ^
Of course. There are always variables that are diverse, no matter how much we try to make one variable near-constant.
I will say, I just got in a discussion somewhere else --- and I think the argument "since an online-only education actually serves to increase inequalities, we shouldn't have ANY public schooling outside of a building environment" is stronger than I originally thought.
It would be interesting to see a public official or politician actually take that tact. Because implicit in that opinion is that teachers wouldn't get paid until we're back in the buildings. Would that change teachers' opinions?
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MGoPoints: 43802
rob f
July 13th, 2020 at 7:26 PM ^
I wish there was an easy solution(s); forcing schools to fully reopen, though, is NOT the answer.
I'm not an educator and also no longer have to worry about the education my own 3 kids. But I do have a granddaughter who lived under my roof for 8 years, making me very concerned with how her learning will proceed. She's a bright kid, mostly A's and the rest B's as a 4th and 5th grader, and she's highly interested in going to U of M and putting to good use her skills in math and the sciences.
(edit: She's also had asthma problems for several years. Another thing to complicate things for her mom on the decision of whether or not returning her to school.)
So yeah, I truly wish schools could all reopen on time and more importantly, stay open while at the same time kids and their families are safe.
I think some kind of hybrid system is our best path, but until our entire society understands the importance of masks, it going to mean EXTREMELY limited contact, maybe even only one day per week per child, with only 25% of each grade level per day with one day set aside for teacher preparation, workshops, etc.
If this country continues to ignore science, though, it's simply going to delay the learning environment we nearly all agree is most desirable.
Even my granddaughter knows that. She pays attention to science.
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Bluetotheday
July 13th, 2020 at 8:32 PM ^
Fair point, I agree with school. I just don’t agree with politicians, either side at this point. Nothing makes sense.
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MGoPoints: 9867
borninAnnArbor
July 13th, 2020 at 5:54 PM ^
I think there is also another consideration. There is a further group of students where one parent makes a lot of money, and the other does not work. These parents are more than likely not to send their children to school this year, but instead teach them at home themselves. Their access to teachnology and income also allows for parents to purchase quality educational software for them to learn from home independent of a school district. I think there are going be to a lot of districts finding there are fewer students in the higher income areas of their school system.
Joined: 10/10/2012
MGoPoints: 3554
Teeba
July 13th, 2020 at 4:06 PM ^
The "experience in Europe" would be more valuable if our situations were more similar. Sadly, they are not.
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MGoPoints: 3282
wolverine1987
July 13th, 2020 at 4:10 PM ^
Incorrect. Because the issue of schools is whether they will increase infections to teachers and staff. Whether they increase it from a low base, medium base or high base is largely irrelevant. Further, it's quite easy for teachers to distance from kids in class, have a screen even if someone thinks that necessary, but still teach.
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 18111
enlightenedbum
July 13th, 2020 at 5:01 PM ^
Not if you want high quality instruction! Especially in math where you have to see their work.
The problem was fucking up the virus response. It means institutions can't open without lots of people becoming extremely sick.
And consistently we've had the same people saying
Oh it's not a big deal, just a flu.
Oh the death rate isn't even high.
Masks don't actually work.
And every time those people have shown to be wrong. But this time we need to trust them, honest!
Joined: 06/06/2009
MGoPoints: 64452
Hold This L
July 13th, 2020 at 5:48 PM ^
The death rate isn’t high. CDC estimate is 0.4%. Ages 0-49 it’s 0.05%
This got downvotes with no rebuttal. I’m just reiterating what the CDC said. This board has really gone downhill
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bronxblue
July 13th, 2020 at 4:14 PM ^
Gottlieb also recognized that US students face a higher risk from COVID-19 infections compared to other countries due to higher levels of underlying conditions (such as asthma) and the fact those other countries have significantly fewer new cases than the US.
Few people will argue that home/virtual schooling is better for children than in-person schooling. It isn't, and teachers would be the the first to say so. But right now most states and districts have inconsistent guidelines for what opening school means, and even plans that seem reasonable on their face (staggered start times, alternating in-person and at-home schooling, etc.) are logistical nightmares for a lot of reasons.
And there are real dangers for teachers. If Boston is like elsewhere, a lot of substitute teachers tend to be older, semi-retired teachers. Well, those people aren't inclined to walk into a school they haven't been in much and be exposed to a bunch of new vectors. So a lot of them are just not going to work this fall. And since most schools have rules about teachers and students having to stay home for some number of days in the event they are positive, and with few external substitutes available, that puts a lot of additional pressure on teachers in the system. And that's just one issue that arises from reopening schools.
As a father of two small children, I 100% recognize that we need schools both for child development as well as any sustained economic recovery. But "differing conditions" is doing a TON of heavy lifting in your statement, and those details aren't remotely clear enough to lots of parents, districts, and teachers. And that's the big difference between being medically "safe" and being viable for a lot of areas.
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wolverine1987
July 13th, 2020 at 4:21 PM ^
Well stated, and I disagree. There are many guidelines true, but they all have elements in common. Waiting until some national organization and all the teachers unions and everyone else agrees on a common guideline is waiting for something that will never happen. Meanwhile kids are being harmed right now, today. Now they will be harmed in the Fall too, while adults try to make policy based on what we don't know, versus what we do know.
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 18111
bronxblue
July 13th, 2020 at 5:24 PM ^
But my point is that while there may be common elements those elements aren't necessarily feasible. For example, just because it's safer for schools to alternate in-person and remote teaching for classes doesn't mean it's necessarily possible for working parents, for example, to try to juggle schedules to accommodate those decisions. And that doesn't even get into the case of teachers with children at other schools or on different schedules, who are obviously expected to be in class but also expected to care for their kids at home.
I'm not arguing with you that kids benefit from being in school; the goal of getting kids into school in the fall should have been a major goal from the jump. But this country isn't in the position to safely open up schools in many states, and even those that are run the risk of outbreaks that would likely lead to schools closing down again for some period of time. And then we'll do this song and dance all over again.
I want schools to be open in the fall because that learning environment is best for kids. But as a country we also wasted 6 months bitching and moaning about Home Depot shopping and masks, so we're at a bad spot to put our teachers and students in a position to succeed in the fall
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 172039
wolverine1987
July 13th, 2020 at 6:19 PM ^
Ok, I'll bow out after this response, because I respect your writing but won't land where you are. Your first paragraph is an argument to go back to schools five days a week, not to not do that, and we have ample evidence from around the world, and testimony from many health authorities in those countries that this is indeed possible without hurting teachers or children. There is only one example worldwide, Israel, where spread seemingly increased, and counter evidence with all the others where it did not--many of whom are not even masking kids or distancing.
And those examples would be quite easy to draw upon by any district or state, again, basing policy on things we do know, rather than things we don't know, given the important of this issue.
Anyway, peace.
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 18111
Bodogblog
July 13th, 2020 at 4:50 PM ^
Science being being negged here, which is only the result of the mgoechochamber.
It bears repeating, "The data showing kids aren't typically spreading it is against it. Scott Gottlieb, the American and Canadian pediatric associations, psychologists,The CDC, all agree that distance learning is substandard, harms kids, and in particular, harms poor children. They all agree schools should open, just with differing conditions. This decision is triumph of fear over facts, over the current science, over the experience in Europe, and rational thought."
Joined: 06/08/2010
MGoPoints: 26674
ESNY
July 13th, 2020 at 6:13 PM ^
The problem is countries that reopened schools were already having success in reducing the virus and spread which is definitely NOT happening here people American are too fucking selfish or stupid to socially distance and/or wear a mask. So looking at schools reopening in Europe after their infection rates has reduced dramatically and where they can socially distance in class my not be all that helpful in understanding what will happen in our overcrowded schools when more and more people are getting infected.
And lets also not suggest that the science is definitive at this point. They are learning more every day.
I hope that schools can reopen but to suggest that it is definite and something that can be applied countrywide by an administration that doesn't give two shits about people and won't work to come up with a plan is insanity.
Joined: 11/06/2008
MGoPoints: 12315
wolverine1987
July 13th, 2020 at 6:21 PM ^
The administration is irrelevant to school opening, which as we see today are controlled at the local or state level.
Regarding the science and the facts, nothing will be definitive until a couple years from now. But based on the facts we have today, it is very fair to say that the large balance of facts we know and examples we have say that schools can open.
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 18111
Cali Wolverine
July 13th, 2020 at 6:41 PM ^
Joined: 01/13/2013
MGoPoints: 21755
Cali Wolverine
July 13th, 2020 at 7:04 PM ^
The reason these European countries can open schools is because they reduced the number of cases in their country, unlike this Country. These European Countries also don’t have people pissing and moaning that they have to wear a mask, or protesting at state capitols with AR-15s because they can’t get a haircut.
Joined: 01/13/2013
MGoPoints: 21755
Hotel Putingrad
July 13th, 2020 at 3:47 PM ^
In related news, all gang activity will be online too!
Joined: 12/10/2014
MGoPoints: 212732
FauxMo
July 13th, 2020 at 4:24 PM ^
I don't really keep up-to-date on LA gangs, but do they still have those awesome multi-ethnic, multi-racial gangs like they did in the 1980s classic "Colors"? Dude, they even had a freaking redhead in the gang!!!!!
Joined: 06/17/2010
MGoPoints: 137619
Bo Harbaugh
July 13th, 2020 at 6:02 PM ^
California has always had the most progressive criminal underworld
Joined: 08/03/2019
MGoPoints: 38759
FauxMo
July 13th, 2020 at 6:14 PM ^
Somehow I could actually see California having a law that legalizes street gangs, but only so long as those gangs have a percentage of each racial category proportionate to the local population - and women, too. And the women need to be jumped-in, just like the men. Blood in, blood out...
Joined: 06/17/2010
MGoPoints: 137619
rob f
July 13th, 2020 at 4:07 PM ^
(I obviously have to post this warning here, too)
NOTE TO ALL:
I'll try to keep this thread up for a while with the following caveat: Anyone who is here to troll or derail this thread will cause it to be either locked or taken down. What's more, their account on MGoBlog will be in immediate jeopardy. Disagree? Take it to the Mod Sticky thread and/or take it up with the MGoBlog owners and operators.
Joined: 11/11/2010
MGoPoints: 195668
805wolverine
July 13th, 2020 at 5:23 PM ^
fwiw, we're in the Conejo Valley School District, which is just outside LA. At least for elementary school, we basically have two options: 1) fully online (which was how we finished this past school year), or 2) half-day in-school instruction with 2-3 hours of supplemental lessons/work at home. Half-day because class sizes will be limited to 10 max to facilitate social distancing, so they need to split up the day to accommodate everyone. 1.5 hours between morning and afternoon sessions for deep cleaning and teacher prep. Masks will be required of both teachers and students. We're fortunate to live in a relatively affluent area and the district is able to provide computers/tablets to any who need them.
Considering the circumstances we're pretty happy with this solution, and plan on sending our kindergartener and first-grader to the in-school option. It allows them to have the same routine everyday, and there could be a lot of learning benefits to the smaller class size.
Fortunately we don't have the density of LA (or Oxnard to the north), so cases here have been relatively few and manageable from a hospital capacity standpoint. But of course things could change and the kids could be stuck at home again.
Joined: 06/15/2018
MGoPoints: 1191
Eye of the Tiger
July 13th, 2020 at 5:46 PM ^
I'm in LA with school-age kids (though in a different school district). I have very mixed feelings here. I don't see how kids can safely go back to school with things are they are now in a district as large and heterogeneous as LAUSD, though the smaller school districts in LA County might be able to make it work.
The other side of the equation is that this will put awful strain on parents and rob kids of much-needed socialization, as well as hands on teaching. I worry that some older students without parental support will grow disengaged and drop out, and that all students will suffer from lowered learning outcomes.
At the same time, if we just send them all back and COVID cases spike among kids, teachers, staff and families, that just makes everything worse and lengthens the time until we can get back to some semblance of normal. So damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
One thing my district has been exploring is staggered schedules, where every kid is on campus 3 days/week and they conduct as many classes as possible outside. This is feasible in an area that has about 300 days of sunshine and mild temperatures per year. But again, no way *LAUSD* could pull that off.
In short, COVID is an asshole and that vaccine can't get here fast enough.
Joined: 09/14/2009
MGoPoints: 7883
Rabbit21
July 13th, 2020 at 8:22 PM ^
So what happens if there isn't an effective vaccine coming?
Joined: 11/12/2009
MGoPoints: 30387
Eye of the Tiger
July 13th, 2020 at 8:31 PM ^
I'm fairly confident there will be. There are already multiple vaccines that have demonstrated effectiveness and safety in phase 1 and 2 trials. What we *don't* know is *how* effective they are *over time* and whether there are *longer-term side effects.*
So definitely not in the bag, but among the various top candidates, I think there is reason for a good amount of optimism that *one* of them will deliver and be ready within the next 9 months.
All that said, I think it's very unlikely that we will have one in general distribution by the end of 2020. Astra Zeneca's vaccine is farthest along, but the UK gets the first 30m doses. We have secured 300m but the first doses we get will go to essential workers and patients on ventilators. Kids should be fairly early in the cycle, but I'm guessing not until 2021.
So this is why we should all socially distance, wear masks, etc. in the interim. *Maybe* if we do that effectively, we can get to a point where outbreaks are more easily containable. But given how things are going, I don't expect that to happen. Going to be a long 5 months to end the year...
Joined: 09/14/2009
MGoPoints: 7883
DCGrad
July 13th, 2020 at 5:50 PM ^
There was a recent study in Germany that showed kids going back to school didn't result in increased cases, and children may actually be a "brake" on the virus. But it seems everyone has their minds made up and will not hear any new evidence on the matter.
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/07/13/world/europe/13reuters-health-coronavirus-germany-schools.html
Joined: 09/20/2014
MGoPoints: 9261
Eye of the Tiger
July 13th, 2020 at 6:07 PM ^
Unfortunately, this is not strong enough evidence to base policy on by itself (though it *may* get better support later on).
Hopefully it's true!
Joined: 09/14/2009
MGoPoints: 7883
ESNY
July 13th, 2020 at 6:23 PM ^
Berner said the study was representative for the state of Saxony, which has a relatively low rate of infection compared to other parts of Germany.
For other states with low infection rates, the study suggests schools could be re-opened without causing widespread outbreaks of the virus, he said.
The quote makes it clear this does not apply to at least 50% of the US
Joined: 11/06/2008
MGoPoints: 12315