Carr allegedly advised 2008 commit to flip to Iowa

Submitted by Leaders And Best on August 22nd, 2012 at 1:04 PM

Lloyd Carr allegedly advised 2008 Michigan QB commit John Wienke to flip to Iowa during the Rich Rodriguez transition because it would better fit his style of play as a pro-style QB. And it clearly worked out as Wienke is now a punter at Iowa. I wonder if Carr will finally address the story from Three and Out about his willingness to sign off on any transfers.  Doubt it.

Scott Dochterman @ScottDochterman

Former Michigan coach guided QB to Iowa | TheGazette 



August 22nd, 2012 at 1:35 PM ^

The design of these t-shirts and the fact that they will not be produced is not a travesty because they were never actually available.  I'm more concerned about the non-event that is the Upton T-shirt Incident than I am about the Weinke non-event.  And I was RichRodFollower during the former regime's tenure...

I've moved on, you can too!


August 22nd, 2012 at 1:37 PM ^

1. Carr would have been an asshole if he told Wienke that he should have stayed, when Carr certainly knew that Wienke wouldn't fit.

2. We shouldn't be upset about this, because if Wienke had come to Michigan, he probably would have transferred or quit the team by now.  He would have sat the bench for the Rodriguez years, and by now, the best he could possibly be would be a second string QB behind Denard.

So...much ado about nothing.  It's a non-factor.  Good for Carr, who was honest with the kid he was recruiting.


August 22nd, 2012 at 1:57 PM ^

How do you know he didn't encourage Wienke to speak to RR?

And regardless of whether he suggested that or not, a coach should give a kid his honest opinion instead of thinking "You should transfer" but saying "Well, listen to Rodriguez's sales pitch."

Carr was honest, and some of you people wanted him to be sleazy and encourage the kid to make a bad decision.  Yeesh.


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:04 PM ^

How is saying, "I don't know what Coach Rodriguez plans to do, it would probably be best if you spoke to him to see how you'd fit in his system," encouraging the kid to make a bad choice? I would say that I encouraging him to get all the info to make an informed decision.


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:08 PM ^

....Carr is not the kid's father and he should have deflected that question to someone else.  There is a big difference between what Carr did:


1. "You should probably go to Iowa"


2. "As much as I would like, I don't feel comfortable giving you advice on that.  You should talk with your coach/dad."

or even...

3. "Listen to RichRod."


Carr screwed up.  He is human.  Stop going to such effort to defend his clear errors.  It makes you seem unreasonable and beholden to him or something.



August 22nd, 2012 at 2:03 PM ^

...but not the only way.  First, let me say:I agree with you that it is a "non-factor and no one should be upset by it at all.

However, here is another equally reasonable interpretation:

1.  Carr offerred Weinke as a QB.  He thought he was good enough to play QB for Michigan.  Carr sent the kid to play for another Big Ten team and potentially set Michigan up to face a kid Carr thought would be a pretty good QB.

2. Carr didn't have to lie.  He could have just not responded.  Wienke had other people to listen to and Carr could have just said "firgure it out for yourself" or "I don't feel comfortable giving you advice about where to go now that I am no longer coach."


I agree with you that it is a "non-factor and no one should be upset by it.  I just think it is mroe reasonable to acknowledge Carr didn't handle it well even though he was a good coach and good guy.  In the end, no harm , no foul....move along.

Smash Lampjaw

August 22nd, 2012 at 6:21 PM ^

Actually, it seems to me that he had as much reason to hope for PT as anyone, especially if it was already known that Mallett was transferring. Not in a pro-style offense maybe, but playing time nonetheless. It doesn't seem like the custom of a man who was proud of being an educator first to tell a kid that his chance of playing was not good- that he should give up and go elsewhere. (And did he not know about Shaun King?) For instance, what would have been his advice to a discouraged young Tom Brady when he was far down the depth chart? I suggest that maybe Coach Carr was influenced by mixed emotions, understandably so, and may have given him some guidance that he would not have appreciated as much had Gary Moeller given it to Scott Dreisbach. Do unto others, etc.



August 22nd, 2012 at 1:48 PM ^

He was honest with recruits and they wouldn't have played with Rich Rod. It also freed up scholarship for the offensive genius (genius outside top 25 opponents, which is all WVU played). What is the problem with bring honest Urban? Rich Rod drove our program into the ground. Three and out was Bacon kissing RichRod's ass for letting him follow him around. I was a huge Rich Rod fan, but I realized I was wrong, and some haven't. Koombayah singing RichRod sucked!


August 22nd, 2012 at 1:52 PM ^

carr doesn't owe an explanation to anyone, especially a RR apologist looking for excuse #1028 why RR failure wasn't his fault. go root for arizona.


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:13 PM ^

I love how anyone who isn't praising Carr is being negged for trolling or flaming. Why have an open forum if you just want everyone to agree with you?


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:33 PM ^

You're being negged because you bring no actual information or cogent points to the debate.  As evidenced by your Tressel/Carr comments that first got people negging you.  At this point you're either being delibrately dense or trolling.  Why have a voting function on this open forum if we can't use it?  

If you'll note, justingoblue and myself exchanged comments on how Carr should have handled it.  We're both at 5 score for those comments right now since we were civil and I think both of us had a fair point (I even upvoted him).  There is no blind personality cult voting as a bloc, but the board is intolerant of those who don't back their arguments up with logic or links.  It's even less tolerant of voting related gripes.


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:38 PM ^

Also please explain how the majority of Michigan fans defending Carr saying he did no wrong, is not comparable to the OSU fan base saying Trasel did no wrong? Wether or not you believe one was right and one was wrong the quickness in which the fan base defends their old coach is comparable.


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:46 PM ^

Tressel: Lied (in breach of his employment contract and NCAA rules) to keep current players elegible. Tressel admitted lying, was fired by his employer and censured by the NCAA for his actions.

Carr: At absolute worst, advised an ill-fitting committ to look elsewhere for playing time without permission of the current head coach (who would have, under pretty much any circumstances, never extended an offer in the first place and was honoring a past offer). For this he was...later thanked by the recruit in question and nothing has been said by former Michigan coaches.


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:55 PM ^

Since when is perception not supposed to be based on actions? Let me take this to an extreme example: let's say Tressel murders a puppy. If the Ohio fanbase still claim he's a great guy, they're delusional, because great guys don't murder puppies. On the other hand, let's say a little kid really wants a puppy, but the puppy in question is a German Shepherd that needs a lot of room to exercise, and the kids parents live in a small apartment. Lloyd Carr tells the animal shelter, "let's find a different home for this particular puppy". The kid might be sad until he finds another, different, puppy, but the puppy is happier with another family on a farm.

His actions here are defensible, even when taken in the worst possible context; Tressel's are not.

Also, I think this is my first ever MGoAnalogy using puppies.


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:16 PM ^

Using your analogy, let's say Tressel claims he killed said puppy because he felt one of his players was in danger. Of course his fan base would believe him, just the same as Carrs fan base believes him.


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:30 PM ^

What you're missing here is the degree of seriousness between the two. Going back to what actually happened, Tressel repeatedly lied in breach of contract. The worst thing Carr is alleged to have done on this thread is steer a recruit away from Michigan without the backing of the head coach at Michigan. One of those things can leave you as a man worth looking up to, and one doesn't.

If we all turn on the news tomorrow, and they're reporting that Carr had lied to keep Henne, Long and Manningham elegible for the 2006 Ohio game, he would be ripped into shreds on here, assuming the information was credible. There has been plenty of Carr criticism on MGoBlog, from Brian on down, but this isn't something to get hung up on, especially compared to Tatgate.


August 22nd, 2012 at 4:19 PM ^

I am in no capacity comparing the severity of what Tressel did to what Carr did.  However, According to Bacon, Carr did much more than (allegedly) steer a single recruit to Iowa; he offered to sign transfer papers for his players before RR ever got to campus.  I understand the respect and admiration for Carr, but I feel like Michigan fans overlook that fact.  


August 22nd, 2012 at 5:09 PM ^

that's fine. I still think Carr deserves the respect he gets, especially when taking a look at guys like Tressel, Paterno, Kelly, Petrino, ect. who all had scandals related to integrity issues. I might think Lloyd went about things the wrong way, but I think he's always been honest and tried to do things the way he felt was best.


August 22nd, 2012 at 8:38 PM ^

Ok. Let's assume this is fact--that Carr offerred to sign transfer papers before RR ever got to campus.  Bacon reports this based on what players told him.  But guess what's missing?  The context. Those using this as evidence of Carr's treachery seem to assume that this offer was made with suggestions that they should transfer and not stick around to see what RR is all about. But what if the offer was prompted by players grumbling about a new coach and Carr told them, "stick around, talk to the new coach before you make a decision, but if any of you are such pu$$ies you can't man up and talk to the new coach before making a decision, come by my office, and I'll gladly sign.

Same offer, two completely different motives. Since Carr didn't sign any of the transfer offers, it really seems doubful he was actively working to push players away before RR set foot on campus.