Carr allegedly advised 2008 commit to flip to Iowa

Submitted by Leaders And Best on August 22nd, 2012 at 1:04 PM

Lloyd Carr allegedly advised 2008 Michigan QB commit John Wienke to flip to Iowa during the Rich Rodriguez transition because it would better fit his style of play as a pro-style QB. And it clearly worked out as Wienke is now a punter at Iowa. I wonder if Carr will finally address the story from Three and Out about his willingness to sign off on any transfers.  Doubt it.

Scott Dochterman @ScottDochterman

Former Michigan coach guided QB to Iowa | TheGazette 



August 22nd, 2012 at 3:22 PM ^

Right or wrong, both coaches claimed and believed they had their players best interests in mind. You just see it differently because you have Maize and Blue glasses on.

I'll use a real life example. I have NEVER read a single nice thing about Gene Smith here, just lots of terrible things. That said I had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife last year at the Big Ten Championship. Gene was one of the nicest guys I have wet met, even though my belter and I were wearing all Michigan gear. He invited us to come to Columbus this year to watch the game with him and his wife.

You perceive him to be a terrible man because he represents OSU, I know this to be false.


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:39 PM ^

Your Gene Smith analogy has nothing to do with this conversation, he gets a bad rep for being poor at his job, not for being perceived as a bad person...

The Tressel and Carr comparisons are apples to oranges in every way. Tressel might have had the interests of his players in mind, but he also had winning a championship on his mind (having said involved players gave him the best chance to win.) Carr thought that a player might have been a square peg in a round hole once RR was hired so he advised him to maybe look elsewhere.

I honestly don't think you can be this dense, sure there are some here who praise Carr, but there are also plenty who dislike Carr for the way the RR years went down. You are getting negged because you don't seem to grasp the discussion and continue to bring it back to OSU's fanbase vs UM's fanbase when it comes to defending recent coaches. 

Wolverine Devotee

August 22nd, 2012 at 5:18 PM ^

You sound like that ignoramus who is on the afternoon show on WTKA on Thursday, Dan from Pinckney.

Get over it already. Get off this board and stop spreading your idiocy if you can't face the fact your lovechild rr was a failure of a coach here.

Seriously. Why are people still giving a shit about him?

It's two weeks away from the season with a REAL coaching staff and a team fresh off a BCS win, and people like you are still whining like it's 2010.


August 22nd, 2012 at 7:24 PM ^

You make it sound like a bunch of fans on an internet forum may somehow cause bad things to happen this season if they discuss the past. 


Feel free to keep your head buried in the sand if you cant face the fact that Carr did damage to the program.  I never said RR didn't fail.  It is extremely possible that had Carr supported him, he still would have failed.  But only an "ignoramous" would insist that Carr advising kids to choose other schools and signing off on transfers would help Michigan win football games.

O Fo Sho

August 22nd, 2012 at 2:44 PM ^

both knew we had Threat and Sheridan already.  There was no way he could have ran the spread option attack better than those two.  Case closed!


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:00 PM ^

Who cares! It wouldn't have even mattered. Replace Sheridan/Threet with Weinke and you have the same result. Pocket passers running the ball with Navarre like mobility. Now kindly Get OFF my Lawn!


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:52 PM ^

Lloyd Carr looks out for the kids first. This kid was a better fit at Iowa since they run a pro offense. Besides Rodriguez isn't exactly a coach I'd want one of my kids to play for. His former players rarely speak positive about him. I think he's a selfish asshole.

micheal honcho

August 22nd, 2012 at 3:57 PM ^

And the "If Carr had clearly reccomended RR for the Michigan job and was the first person toe contact him, why didn't he support him?" Lets go back into the text of the obviously biased Jon U Bacon himself.

How were Lloyds assistants and staffers dealt with again?? Sitting in a hallway for hours on end awaiting their appointment to beg for a job that the new guy has already made it clear you're not going to get??

Did we miss reading this crucial part of the book? Does anyone not see that this is the moment when the Carr/RR relationship soured? You have more than a couple dozen people who have been a part of your program for years, they have become more than assistants/coordinators/trainers etc. to you, they are like family. When the new guy handles them as poorly as RR did the seeds of discontent were sewn. Every one of those Carr people, when they ran into Lloyd about town, had nothing but hatred for the way they were treated and ol Lloyd got to relive it with them over and over.

Ask yourself how Lloyd would have treated the outgoing staff if he was the new guy?? After all having met the man myself and knowing a couple guys who played under him the one thing that is most often refrained about Lloyd is the word "class". Something the rube from the former Hatfield territory knew to little about.

Bitch about Debord, bitch about undeachieving on the field with talent to do better, bitch about his ultra conservative playcalling and I've got no beef. However to assign such petty adjectives as "self centered, egotistical, crabby, jealous etc." to the man you need to show me where, in our 20+ years of having him a part of the Michigan program and having forged relationships with countless hundreds of kids, he has established a reputation for any of these adjectives? I just don't see it.

Conversely, what reputation had RR forged for himself in WV?? In a trial the chorus of character witnesses for Lloyd would be around the block, with very few that I know of who would testify to the contrary. I don't think it would take long to find somebody anxious to sing about how RR screwed them over on a real estate deal or whatever.

You are what you spend 20 years being, not what some outsider can twist one incident into making you appear to be.

Section 1

August 22nd, 2012 at 4:09 PM ^

to someone like, uh, you.  But...

Firing all of the former assistants, despite the wishes of the hiring athletic director is not new.  A guy named Bo Schembechler did it -- he kept two of Bump Elliott's staff, despite a firm request from Don Canham.  And Bump Elliott remained staunchly supportive of Bo despite that.

And if you had read Three and Out carefully, you'd have known that Bill Martin raised the same issue with Rodriguez (keeping the assistants), only to have been schooled by a remarkably together Mary Sue Coleman who said firmly, "Bill, you can't ask him to do that..."

The rest of your garbage was so dumb and insulting it was painful to read.

micheal honcho

August 22nd, 2012 at 4:18 PM ^

Clearly you missed the point. How were they fired?? Did Bo have Elliots guys waiting in a hallway talking amongst themselves while they awaited the executioner?? I don't know firsthand but something tells me that's not how it happened.

I have been terminated or layed off or downsized 2X in my life of over 40yrs. Once it was handled with dignity, compassion and understanding. Once it was not. My opinion of those respective companies reflects this.

BTW, you're welcome everyone. I got him in here!! and with nothing more than "dumb and insulting garbage". 


August 22nd, 2012 at 5:47 PM ^

Great post.  And to take it one step back as an analogy...when Moeller had the drinking incident which was very uncharistic of him as a man, a bunch of haters jumped all over him.  I know first hand from people that played for Gary at Michigan...that the LOVED him and would do anything for him.  Lloyd had the same effect on players at Michigan.  Haters can suck it,,,, you do not know what really went on... and that includes the OP of this ridiculous post.


August 22nd, 2012 at 4:24 PM ^

he was right. Iowa was a better fit for Wienke. If a HS kid asks that kind of question under that circumstance, Carr probably should have defferred any response. But, once he chose to respond, there was only one appropriate answer.


August 22nd, 2012 at 10:57 PM ^

agreed.. had DR not been here and UM had gone 6-6 or 7-5, would we be saying that BH was a great fit.  On the other hand, had RR gone 11-2.  People would be saying he was great fit.  Lets be real with each other.  WE LOVE A WINNER.. PERIOD!  The question will be if BH goes 7-5 (Very possible) this year with a senior lead team, which RR never got, will people still be as excited for him.  Same thing happened to LC.  When he was beating OSU every year, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, he lost like 3 years in a row and  people wanted his head.  Everyone one wanted an offense that was more exciting and put numbers on the board.  In comes RR.  Two losing seasons, and everybody wants to go back to the same offense that was run with LC.  As a fan base, we are satisfied with losing 2 games every year.  As an alum and a fan, I am not satisfied with that.  I want NC!! not B1G or legends divisions, I want NC!  I was willing to have a few disappointing years in order to get there.  Had they been willing shell out the money for a defensive coordinator during RR time as they did with BH, I guarantee the defense would be better.  I think we will be back in the same old 9-3, 10-2 from now on, which is fine by most standards, just not mine.


August 22nd, 2012 at 7:23 PM ^

It amazes be that the "die hard" ("die hard" is quite the understated term in this case) Rich Rod fans' only complaint about Carr is that he is personally responsible for RR's failure because he "allegedly" decided to let his recruits transfer.   (No I didn't forget the arguement that the AD's office, former player, and the rest of the United States of America we also the Reason for RR failure.)  Somehow this delusion extends to making Carr out to be a bad guy.  But as many players and local AA fans that are close to the program have testified, Lloyd was a man of integrity and "players" coach...just like Bo, Mo, and Hoke.

Even if he did approve the transfers and advise a QB to go elsewhere we don't know why.  Three and out never inverviewed him.  Know one can really say for sure.  But many, knowing the man, know that he did it for his players.  He put the kids first.  Am I the only one who's first response (when reading about Carr's recommending Iowa to a Pro QB and allowing his recruits to transfer) is that this was the highest integrity and most honorable thing to do.  

RR could still recruit them.  He had a great record coming in.  If he wanted the kids, if they fit the new offense, and if the kids felt a personal fit they could have all stayed.  To believe otherwise you have to believe that Lloyd was a bitter old man, wanted RR to fail, didn't care that Michigan might go through some tough years.  But that would be just as delusional as blaming Carr for RR's failure.

The only other thing we don't know if what happened in the meeting between RR and Lloyd that "some believe" made him change his mind about trusting RR with his.  And clearly, Lloyd isn't going to tell why he changed his mind about RR.




August 22nd, 2012 at 8:07 PM ^

he would have had Mallet guy turned out pretty good against better D's than the Big Ten, Adrian Arrington for a senior year since he owed everything to Lloyd for letting him back on the team, Mario Manningham who unless I am completely lost today had 1 year left. Plus the other guys who left cause the system was not for them or whatever reasons. So yeah blame it on Bill Martin who had no one on the roster to fit the new scheme waited 8 years if felt like to replace a guy who we all knew stayed for Hart, Henne, and Long and all the other seniors. Lloyd did not like Rich Rod cause he hated Miles and Miles choice after turning us down was none other than Richie Rod.


August 22nd, 2012 at 7:32 PM ^

Lloyd Carr and I cried watching the men in maize and blue carrying him off the field after beating the Gators in a game way closer than the real score told. Now Lloys is my homeboy no question and can never do wrong in my mind or eyes. And for all the so called bad things he did for Rich and the incoming recruits well damnit he had the right to do that. One last thing I have also heard Mr. Lloyd Carr tried retiring a few years before like 3 or 5 in that range because he had an illness or just found he he was ill, not life threatning but I think Parkinsons ( dont kill me if that part is wrong. He was told he was not aloud and they begged him to stay cause he was the face of the University of Michigan and there was not a coach in waiting or an ex- michigan ready. So if that is true and he did stay 5 more years I am pretty sure he can do what he wants end of story. So basically the guy did some things Bo couldnt do and never did in 8 less years as a coach with stiffer competition and less scholarships, Bo could get all the players just to keep them from other teams. I also kinda feel us U of M fans are spoiled and 9 or 10 win season all day and night, top5 recruiting classes regularly and Big Ten Titles and BCS games every other year, and most wanted him out and thank God for Hoke cause he is savin g all of us from the old saying it isn't always greener on the other side.


August 22nd, 2012 at 7:38 PM ^


First, Hoke owe a lot of his success in his first season to the fact that Denard stayed. 

Let's get some facts straight.

1. The vast majority of the fans got very tired of Carr towards the end of his career, because his ability to beat Tressel.

2. The horror, the horror, the horror 

3. RR was abolutely a star at the time he was hired, who was offerred the Alabama job as well.

4. Carr didn't give RR any support from the moment RR was hired, and offerred to sign off transfer forms before RR was able to meet the team. 

5. RR is responsible for his own demise at M but he brought in majority of  the key offensive players on the current team, including, Denard, if not the most popular player in M history, is very close to be the most popular player in M history. 

6. When RR exited, he could have done what Carr has done, advised some of his players and recruits, especially, say Denard and Gardner to transfer, for the exactly the same reason that Carr argued, bad fit to a pro-style offense. RR didn't not do it even he was no longer affiliated with the university and even he exited not on a good term.  RR is a classy guy that Carr is not. 


August 22nd, 2012 at 9:52 PM ^

If you were the parent of that kid and your son's career was going to be ruined because of a change is system, wouldn't you want Carr, the coach who recruited him, to tell him the truth? 

Suppose Carr comes back to coach. Are you going to take this against him and not let your kid play for him?  I am more inclined to have my son play for him.