Carr allegedly advised 2008 commit to flip to Iowa

Submitted by Leaders And Best on August 22nd, 2012 at 1:04 PM

Lloyd Carr allegedly advised 2008 Michigan QB commit John Wienke to flip to Iowa during the Rich Rodriguez transition because it would better fit his style of play as a pro-style QB. And it clearly worked out as Wienke is now a punter at Iowa. I wonder if Carr will finally address the story from Three and Out about his willingness to sign off on any transfers.  Doubt it.

Scott Dochterman @ScottDochterman

Former Michigan coach guided QB to Iowa | TheGazette 



August 22nd, 2012 at 2:05 PM ^

There's knowing your history, and then there's beating a dead horse. At this point does it even matter what Lloyd and Rich did and didn't do? Neither of them are affiliated with the team anymore, and with the exception of a few players, nobody had Rich for more than 2 years as a coach. He's gone, Lloyd's gone, let's put the discussion away


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:17 PM ^

in light of the fact that Rich Rodriguez got a raw deal and Lloyd Carr is still viewed as this can't do no wrong all-around great guy by many people. Carr, along with others, undermined Rodriguez from the get-go. Yes Rodriguez played a role in his own undoing by his inability to forge a decent defense but let's be fair to him; he certainly did not get any support from Carr. Personally, this story does not surprise me. Carr always struck me as a stubborn, crabby old geezer who did things only his way and if you disagreed with him, called him out, you were a dead man walkin'.   

snarling wolverine

August 22nd, 2012 at 2:42 PM ^


in light of the fact that Rich Rodriguez got a raw deal


Wait, it's a fact that Rodriguez got a raw deal?  You may believe that, but others among us feel that he was not the right guy for the job and that Hoke is a much better fit.

I think it's interesting that you kind of shrug off the fact (and it is a fact) that Rodriguez fielded three of the worst defenses in school history.  What kind of "support" could Carr have offered to remedy that?


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:08 PM ^

Rich may have gotten a raw deal with certain things...cough...Free Press...cough....and not with other things (coach not winning enough games and getting fired isn't a raw deal, it's the business). We don't now for a fact Rich couldn't have been a good fit here.  We don't know when and how Lloyd supported him (did he recommend him for the job? didn't he?).  Or whoat level constitutes lack thereof.  We can guess there wasn't full support...just like we can guess that some of the things Rich is alleged to do didn't really elicit a lot of supporful feelings. 

The only thing that the OP put out there that was true was his last sentence...because they're his feelings. And that's what most of this stuff is about, just doing the same blanket thing they're accusing others of.  Didn't like Carr...most likely because they didn't win the amount of games he thought they should (re: all of them). Complained regularly to friends, co-workers, on the radio.  Got his wish when he left.  Found out things could get a lot worse. But no, couldn't have been wrong about Carr all that time....or how much better things would be with some young innovator!  So all the problems of the next three years...yeah, must have been someone else's fault!  In fact, it was STILL Carr's fault...not any of the coaches who were, you know, coaching the games and stuff. My perceptions and expectations were always right and anything that shows I might have been in error..well, it a conspiracy dagnabbit.

Impaler 19

August 22nd, 2012 at 6:06 PM ^

It might not be a fact that RichRod got a raw deal but your arrogant comment about how many people felt he was not the right guy for the job right from the start does support that argument some. If he had been given a chance by those that didn't think he was the right guy then things might have been different.

For the record, I wanted him to, and thought that he would succeed. I also agree that it was time for him to go.

snarling wolverine

August 22nd, 2012 at 6:34 PM ^

You are completely misrepresenting what I said.  What I meant was that many of us now believe, with the benefit of hindsight, that he was not the right guy for the job.  When he was here, I cheered for him to succeed.  It was brutal watching us go 15-22 those years, and when he was fired, I agreed with it.  But I didn't want him to fail.  I would have loved to have seen him succeed.

Anyhow, I'm still trying to understand how Rodriguez would have become a better defensive coach if he just had more "support" from Carr.   Unless Carr hypnotized him into hiring GERG and then making him run the 3-3-5, I don't see how the two are connected.



August 22nd, 2012 at 3:40 PM ^

There are a lot of Carr supporters on this blog but I certainly am not one of them. As far as coaching goes, he was good and steady but not great, Michigan's Mack Brown. He and his staff recruited really well and with the recruits that Michigan was getting should have been in the hunt for the National Championship year in and year out. The problem is that Carr's coaching was too conservative and utterly predictable. Let me on 3rd and 5? Every now and then he "spiced things up" with...wait...WOW THE DOUBLE REVERSE......insanity!!!!! The main reason why Michigan was good under Carr is because the elite recruits, the talent that was there, carried the team for at least 8-10 wins per season. It certainly wasn't Carr's coaching provess/playbook. Many times Michigan should have won the game because they simply had the bette athletes on the field but our staff was flat out outcoaches (i.e. Appalachian State). Make some f'ing adjustements.....umm...umm..duhh. He was a stubborn dinosaur. He learned from Bo and was unable, or unwilling, to adapt to the newer, faster version of the game.

In addition to his vanilla offense, I did not find him to be a personable/pleasant person. He avoided reporters and, at times, when asked/challenged by a reporter he was right down rude...crabby, grumpy.


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:44 PM ^

Your assessment of his coaching is a perfectly valid opinion.  You're calling him out for being grumpy with reporters though??  Have you heard the some of the questions and repeat questions and rephrased rehashed questions they ask?  There's a reason there are so many blowups by coaches in press conferences.  If I was a coach I would probably intentionally give them the shortest answers possible and if they asked me the same question someone already asked I'd point to the other guy and say "ask him."  


August 22nd, 2012 at 4:31 PM ^

I think Carr had his weaknesses as a coach (specifically his generally risk-averse tendencies)  but I don't think it's fair to chide him for not being in national-championship contention on a regular basis.  Let's not forget that he won us our only national title in the past 60 years.  And really, given what's transpired recently, I don't think we should turn up our noses at the fact that he had 13 winning seasons in 13 years.  

Also, the idea that Bo was stodgy and unwilling to adapt with the times does not jibe with the evidence.  Compare the offenses we ran with Dennis Franklin and Rich Leach with what we ran with Harbaugh.  



August 22nd, 2012 at 8:44 PM ^

I think he had a "steadfast character," but he was also a competitive, crabby coach who has a lot of pride.  I was and still am a Rich Rod supporter in that I hope he does well at Arizona.  I believe he was given a raw deal and that most likely Carr was probably the opposite of helpful and gracious at times.

However, I don't really begrudge Carr all that much.  Very few people are truly black and white.  There is usually more gray and complexity to everyone.  Although I think what Carr did was probably wrong, it is time to move on with Hoke and the future of the MIchigan program.  

*EDIT: I believe Rich Rod was given a "raw deal" from some of the Michigan old school hardliners, but I still thought Rich Rod had to go by the end of this tenure.  GERG and the defense ensured his demise.  


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:44 PM ^

Carr had to abide by what his boss Martin wanted, despite it being program changing.  He could say to Martin that he'd not be in favor of hiring RR, but if Martin insisted, then Carr would have had to resume and recruit RR, which is exactly what he did.

Now, on to the transfers....OF COURSE he'll sign off on them....Do you want to be a program so crappy that you have to resort to artificial means of retention?  It would have been against the better part of decency, to try to hold them against their will.. It was a fact that the new program would not be a good fit for several players.

Give Carr a break on this.

HOWEVER.....     When he continued to lose consistently to Tressel, he should have been replaced with Tressel's right hand man....yep.... D'Antonio at Cincinnati...   akin to Bo/Woody... so we couldn't beat Tressel, then get someone who could  (granted we didn't know at the time he was cheating).   I don't know if thats on the AD or who...

The one thing you can finger Carr for is for staying on two more years at the request of Martin, and/or having NOTHING to say, of a replacement.....  though Hoke would've been nice, eh?


August 23rd, 2012 at 9:02 AM ^

I think Lloyd prioritized his people above The Team (at least in the end). My view, sucks for us, but Lloyd's is not a wrong approach.

If Lloyd advised Mallet, Weinke, Arrington, Mannigham, et al to make the best decisions for them, that is OK. All of those decisions were the right ones for those players. Adrian and Mario's stocks were not going to be higher than they were post-Cap One Bowl. Mallet fared better at Arkansas, and Wienke was not going to be a fit / had better odds of being successful at Iowa.

As far as I can tell from 3 and Out, the Mallet rumors and story, this story, etc., Lloyd actually helped get Rich Rod the interview ... so he seemed to be interested in Rich as a candidate. Then at some point that went south. I am betting when Rich fired all of Lloyd's people (which by all reports happened in a less than respectful way). And Lloyd did very little to support Rich publicly after that.

The key there is a Rich did not handle the letting go of Lloyd's people the right way (nor did he field a defense or special teams the right way), and Lloyd did look out for his peoples interests ahead of the team's and did not publicly support Rich. BOTH points of view are true.

I have yet to see proof that Lloyd actively undermined the team beyond simply taking care of his people. So, I give him a pass, though - based in my version of Bo values - I feel awkward about it.

Rich did not inherit the best situation, which did erode his base and make his situation harder. However, he never fielded a fully competent team, and I had no reason to believe defense or special teams would get any better. So I give Rich a fail, with well wishes moving forward at Arizona.

Then again, I am a fierce pragmatist.

Mr. Rager

August 22nd, 2012 at 3:52 PM ^


Lloyd is not affiliated with the team anymore?

Get your hands on some Sugar Bowl footage and watch the coin flip.  He's right. fucking. there.

Keep misinformed opinions like this to your self, or else some idiot on this blog might think you actually know what you are talking about.  


August 22nd, 2012 at 2:46 PM ^

Ya, but then there are conflicting reports about Carr being the guy who reached out to RR and was one of the individuals who seemed to be spearheading not only the RR interview but possibly the hire. Carr seemed gun-ho about the hire and then reneged on his interest in RR.

On the note of the story, it isn't really that big of a deal. From the kid's story it seems Carr was just saying that his style would be better at Iowa then under a spread at Michigan with RR. As people below have noted, it seems like he was just offering his unbiased opinion on where the kid's style of play would fit best. Maybe he should have suggested the kid contact RR and his offensive staff, but we really don't know cause the kid only relates one small slice of the story. Until more to a story emerges, I am going back to salivating about the Bama game.


August 22nd, 2012 at 5:18 PM ^

I think that would actually be a Ho-Gun.  Then a "Gun-Ho" would be a Ho who only has sex in exchange for guns?  Or with guys that own guns?  Or with guns?

In any case, it seems like a more fun topic to debate than whether or not Lloyd Carr steered this kid to Iowa.  Even if we could use a more consistant punter right now.


August 22nd, 2012 at 3:00 PM ^

I dread these topics not because of the pain of thinking about a beloved former coach doing something that would make me think less of him, but rather coming here and seeing all this bullshit, with people arguing over utter nonsense.


We have a great team now, with some fantastic student-athletes, extremely dedicated coaches, and great support staff.  Let's focus on that, on Bama (which is only 10 days away) and on the season.


August 22nd, 2012 at 1:26 PM ^

Weinke decommitted on the 15th. Best that I can tell, RR was probably informally hired that same day. We know that it took a few days for it to all come together, so LC could have let Weinke know when RR first started getting serious consideration.

*I don't think that LC necessarily did this, nor do I think it's a big deal. I'm just pointing out that the dates aren't necessarily a reason that the story is incorrect.


August 22nd, 2012 at 1:09 PM ^

There's one quote from Wienke, but he doesn't include what questions he asked Carr, and it's possible the conversation was different than Wienke remembers. Then again, he was one part of a two-way conversation, and I definitely wasn't present.

Whether Carr did this or not, will that really change anyones view on him? I know I've had my opinion on Carr more or less set for years, and this isn't a bombshell that's about to change anything.