OSU/ND/MSU - Rivalry, Hatred, Dislike? Discuss
I'd like to see comments & thoughts on the relative merits of OSU, ND, and MSU. Who is our rival? Who do you hate most? Despise? Respect? Other?
I remember hearing that Michigan always played hard against OSU, but respected them as a worthy opponent. I seem to recall the same as regards ND. MSU has had charges of playing dirty as a team.
For me, I would rank the following way:
1) OSU is our prime rival. I don't hate the team, but definitely want to beat them. It is hard for me to despise the coach. I don't like the fans at all.
2) ND, I like the Univ, want to beat the team, can't stand the coach, although I'm glad he is there (as it only helps us.)
3) MSU, I don't care for the coach, always want to beat the team, but it's hard to view them really as a rival.
Thoughts?
1) I hate when UM bets MSU.
2) "MSU usually beats us once out of five years or so." Unless you're only going back a few years, that's a math fail. Even with the recent six-game losing streak (thanks JLS!), MSU has beaten UM six times in the last 20 years, or once every 3.3 years or so. Going back 50 years, it's once every 2.9 years.
http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/opp-opp.pl?start=1959&end=2…
BOOM RESEARCH'D
MSU - HATE
ND - DOUBLE-DOG HATE
OSU - TRIPLE-DOG HATE
OP, maybe ask the question again if MSU manages to pull off another win against us this year. (God, I hope not.) But make no mistake... MSU is a rival. That one's just lost its lustre a bit due to M dominance. Not that I have a problem with that. :)
How we all feel about MSU seems to have the most variance among fans. I think this has a lot to do with when someone started cheering for Michigan. As someone who has just completed my freshman year and had no previous connection to Michigan sports, I absolutely hate MSU because they were better than us this year in football and basketball and because of this year's hockey incident. I actually do feel a rivalry there.
For fans who have been around longer than I have I think the rivalry is less intense because they are used to Michigan pushing MSU around. For them it seems that MSU only matters every so often when the beat us and upset the natural order of things. As soon as we reestablish our dominance, no one cares anymore. If it weren't for having to deal with the insane inferiority complex of their fans, I doubt that long time Michigan supporters would care about MSU at all.
The controversial ending of the 1990 and 2001 UM/MSU football games will make me hate MSU forever.
2001:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Michigan_vs._Michigan_State_football_…
Sorry, can't seem to find a good recap of the 1990 game, but basically Desmond Howard was robbed of a 2-pt conversion catch in the end zone that woulda won the game on the last play. MSU 28, #1 UM 27.
Uggh. I watched that on ESPN Classic a couple of years ago. It was one of those horrible presentations where they cut out like the entire third quarter... but still, it killed me. Ugh.
Re: my post at 2:11, this'll do nicely for the 1990 controversy.
http://www.umgoblue.com/Old/HTML/Football/90/90UMMSU.htm
A good point just came to me... when we dominated OSU throughout the 90's, it never got boring or old or less heated. That's how you know it's a great, hate filled rivalry. MSU and, especially, ND can't match that.
1. Ohio State (they are our big rival, and I will never like them).
2. MSU (I like Sparty, which probably puts me in the minority, as I like both Michigan and Michigan State. What is most infuriating to me as a Michigan grad is that Sparty fans don't realize that they are a rival, not the rival).
3. ND (I think we hate them because they are so much like us - good school, great tradition. Charlie Weiss and Lou Holtz are easy to not root for, though.)
... darker than a black steer's tucchus on a moonlight prairie night.
That post was like looking into the darker corners of my soul ... you (and I?) might need therapy, but I understand the sentiment. Not saying it's right but ... I understand. Nicely done.
I agree with Brabbs... it was like seeing my darkest secrets displayed in blog form.
I fucking hate everything about Notre Dame.
One thing that complicates matters for me is the relative obnoxiousness of each school's fan base as a product of its team's success.
That is, OSU fans will ALWAYS be mouth-breathing, somewhat delusional fanboys who think the BUCKS will OWN THE STINKBEARS even when they're on their way to 7-6. It matters not what OSU's record is - the obnoxiousness of their fan base remains constant.
Notre Dame is an interesting case, in that as haughty and obnoxious as their fans are, I detect a bit of pathos in their delusion. Even in the 12th year of predicting that the Return to Glory is just around the corner, part of me believes that there is a touch of sadness and desperation to the most boastful Irish bullshit for as long as true prominence eludes them. If god forbid they ever do return to elite status, we may have to stab our eyes out with forks. Though at first glance it may seem they're already at the saturation point of obnoxiousness, more success for the Irish would be fucking disastrous for my blood pressure.
Which brings us to MSU. To me, the calculus has changed since Dantonio's been there, since he's a truly distasteful SOB - kinda like Woody without the mystique, the truly unhinged lunacy or the bona fides. Time was, I didn't mind MSU's success, but now I pretty much want them to lose every game, except maybe those against OSU and ND. Their fans might be the least knowledgeable of all three being considered here, and the "fuck football anyway, we're a basketball school" whenever the gridiron isn't treating them well is annoying/cowardly/typical. One thing that can be said about OSU and ND is that their fans are loyal and one cannot accuse them of harboring an inferiority complex (or, one might say, a true conception of reality.) When State wins, all the hatred for Michigan comes out in a steady stream of Coors-Light laced obnoxious vitriol - made all the more obnoxious by the level of bandwagonnery that characterizes the MSU football fan.
So, while I hate OSU the most, and ND second most ... I'd rather see OSU be successful than either of the other teams. When things are fairly even between us and OSU, I'd rather lose to them than either of the other two teams (though our present losing streak demands immediate rectification.) I just can't decide whether I'd rather lose to Sparty or the Irish.
"we may have to stab our eyes out with forks. Though at first glance it may seem they're already at the saturation point of obnoxiousness, more success for the Irish would be fucking disastrous for my blood pressure."
Well put, and ROFL.
Yes, I hope ND will not become prominent for a while, at least until RR has UM at the top. I forgot how insufferable ND was under Holtz. Perhaps because they are now border-line pathetic, it has taken the bloom off the rivalry. IIRC, Irish fans, when actually competing for the MNC, are incredibly more irritating, infuriating, and insufferable, than MSU fans ever are. I remember how delicious it was going to a Michigan Victory in SB about 20 years ago.
Well said.
After taking many classes in Kines with the football players, that their main rival (and other student athletes as well) was with MSU. When we would discuss OSU, they would always mention respect, a tough opponent, and all of that. That made it seem like the hatred was more between the fan bases. When talk would turn to MSU however, that is when many players started to talk in more personal, "F*&k them" type of tones. Even the student athletes from out of state seemed to have bought in very heavily to the MSU rivalry.
Is that, at least against Michigan, MSU players pull more cheap shots and dirty plays. OSU v. Michigan is full of some fearsome hitting, but cheap shit is rare.
Any interview with Larry Foote provides you some anecdotal evidence to support this notion. I like when he signs off with "And MSU - y'all still suck" even when it doesn't have anything to do with what he was just talking about.
1. OSU- Obviously the world stops for this game. We hate them, they hate us, end of story. I'd rather win against OSU than win the MNC (although obviously beating OSU is virtually a requirement for getting to the MNC). I want them to be good all year so that it hurts more when we win.
2. ND- HATE them and their arrogance. The big whale helps me hate them more, but they've been returning to glory since before I was in college, so until that happens I think of them like playing a good MAC/Big ten team. I want them to be bad all year so that the media stops falating them.
3. MSU- Until this year I felt sorry for them. I'd love to hate them more, but honestly if they hadn't won this year it would have meant they were really irrelevant. After we play them I sort of don't care about them, but it's painful to watch their mid-season collapse every year.
Nd I really hate, dislike, and despise.People say we are arrogant but these guys take the cake. Having grown up in Indiana, I know that nd fan base better than a lot because they are numurous and obnoxious. We taught them the game and they don't give their masters the respect we deserve.
OSU Same as the above, but their fans might be a little worse in the end.
MSU when they start winning consistently enough, I ill take them seriously. 1 good team every 7 seasons does not equal a true rivalry for us.
When I get text messages from my uncle everyday about x number days it’s been since Michigan last beat Ohio State it starts to piss me off then it gets old. So that being said
1. OHIO STATE, I hate no program or fans more than I do them!
2. notre dame second only because I think were’ more prestigious then they. We’ve won more games and have a higher winning percentage; we’re number 1 hands down (not right now of course)
3. I never thought of msu as a real rival. I view them as more of a “lil brother.” Woopty-Doo they’ve won like one game in the last ten years; however since they “own Michigan,” now I guess we should take them more seriously (ha).
real talk ... i like Sparty. I almost went to MSU. obviously I want M to beat them ... but I can't hate them.
No sugar coat?
no sugarcoating here. all natural ingredients. just epinion. etc and so on. qed. ipso facto.
I think this question reveals one of the biggest differences between instate Michigan students/fans and East Coast guys and gals like me: Michiganders seem to have a special seething hatred for the other state school.
Michigan State's hatred of us is well documented, but a lot of my friends from Grand Rapids or West Bloomfield or Flint or whatever will immediately bark, "God, I hate State so much, they are so annoying," whenever the topic of rivalry comes up. Me? I've literally never met a State fan outside of the school year, and as a result, I don't hate Michigan State in the least. I recognize them as a rival, and an important one at that, but I don't harbor any negative emotions or associations with the school, its fans, or its students outside of athletic competition.
The same, actually, goes for Ohio State, because although I've met more of their fans than I have State's, every time I do, they are friendly and courteous and invariably insist that Michigan will be back on top in no time. I think their message board cretins leave an indelible mark of perpetual disgust in our minds, but from what I can tell of the Ohio State fans that I've met, I'm pretty sure a lot of them don't hate our guts and maybe even pull for us in our bowl games and March Madness games. My high school principal was an Ohio State graduate, and when he left for Trinity College in Connecticut during my junior year, I bought him a Michigan necktie as a joke. He wore it on his last day on the job.
So when it comes to those two schools, I always root for Michigan State when they're not playing us, and I root for Ohio State in their bowl games to represent the Big Ten well.
MORE IMPORTANTLY:
Here is another important aspect of the East Coast disconnect. Just as I don't despise Michigan State fans like my Michigan friends do, they don't revile Penn State fans like I do. I see a handful of these turds every day, and without fail, the ones that I've met cannot address a Michigan fan with even a modicum of class or decency. A startlingly large number of them, for example, insist on pronouncing Lloyd Carr's name "Lllllllloyd"--every time they say it--"because he's good for at least 3 losses a year, bro!" They are infatuated with their own shitty jokes and moronic broseph self-congratulations. I've heard that most of the beef with Michigan State stems from their students' tendency to be insufferable DudeBros; I can assure you, at least in DC, Penn State fans are worse. They are the dictionary definition of dicks. I often wear a Michigan shirt to the gym; there is a Penn State fan, minimum 35 years old, who consistently asks, "Bro, aren't you ashamed to wear that in public, bro?" And I swear to God he goes for a high five every time. Goddammit.
As for Notre Dame, I have a rather complicated hatred of them. Some of their fans are truly in the top 1% of niceness; every year my dad wagers a case of some really shitty beer with our ND graduate neighbor, and he's always really congenial about the rivalry. But some of their fans are like Penn State fans on steroids; nothing in the world can convince them that Notre Dame is not the premier institute of higher learning in the universe, and that God Himself does not favor Notre Dame above all other bodies of learning. These people are so incredibly difficult to hate because they are impenetrable. They don't have thick skin; on the contrary, one negative comment about the beloved golden dome and they will go to war. But they are just so stupid that you can't even have a dumb strawman argument with them. And that's no fun. Plus, I'm a practicing Catholic, and Notre Dame represents everything wrong and stupid and antiquated about the Catholic church, so there's some extra sauce coming from that direction.
This was a great rundown of the out of state student's mindset... but I must ask, with that said, do you view Ohio State as our biggest rival?
Absolutely. The Ohio State University is the University of Michigan's biggest rival; I think anyone would be hard-pressed to argue otherwise. I simply don't hate them the most.
1) osu... it's OSU. last game of the year, for the B10 title. fans who seem to fit in the SEC mold than B10. they are the opposite of M, in just about every way.
2) nd.... totally an out of state thing. everyone's default team is ND. especially if they are catholic. never got more shit than after a loss to ND. except for CU94 and the webber timeout. they are a religious, private institution which historically has meant exclusionary practices. plus, they have some exceptionally douchy fans .
3) msu... i don't care. i've met some really great people from msu. unfortunately, these people never go to football games or anything, apparently. the only thing that gets tiresome is the 'we're not little brother' -stuff. they are so little brother, they have no way of detecting it. it's like a fish... never aware of the water they swim in.
Could care less about ND or MSU.
This calls for a Rehashening, wherein we take out our old hash, re-heat, and serve.
The old hash:
Michigan State is our Little Brother. Closer. Ever-present. Ever-annoying. Not in the same class at school though, so outside of the home and environs, remains pretty much private. We know each others' dirty laundry, and how to push each others' buttons. We're judged by the same parents, whose greater patience for the little bro and greater expectations for us are a constant strain, since we actually care more what our parents think than bro does. We are his constant measuring stick, and we -- though we hate admitting it -- are constantly looking over our shoulders, constantly forced to justify our considerable advantages in experience and development. We will always be the older brother, but with each passing year the difference seems that much smaller.
Michigan State is Ike.
Notre Dame is that other good-at-everything snob in our class. He's Catholic, and we compete for rep and everything, but in the end we also have a begrudging respect for each other. Mostly.
Notre Dame is Stan.
Ohio State is the big bully in the class. He's the kid who would have fit in well with that school of delinquents in the district to the South. He's the one who waits after school to steal everyone's lunch money. We are diametrically opposed to this kid. For every value we hold dear, he flaunts, and vice versa. Because the Catholic kid is too good to get involved, we feel it is up to us to stand up to this bully kid for the rest of the class.
Ohio State is Eric Cartman.
Ranking rivalries is ultimately futile, I think. You can rate intensity, I guess, but since rivalries ultimately mirror human relationships (albeit rather juvenile ones), they, rivalries, are going have as many quirks as the people (or fan bases) they belong to.
Notre Dame is that other good-at-everything snob in our class. He's Catholic, and we compete for rep and everything, but in the end we also have a begrudging respect for each other. Mostly.
Notre Dame is Stan.
Ohio State is the big bully in the class. He's the kid who would have fit in well with that school of delinquents in the district to the South. He's the one who waits after school to steal everyone's lunch money. We are diametrically opposed to this kid. For every value we hold dear, he flaunts, and vice versa. Because the Catholic kid is too good to get involved, we feel it is up to us to stand up to this bully kid for the rest of the class.
Ohio State is Eric Cartman.
Ranking rivalries is ultimately futile, I think. You can rate intensity, I guess, but since rivalries ultimately mirror human relationships (albeit rather juvenile ones), they, rivalries, are going have as many quirks as the people (or fan bases) they belong to.+ Eleventy billion.
I wonder if Notre Dame would work better as Wendy. She's more of a rival for Kyle. But then who's Stan? Is it Wisconsin?
Penn State: Craig
Iowa: Butters
Purdue: Clyde
Northwestern: Pip
Wisconsin: Stan
Illinois: Tweek
Indiana: Token
Minnesota: Timmy
Eastern: Towelie
WMU & CMU: Terrance & Philip
Harvard: Other Kyle
Kick the baby!
I would have gone with Minnesota as Kyle's mom and Toledo as Timmy, but not bad overall. Perhaps Bebe as Miami of Ohio (NTMOO)?
Though Eastern really is the worst character ever. And Purdue as Clyde is beyond perfect.
From Wikia entertainment:
Clyde Donovan, (formerly Clyde Goodman and once incorrectly called Clyde Harris), voiced by Trey Parker, is one of the Four's Classmates. He cries often and is one of the less intelligent members of the class.Yep, sounds like Purdue alright.
1) OSU - time honored hatred / respect between the perennial top two programs in the Big Ten. Rude, obnoxious fans, cheating shady coach in a sweater vest. It still amazes me that nothing ever came of the whole Clarett fiasco and allegations. Even more reason to hate them. Always cheer against them, no matter who they play.
2) ND - this is largely based on the arrogance of the ND fan base who think the school and program are holier than tho and "entitled" to greatness. I also hate Carlie Tuna, also in large part due to his arrogance, and the watered-down schedule that they play. I was in South Bend when UM rolled them in 2006 and never saw so many grown men cry in one single afternoon. I come from an Irish-Catholic family with cousins who are alumni, and I hate when I have to face them at Christmas after a Michigan loss! Again, root against them no matter who they play.
3) MSU - no real hatred here other than the fan base, who see us as their #1 rival and refuse to realize we don't view them the same. Agree with earlier posts that this match up is intensified due to proximity, but Sparty hasn't been on our level for quite some time. If the school was located in Indiana or Ohio, probably wouldn't even care. Root for Sparty against OSU and ND.
The team that is the most satisfying to beat: OSU.
The team that is the absolute worst/most embarassing to lose to: MSU.
The team that I just can't stand the most: ND.
I think this pretty much nails it for me, too.
There is a key distinction to be made here.
To me, MSU falls at the bottom of both lists. Yes, I'm from out of state, but this is the way I think it should be for all Michigan fans. M-ND and M-OSU are big time rivalries not just regionally, but nationally. M-MSU simply isn't a nationally recognized rivalry (something akin to a "backyard brawl" or whatever the pundits want to call it).
With that in mind, I rank OSU and ND differently in rivalry vs hate.
OSU goes at the top of my rivalry rankings for all of the obvious reasons. The history, the bitterness, the Big 10 championship usually being at stake, etc, etc. In fact, it is good for the rivalry when OSU is good because it is good for the Big 10, makes the game at the end of the season more meaningful, and generally makes us look better if we win - so outright hate is less productive here. (I will admit that I resent having batteries and piss bombs thrown at me whenever I go to The Game in Columbus.)
HOWEVA, Notre Dame always has been and always will be at the pinnacle of my hate pyramid. They have no redeeming qualities. I have a few good ND friends, but outside of that circle, really find their fans' attitudes unbearable (as they probably feel towards us). I could watch ND go 0-12 year after year after year after year and it would NEVER get old. Even if it hurt our strength of schedule, I wouldn't mind one bit if the game was just an annual beat down. Them losing doesn't hurt the reputation of the Big 10 or of Michigan, and can only help us in other areas like recruiting and fan base expansion.
Good day, fighting irish. I hope you never win another one.
Look there are no books written about the Michigan / MSU rivalry. There are no HBO Sports Documentaries about it. Agree that MSU is a rivalry, but it doesn't register compared to OSU and ND.
While I acknowledge that OSU is our biggest rival, I despise Notre Dame, relish each time we beat them, and always root for their ruination. It's probably based in the fact that they are the only fans/team/tradition I've ever encountered more pompous than us with numbers to back it up.
OSU is a very close second but I always find the Bucks a little amusing just because their entire existence seems to center around hating us. Obnoxious and sometimes dangerous, but they still ultimately come off as silly people, and I tend to feel sorry for silly people rather than hate them.
Speaking of feeling sorry for people.....MSU is a pretty distant third just because I can never take them seriously. D'Antonio has amped up the enmity in the past few years, but they still have to prove it on the field before they get my attention.
As a child in Ann Arbor I watched my grandparents raise three flags on the front porch every autumn weekend. Grandma is a Sparty, Gramps is a ND undergrad/UM postgrad working for UM, and both of them follow their teams passionately. So as much as I hate the majority of ND and MSU fans and coaches, I can't bring myself to wish sadness on my loved ones. I cheer for ND and MSU against anyone except Michigan or Northwestern.
Lest you think me too generous or insufficiently bloodthirsty, I assure you that my hatred of OSU knows no bounds. I want to see them lose, on any day, in any sport, to anyone.
To me, there can be no true rivalry unless both sides hold up their end of the bargain. If a team only beats you one out of every three games, it is hard to see the game as a "rivalry game." Usually, the team that gives you the most painful losses is the team that you see as a rival. The long tradition counts, too, and games that become "legendary" in the eyes of many also help a rivalry flourish.
So, I would rate OSU as the top rivalry, followed by ND and MSU.
OSU is close to .500 with UM, especially since the Bo era started. So many of the games have taken on "legendary" status that is isn't even a close race to me. And the hatred that Ohio people have for all things Michigan is astounding. From vandalizing cars to harassing UM fans to Ohio State Troopers ticketing cars with Michigan plates for going a half-mile an hour over the speed limit on gameday, Ohioans and their hatred definitely ratchet the rivalry to the highest possible level.
I would rate ND as second. They are pretty much even against UM, but there isn't nearly as much tradition as there is with OSU, and the losses aren't as painful because they happen at the beginning of the year and not the last game of the regular season.
MSU has to be ranked third, because they just don't deliver enough wins to justify their posturing. If MSU can actually keep a decent coach long enough to have a consistently good program, they may be able to beat UM enough to take over second place. Also, ND has been terrible lately. Sadly, though, even a ND program below their historic standards somehow finds a way to hold its own against UM.
At any rate, most teams see UM as a lot more of a rival than UM does them.
except Cedar Point. And even it tried to escape at one time. That's why it juts out into Lake Erie. I hate the fuckin' Indians, I hate the Browns. Don't get me started on the fact that they have a god damned hockey team. So yeah, I think OSU is UM's biggest rival.
Notre Dame is the epitome of over-rated. Or maybe over-exposed. When ever I see Lou "keebler" Holtz, I want to slap him out of his Social Security benefits. And that fucking "touchdown Jesus". Is he really signaling a TD or screaming, "Oh Father, why have you foresaken me and made watch these arrogant a-holes compare every fucking QB recruit to fucking Joe Montana!"?
MSU is just funny. Their fans care more about Michigan losing that the Spartans winning. I don't hate MSU, I just don't care.
All I want is for Michigan to win every week.