LJ

September 10th, 2015 at 9:19 AM ^

Pretty hard to take an article seriously when you see this quote:

 

In the last decade, many college football teams have embraced a form of offense that runs at a furious tempo with no breaks for huddles, the goal being to grind down and exhaust the defense. Teams that play this way don’t bother trying to fool their opponents with complex schemes and trickery, they just bull forward as fast as they can.

LJ

September 10th, 2015 at 9:30 AM ^

I'm still kind of dumbfounded when the NFL guys say "this QB is not ready for the NFL because the system he played under in college was so effective and easy to execute that he didn't ever have to learn how to do all these really hard-to-execute things I want him to learn."  It's pretty shocking the response is not "why aren't we using this really easy-to-execute system?"

I know no one wants to expose the QB to injury by running him (though the evidence that the injury potential is much greater remains scant).  I think someone is eventually going to run a pretty effective NFL team using a few reletively cheap, effective spread option QBs, and not freaking out so much about the "franchise QB" thing.

I Like Burgers

September 10th, 2015 at 11:54 AM ^

"Wait until he gets a guy like Cam Newton" -- this is why you don't see more of it in the NFL.  In the NFL, you're a lot more reliant on luck in getting the right QB for your system.  You have to hope you can win a free agency battle or that the right QB falls to you in the draft (and that you can afford to draft a QB instead of filling other holes on the roster).  And that's only if you and your GM are on the same page (or are the same person in Philly's case).  In college, you can go out and target QBs and stockpile them while you develop them.  You don't have that same level of luxury in the NFL.

Blue_sophie

September 10th, 2015 at 12:48 PM ^

Foles was probably the best QB of the bunch (at the time Chip was coaching him), and he was a third round draft pick with a bit of a glass jaw. Butt-fumble? Michael Vic's broken body? We will see if Bradford is still seeing ghosts every time he takes a snap. All of these guys are back-ups or marginal starters on ANY team.

Cam, of course would be fantastic; so would Luck (but those guys would kill it wherever they played, regardless of the system). I am more curious how Kaepernick would work out—an average quarterback, probably not the greatest football IQ, but supremely athletic. Harbaugh really worked wonders with him.

Actually, now that I think of it Jim Harbaugh would have been a PERFECT QB for Chip Kelly! Imagine if he had been able to really concentrate on 30 designed runs/game. He could have willed his team to victory.

mrkid

September 10th, 2015 at 10:18 AM ^

The argument that I always hear is that NFL defenses are too intelligent and start to figure these things out quicker than they do in college where every defensive player isn't NFL caliber.

Everyone is bigger, faster, stronger and smarter in the NFL where fewer mistakes are made, which is what a lot of those spread, fast tempo offenses prey on, get the defense players in a position to decide quickly and force a mistake.

The example people use is the wildcat, how that was short lived and now people are saying the read-option is going that way too but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

mrkid

September 10th, 2015 at 10:46 AM ^

Agreed. It seemed like the easiest play to defend and obvious what was coming.

The NFL is a funny thing how, dual threat QBs don't work because they get injured so often but they don't in college. I always wondered if they played two more years at the college level if they would break down too and the only reason it doesn't "work" in the NFL is because guys breakdown, not because of the harder/more hits in the NFL but because of the natural progression of their bodies breaking down.

jmblue

September 10th, 2015 at 2:57 PM ^

It's both.  NFL defenses do hit harder - facing NFL defenses is like playing Alabama 16 times a year -  and their players are older with more wear and tear on their bodies.

Reader71

September 10th, 2015 at 10:45 AM ^

A few more: Hybrid space players (spread busters, as we like to think of Peppers) are pretty common in the NFL. In fact, as defenses continue the trend of slimming down to get faster, basically everyone behind the defensive line is a hybrid space player. They tackle well in space, and they close down spaces very, very quickly. Also, running the football is just really, really hard in the NFL. Every defensive coordinator tries to stop the run, and all but the worst teams do that pretty well. 1600 yard rushers AR very, very rare, and that's 100 yards a game. In college, even before the spread, 100 yards a game wasn't anything special. Couple that with the rules that make passing so advantageous, and the smartest way to win is through the air. DBs can't touch anyone. Flags for hitting defenseless receivers have opened up the middle of the field in major ways. Quarterbacks are protected to the nth degree. I'd argue that just like college punting rules pretty much mandate the shield punt, NFL rules mandate a passing offense (which is a reason I watch maybe 5 NFL games a season). And running opens your million-dollar passer up to injury. I think the spread would work fine in the NFL, but I don't ever think it will become the mainstream offense. The offenses will just co-opt some principles and plays.

Michigan4Life

September 10th, 2015 at 9:49 AM ^

high expectations on a QBs. If you look at every decade, there's 4 great QBs and 4 good QBs. The rest are either meh or sucks. This is no different than any other decades.

It's hard to find great QBs because they have certain qualities that other QBs lack.

Magnus

September 10th, 2015 at 9:38 AM ^

The complex schemes are certainly there, but I have seen some college, hurry-up teams who don't vary their offenses a whole lot. Some spread teams are zone read option, zone read option, zone read option, zone read option, etc. Other offenses get boring, too (like Michigan's offense last year, for example) but not all spread/hurry-up teams are extremely innovative.

DamnYankee

September 10th, 2015 at 10:29 AM ^

and Randy Cross (Former 49'er All Pro lineman) is part of a morning sports talk show here.  He commented on this extensivley this morning.  He said he has friends in the Jets organization that talked about Bryce Petty not being able to identify pro defenses and couldn't pick out the Mike linebacker when he first got to the Jets camp.  He said that instead of being taught to read defenses, some of the college "systems" only teach how to read the receivers in relation to their space on the field ( I am paraphrasisng a 10 minute conversation).  He believes this is also one of the reasons RG III has had such a tough time in the NFL.  He said that while these are very effective offenses in college because they get playmakers in space, they don't necessarily teach the required nuances of the NFL quarterbacks.  He emphatically stated he is not "anti-spread" because the offenses are fun to watch and make the game exciting -- but feels they don't adequately prepare QB's for the NFL.

 

Magnus

September 10th, 2015 at 10:52 AM ^

As someone who has taught a variety of offenses, I will say that the spread offense is predicated largely on creating space based on formations. It is different in that respect than, say, pro-style I-formation, veer option, Wing-T, etc. It's fun to teach in some ways because of all the formations and fancy things you can do, but you also miss out on some fundamentals because you spend so much time introducing new formations, motions, etc.

Reader71

September 10th, 2015 at 10:56 AM ^

I think the #1 problem has been the trend for offenses to get each play from the sideline. It is such a good thing in college because it makes everything easier for the QB. He doesn't have to read the front and check into a play, he doesn't have to read the coverage pre-snap per se. You could argue that the NFL should just go that route, but the play clock is quicker, so that might be hard. It also limits how many personnel groupings the offense can use. The spread tends to favor 11 personnel, so they have a ton of plays to call from the same formation. NFL teams don't want to limit their personnel groupings, because they use them for mismatches all the time. And, I would argue, even if the NFL did go that route, they would be doing a disservice to their QBs. Handicapping guys like Rodgers, Manning, and Brady in this way would only minimize the advantage they present in being another coordinator out there.

funkywolve

September 10th, 2015 at 11:18 AM ^

but I kind of took the quote about complex schemes being about the passing games in the spread offenses in college.  How often is Cardale Jones going through 3 or 4 progressions before he finds an open receiver?  How often is say Cardale Jones going to the line of scrimmage, seeing how the defense is lined up and adjusting the play call based upon the allignment of the defense?

In terms of the second question, it's almost never.  The coaches on the sideline or in the booth do that and either relay in a new play or stick with what was called.  Now, to combat this I guess the NFL could try to start getting the offense to the los earlier and just let the coaches determine whether to change the play or not.

CompleteLunacy

September 10th, 2015 at 10:03 AM ^

The fact that Chip Kelly has had success with his system means that the old adage "the spread can't work in the NFL" is hilariously wrong. The NFL has a QB problem because it stubbornly refuses to adapt its offenses to accommodate the new types of QB that are coming into the NFL. The fact that they still think the spread doesn't work is dumb.

And I say all that as someone who doesn't necessarily think the spread is the End-all be-all of offense for football (pro style will not become obsolete any time soon)...but as someone who thinks why the hell cant it work?!?

Reader71

September 10th, 2015 at 11:13 AM ^

Yes, but. There is no doubt that what pro-style has come to mean is "elaborate passing schemes". Most spread-to-run teams feature none of this. By and large, they favor horizontal spacing, which makes sense because they formations are so spread. That's why you see so many hitches, bubble screens, etc. I don't think these guys mean that the spread is not complex, but that the passing game for most spread teams is not. And I think they are right. Even the passing spreads aren't very complex. Leach installs his entire offense in 3 days. Passing spreads have created guys like RGIII, Petty, Kellen Moore, etc. All great in the system, none ready for the NFL passing game. And I think the NFL passing game is valuable and worth being sort of rigid about. They shouldn't go to the air raid just to fit the QBs. Defenses are too good to be consistently beaten by 3-day offenses. Their practice time, film study, and such are unlimited compared to in college.

CompleteLunacy

September 10th, 2015 at 11:47 AM ^

This makes total sense.

I feel like, knowing this, the NFL needs to learn how to draft & develop smarter. If these guys who had great success at the college level aren't near prepared to handle the NFL level of complexity, then teams need to stop wasting first draft picks on them and they definitely have to stop expecting these guys to have instant success in the NFL.

Reader71

September 10th, 2015 at 1:06 PM ^

Bingo. Look at RG3. In his first season, they really tailored the offense to him. Shotgun, spread formations, some read option, and almost no downfield passing. I read somewhere, maybe Football Insiders, that he had the highest percentage of 0-10 yard passes in the league. That is, they basically ran a spread passing outfit - hitches, screens, the horizontal stuff. Something like 50% of his attempts were within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. And they had some success as a pure spread team. His numbers were very close to Luck's, but the site was saying Luck had the far better season because he was asked to do more in the passing game. But Griffin got hurt and slowed down which took away one threat from the defense. All of a sudden, the short stuff wasn't enough. And now they are left with a guy who just can't beat teams down the field in a league where that is a necessity. The problem is that they should probably have never dumbed down their offense, because it only hurt them and Griffin in the long haul. But the coach will be fired if he doesn't win, and the GM is next, especially if the QB they traded everything for isn't ready to go right away.

OlafThe5Star

September 10th, 2015 at 9:22 AM ^

Very interesting...

Petty admits to grappling with tasks such as hearing and calling the play, identifying defensive backs in coverage and identifying which player in the defensive backfield was the “mike” linebacker, the central part of the defense whose location teams base their offensive line protections on. “As crazy as it sounds, at Baylor, we did not point out the ‘mike’ linebacker,” Petty said.

 

pdgoblue25

September 10th, 2015 at 9:20 AM ^

when considering this issue.

It's obvious that the spread quarterback experiment in the NFL is a failure.  The QBs either are forced to adapt, or face injury.

Michigan will be in a prime spot for recruiting QBs who intend to have a future in the NFL.

Wolverine In Exile

September 10th, 2015 at 9:31 AM ^

Most teams now have spread concepts built into some packages (see Seattle, NE, etc), but the coordinators in the NFL are less accustomed to calling the variations / counters off it which make the packages successful in college. It's much like how people called the "run n shoot" a failure after Houston crapped out in the Frank Reich playoff game, but in reality most teams had adapted a run n shoot package into their base structure.

M-Dog

September 10th, 2015 at 9:43 AM ^

The NFL will be lining up at Michigan's door for game-ready QBs.  It bodes well for recruiting when that starts to snowball.  

If you are an elite QB with your eyes on the NFL, why wouldn't you want to come here?  I could not think of a single better place to learn the craft of NFL-QB than Michigan.

oriental andrew

September 10th, 2015 at 9:23 AM ^

 

You can't coach 6'4", 240 pounds (Luck; and P. Manning and Roethlisberger are even taller and heavier) nor 4.5 speed in the 40 (Luck again, along with RGIII). But you can coach technique, pocket presence, and reading defenses. Luck had the good fortune of being coached and mentored by a 15-year NFL quarterback in Jim Harbaugh before leaving Stanford for the pros. All he's done is take a team that went 2-14 the year before he arrived and posted three straight seasons of 11-5 and playoff berths.

 

MChem83

September 10th, 2015 at 9:23 AM ^

Harbaugh, Grbac, Collins, Dreisbach, Griese, Brady, Henson, Navarre, Henne..all drafted and IIRC, all started in the NFL except Navarre. Most were not great, but many were at least decent. Now spread/dual threat QBs are the thing in college FB, but they just don't last in the NFL. They're injury prone, and those kinds of gimmicky offenses don't work for long. Marcus Mariota was a hot draft pick, but no way does he have the career of a Brady, Manning or Rodgers.