When's the last time the OL and DL both been the strength on each side of the ball for us?
I'm not saying we're completely devoid of highly talented skill players. Obviously we got guys like Josh Ross and Dax Hill and our RB's who are performing admirably and at times like stars. But it definitely appears we're gonna rely on dominant trench play to win games. So what year was both the OL and DL this overachieving like this that you can think of? I gotta say it mirrors 2011 quite a bit in that regard
October 12th, 2021 at 6:17 PM ^
I don't feel as though we are overachieving. Maybe exceeding expectations, but I personally felt as though expectations were too low.
The fact is that both lines are filled with 4* players who are in their second, third, fourth, and fifth years. Filigia and Jeter were both 4* in the 2017 class. Steuber was a 3* in that class but he's in his 5th year so thus very experienced. Hutchinson and Hayes were both 4* in the 2018 class. Hinton, Smith, Keegan, Ojabo were 4* in 2019 class. Mike Morris was a high 3* in the 2019 class. Zinter was a 4* in the 2020 class. So the only non 4* getting significant time on either line is Vastardis. Everyone else is a 4* who is performing to expections of 4* players. I guess you could point out the lack of 5* players on the lines...but that would be picking at nits.
Too many people were judging these players based on early-career performance...and not taking in to account that the strongest line play usually comes from upperclassmen...due to development of technique and strength.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:20 PM ^
The development is what many were seriously questioning considering Warriner's departure and Moore's inexperience. That being said, yup, they have been a pleasant - and necessary - surprise.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:27 PM ^
Also, we were judging them based on last year which was a disaster.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:36 PM ^
Exactly. When you have top 100ish guys like Aiden Hutchinson and Mazi Smith and a five-star (which we rarely have) in Hinton, it's not exactly overachieving. It's just meeting expectations which should have been this high but were lower because of injuries and inexperience last year.
Perhaps one could argue the offensive line is slightly overachieving because we're getting high quality out of a walk-on center but everyone else is mostly meeting (high) expectations. They're all four stars with experience.
October 12th, 2021 at 10:10 PM ^
I am among those who significantly underestimated both lines. I didn’t have confidence in Nua or Moore. I didn’t have much more confidence in the coaches above them. Thus, despite age, I didn’t envision much development.
Here’s hoping they show even more improvement against MSU/PSU/OSU
October 13th, 2021 at 9:27 AM ^
FWIW: Hinton was a 5 star, so there is at least one on one side of the lines
Stueber and Vastardis, two of the lowest ranked, are also two of the best. Major props to Vastardis for taking the starting C role as a 2 star. It's been a good year.
October 13th, 2021 at 9:56 AM ^
It seems like OL is a position where it's hard to project eventual play level. Traditionally teams tried to redshirt all the OL because that would give them time to really master the position.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:25 PM ^
2016 somewhat, but yeah mostly 2011.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:55 PM ^
Was 2016 the year where our OL was decimated by knee injuries such that Harbaugh required them all to wear braces?
October 12th, 2021 at 10:54 PM ^
Yup. I was there when Grant Newsome almost lost his leg. That was 2016.
October 13th, 2021 at 9:00 AM ^
He was going to be so damn good. What a shame that he lost his chance at a career playing. Seems like a great guy!
October 13th, 2021 at 7:56 PM ^
I thought 2015 as well was pretty good across both fronts. Obviously the DL was the better of the two, but the OL did keep Rudock fairly healthy for much of the season. Rush numbers were stellar but with 5*/2* Derrick Green as the premiere running back. Well.... Still, Rudock set some Michigan passing records and you don't do that without giving the OL some credit.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:26 PM ^
I have a contrarian view here. Both OL and DL have done well so far and I know we're 6 games in. If you told me earlier this year we'd be 6-0 with 2 B1G road game wins I would have been super excited.
This is where the BPONE creeps in. I'm reserving my own judgement until after the MSU game. MSU has just been insanely good at exposing our team in some years. I think that game will be a good test this year as well. They got a bunch of transfers and they whooped us last year. If this team can beat MSU, the rest of the season is gravy for me. I want them to win out, but OSU is on another level for now.
Beat MSU and win a bowl game, and 2021 is a success. Hopefully recruiting picks up as well.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:29 PM ^
Oh, I have a bad baaaad feeling about MSU. Their WRs are better than our secondary and Walker III is legit. Even if we could stop Walker, I dont see us stopping both phases of their offense. We will need our beat offense for a shootout.
October 12th, 2021 at 6:33 PM ^
Just as long as the defense doesn't give up big plays. We'll be fine.
October 13th, 2021 at 10:17 AM ^
They will give up big plays. Our defense has done that all season. It is playing "bend but don't break" D which has carried this team. Our pass rush is good and I bet they just don't throw it near Dax. Let's face it, they can attack several players if they played today and win. Our run defense has been stout but MSU's OL seems pretty strong. I am really curious about MSU's run defense. If that is a notch below Nebraska then I think we have a chance. We need to do 3 things for my anxiety to disappear: 1) score points first; 2) have a lead at halftime; and 3) rush more than 100 yards. We probably need a turnover but with those 3 things we have a chance.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:21 PM ^
I think we’ll be able to run the ball effectively against state, eat clock and limit their possessions. I’m not as worried about Walker as most on here seem to be, but their receivers versus our secondary scare me.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:40 PM ^
you're not worried about the nation's leading rusher?
October 12th, 2021 at 8:06 PM ^
He’s run all over some very weak defenses. The one decent defense he’s faced - Nebraska - shut him down. He’s good, but not *that* good; he’ll get some yards, but the receivers are the bigger threat, imo
October 12th, 2021 at 8:25 PM ^
I am very worried that Thorne will throw 15 fades against our corners and see if they can stop it. I have no confidence that our corners would be able to.
Tho I think we should be able to generate pass rush that would limit that
October 13th, 2021 at 8:59 AM ^
Can their OL keep him clean long enough to *make* those throws though? And will he be able to even read our defense? A lot of QBs can't. We shall see
October 12th, 2021 at 9:32 PM ^
Their RB does not worry me. Our D should bottle their run game.
I’m more worried about their WRs and Thorne moving the chains on a few key broken plays with his feet. We are going to see misdirection in the pass game our LBs better be ready.
Our pass rush needs to get home
October 13th, 2021 at 5:40 AM ^
And from our perspective, the run D has been quite good. Nebraska got very little on the ground without going deep into the option frippery. No one else has really moved the ball consistently on else. The cornerbacks OTOH still look awfully shaky
October 12th, 2021 at 8:26 PM ^
Only moderately so. He was Wake Forest's #2 rusher last year behind Christian Beal-Smith. Beal-Smith is a good-to-great player and Wake does a great job finding and developing skill position players, but to say his back-up last year scares me, not so much. To me it would be like facing Charbonnet. A good player you gotta consider, but not someone who has me clutching my pearls.
October 12th, 2021 at 8:46 PM ^
He’s good, but he’s not Jonathan Taylor, think he can be contained
October 13th, 2021 at 2:16 AM ^
MSU had 12 yards in the second half against Nebraska. The Spartans have the 124th ranked pass defense. They aren't as bad as they seem statistically but their secondary is weak, If Cade can get a little more accurate and throw about 65% I like our chances. Their line is good at pressures and sacks but are average in other areas.
I expect Dax to get a lot of Reed which will leave Green or Grey on Nailor.
YST and Nebraska effectively shut down Walker. He's really god at breaking tackles. Miami had a moratorium on tackling and let him run free. He is stoppable. If we can keep him under 100 yards. I like our chances.
October 13th, 2021 at 8:35 AM ^
October 13th, 2021 at 6:50 PM ^
Cade needs to complete 65%? He’s not even doing that this season. He’s only at 60% overall this year and just 58% against conference foes. Not exactly bad but not great either, jumping to 65% might be expecting too much. Personally, I’m not confident he can get to 65% against Sparty. I hope I’m wrong though.
October 13th, 2021 at 4:01 AM ^
My takes are rarely hot enough to get negged but my bias may get me here. Being from Columbus nothing about Michigan State has ever worried me. I have no colleagues or peers from whom to cower if little bro gets a win in one of our average to below average years. I actually wanted them to win that final 4 playoff game, cause it wasn’t OSU and I knew their place their really was only because we ceded our position to them temporarily. Now the punt block. That shit hurt.
October 13th, 2021 at 11:22 AM ^
Even if we could stop Walker, I dont see us stopping both phases of their offense. We will need our beat offense for a shootout.
Maybe, but MSU has faced exactly one good defense: Nebraska, whom they scored 0 offensive TD's against, and put up a grand total of 12 yards in the second half.
We just put 32 on Nebraska on the road, we should be able to do similar to MSU. Assuming we don't completely melt down on D, this game is more in our favor than theirs
October 13th, 2021 at 12:36 PM ^
Nebraska completely shut them down in the second half. Most of the game really. And that's the only decent defense they've played all year (and also a weak secondary, arguably weaker than Ms).
Yes, their skill position players are really good but I'm not buying their OL and if your OL is getting whipped like it was against Nebraska, it doesn't matter how good your RB is cuz there won't be holes and it (almost) doesn't matter how good your WRs are because your QB won't have time to throw them the ball.
October 13th, 2021 at 9:03 AM ^
Going to be a dog fight in East Lansing. Really looking forward to that game. Win the LOS. Win the game.
October 13th, 2021 at 11:19 AM ^
MSU got a bunch of transfers and they whooped us last year
They beat a 2 - 4 Michigan team by 3, wasn't exactly a whooping.
If this team can beat MSU, the rest of the season is gravy for me. I want them to win out, but OSU is on another level for now.
I feel similar, but if we beat MSU and then lose to both OSU and PSU, it will likely sting more than losing to MSU and beating the other two, or simply beating OSU
October 12th, 2021 at 6:40 PM ^
1997.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:36 PM ^
I always felt the secondary, even outside of Woodson was our bread and butter unit on defense that year
October 12th, 2021 at 7:45 PM ^
I’ll never forget Keith Jackson (yes, he was not dead then) say during the telecast “the Wolverines front 4 are the Woodsmen of the defense. By the end of the day you might think they have chainsaws.” Brilliant!
October 12th, 2021 at 8:59 PM ^
Keith Jackson died?!
October 12th, 2021 at 9:38 PM ^
WTF…why has this been buried?
October 12th, 2021 at 10:10 PM ^
You think your comment is humorous? 'Round here, you gotta urn funny
October 12th, 2021 at 11:50 PM ^
Man I miss that guy
October 13th, 2021 at 4:58 AM ^
The D line was assume in the road game at Happy Valley!
October 12th, 2021 at 6:46 PM ^
Last time, I'd say probably 2011.
The OL wasn't exactly great under Drevno's leadership when the DL was one of the best in the country in 2016, and all of Hoke's OLs after 2011 were awful because Funk was also awful.
So 2011, final answer.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:04 PM ^
2016 until the Wisconsin cheap shot on Grant Newsome.
D-line was absolutely elite. Oline was really good, bordering on elite.
The Newsome injury ends up leading to a Speight injury, ends up leading to much closer contests in Iowa and the robbery in the Shoe. A healthy UM runs the table that year and has a legit shot against any team in the playoff. 2016 was Harbaugh's most complete team, elite corner play/safety play as well, and was primed to break through. That D-line had the horses to run with Bama, Clemson and any other team in the nation.
The Wisky cheap shot cost us the playoff and really derailed Harbaugh's tenure, as we didn't have the momentum or depth yet built to simply rebuild. The recruiting mojo and narrative could have been really different if 2016 finish with at least a playoff birth and perhaps even more.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:54 PM ^
That's some heavy revisionist history. You'd think Grant newsome was Jake long the way we talk about him here. He wasn't fully there yet and had lots of growth potential, but I don't see how that means we decline for 5 years after.
We have players dinged up this year on the ol. No excuses. We have depth
October 12th, 2021 at 8:30 PM ^
I'd split the difference. Sure Newsome wasn't Jake Long, but that's a straw man. He was an NFL-bound left tackle, and I think it's well within reason to think Speight isn't hurt if Newsome isn't on that play.
Of course, players get hurt and you move on, but NCAA football history would be different if certain teams had their key players/QBs more/less hurt in certain situations.
October 12th, 2021 at 8:17 PM ^
I was as disappointed with Newsome's injury as anyone else, but it wasn't a cheap shot. I really wish you guys would stop saying it was. It was a perfectly executed chop block - the same way its been taught for years, and is well within the rules. Unfortunately for Grant, his foot planted and refused to slide off the ground when hit. It was just shitty luck. That DB wasn't aiming to hurt Newsome - very much unlike later UW hits on QBs...
That said, I wish that rule would be changed to disallow chop blocks. They really are dangerous.
October 13th, 2021 at 1:02 PM ^
I'm pretty sure that all chop blocks (where teammates block a defender low and high at the same time) are illegal.
I think you are referring to cut blocks.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:27 PM ^
I don't know but that plus a competent QB is a recipe for success.
October 12th, 2021 at 7:28 PM ^
2006. 2016.