to play football, not to play trumpet
Was the OL horrendous tonight or merely not as good as the DL?
New avatar to keep Funk honest. Will change it if the O line is even remotely coherent vs. ND.
OL was bad. Especially at the beginning. Got better as scrimmage went on. OL ones looked hood against DL twos. DL ones destroyed OL twos. Mone got a lot of push on Bosch.
The DL looks legit.
OL looks marginally better than last year. But needs a lot of improvement.
ROCK ON DARRELL FUNK! EARN THAT PAYGRADE!
did the o-line look "hood" and from which hood?
I say it's because Peppers didn't play
Left offensive tackle while playing DE
at the same time.
After reading the tweets, I have to ask, are you SURE he didn't do this?
The twitter feed was scary. The pick by Gardner sounded similar to the linebackers video from the Countdown Day 14 series... A little pressure and a bad decision.
On the other hand, this is a blip and I am going to (at least temporarily) stay positive about this year. I still expect to be in a good spot come November with a chance down the stretch.
I didn't think the decision was bad at all. The throw wasn't great, but i though Funchess could have put more effort to get to the ball.
I am interested to see what others say. My family and I went. I don't want to overreact, but I am certainly concerned about the offensive line after what I saw.
It just seems like they have no . . . push. I don't know. I am hoping everyone else says our defensive line is just that good. . .
Didn't see this post coming.
Another question -- Were there any individual o-linemen who looked particularly good or bad? I get that the line as a whole struggled, but I'm curious about the individuals.
I saw mentioned thw overall play of an individual.
Said Kugler playing well with the 2's.
Could be needed... don't see Jack Miller as answer in middle.
I watched Jack Miller quite a bit and I thought he held his own . That being said, the only good run was a Gardner scramble.
That's good to hear about Miller, because I wasn't impressed with him last year. I didn't get to watch the scrimmage tonight, so I appreciate the insight.
Kugler did not look very good unfortunately, I thought he had a much better Spring Game. He got beat reapeatedly (althoughto be fair, the guys next to him were awful, so its hard to tell live) and curiously had some trouble snapping the ball.
Miller looked decent. He had a really impressive play where he chipped the NT with one arm and moved quickly out to the LB on one of the longer runs that really stood out. He's probably never going to be the guy that manhandles a 300+lb NT by himself, but it is what it is at this point. He was also solid in pass pro.
From twitter/open thread sounded like no push as a group.
God this scrimmage/offense had me second guessing my prediction of 10 wins.
I left much more concerned about the OL than I was heading in.
However, we would also be freaking out if the OL was dominating the DL.
Notes from the presser: Hoke wants to have the starting lineup in pen by Wednesday/Thursday.
Derrick Green is also the #1 RB, De'Veon 1A. However, none stood out tonight.
Funk needs to be replaced, we have done great in recruiting the talent but it seems like he cannot develop the players..Borges went first and Funk is up next
Something needs to occur. They can either decide that Rivals/Scout was horrifically wrong on every guy brought in, or that there might be a problem within the organization. I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic regression.
I was hoping Coach Nuss would help make up for whatever it is Coach Funk may be lacking. I really just feel like I don't see any aggression from the offensive line. Is that really something that can/needs to be taught?
This isn't an excuse, but a fact of life and the reason young OL usually aren't very good: it is hard to be aggressive when you aren't comfortable with your assignment or ability.
If you aren't 100% sure of what to do and how to do it and how you expect the defense to react, you go out there and catch the defender instead of hitting him. And if you don't feel you are fast enough or strong enough or good enough to beat the man across you, you just try to get in his way.
Only reps can fix this. This is what is meant when people say, "it clicks".
There has to be more to the story than just lack of reps, though. Cole came in and moved to the top of the depth chart in the spring before his freshman year. UM recruited a bunch of OG/OT swing players and it looks like pretty much all of them (Kalis, Bosch, Samuelson, Fox, etc.) have zero potential at OT. Where are the young studs? Where are the 2nd year players who are ready to start kicking tail, like many OL from UM's past?
Like I said, I'm not making excuses. The kids aren't ready yet. I'm just sharing a little of the psychology that goes with being a collegiate offensive lineman.
What I will say is that none of these kids as they are today would have started for most Michigan teams, but most Michigan teams wouldn't have to rely on more than 1 of them. We do, because we have 0 Sr and 2 Jr, one a former walk-on.
they have 3 seniors and 5 juniors. I don't how many of these, if any, are walk-ons, and which of them are just practice cannon fodder. Knowing Saban, I would guess he doesn't keep much of the latter around very long.
Many of the top rated recruits were not listed by anyone as being college ready, especially at the tackle position. Noboday was thinking LTT or others would be able to come in and dominate in year two. The only real exception to that was Kalis. So if you want cause for concern it would be Kalis.
and I've said this a long time, the biggest indictment of Funk is the performances of the players he hasn't coached. You look at the oline the first year. Most of those players were players that were developed under a different staff and was by far the best o-line we had since Hoke came. The unit as a whole has regressed since they came with the exception of a few individuals. Those individuals are players that, again, received most of their coaching/development prior to Funk arriving (Lewan and Schofield).
Fast forward to now and you see a new freshman who has been coached and developed by a high school coach leap to the starting position at left tackle. Meanwhile we have guys who have been in this system for three years now being coached by funk, watching him leap frog them and wondering what the hell is going on.
We've been hearing the excuse for the past 2 season that the guys are just too young (which I'm not discounting as not being legitimate to a degree) and yet Cole comes in and as a freshman is our #1 option at LT. I know there are always exceptions too, but this doesn't seem like that. It seems like our best chance at putting a decent o-line on the field is fielding anyone who hasn't been cursed by funky touch of Funk.
I said most of last year that I believed the problem wasn't just Borges, but Funk as well and we only got rid of half the problem. The o-line will continue to struggle until Funk gets his walking papers.
when no players step up and then bitch when someone does stand out in the first year because, dammit, a guy who was a high school player last year got such superior coaching that he can start for Michigan. The players who you don't feel developed enough in a year or two here prove failure by the players somewhat but mainly the coaching staff. The guys who were first and third round NFL picks were good enough to be first and third round picks four years ago and didn't develop or if they developed a little bit, it was on their own despite the terrible coaching.
These players are busting their asses out there to represent Michigan. We have people calling them failures when most OL don't play until their fourth or fifth year. They have a new coach and a new system to learn. The OC had to evaluate these guys to see who the right players are. We still don't know who the final unit is but we are fairly certain a couple didn't play much last night. They were playing against a defensive line that knows the plays and we know the coaches aren't going to show everything in a open scrimmage. The coaches will pick the final line this week and actually let them play together for a couple weeks so they can gel as a unit. Can we at least support them for a couple of weeks before we start throwing them under the bus?
I thought this scrimmage was a good idea but listening to some posters on here, I'm not so sure. No one would have expected this line to look good at all going into the scrimmage yet some start this huge uproar to fire Funk already. Maybe we should wait to see what the coaches actually put on the field for a game.
I agree that overall Funk has yet to produce a solid entire OL unit, but to assert that the success of Lewan and Schofield is entirely attributable to two years under Frey and had nothing to do with three years under Funk is illogical.
And Schofield never played a snap for anyone but Funk. We're reaching for straws here.
Whatever Nuss's impact will be won't be known until the season starts. Play calling during scrimmages, particularly public ones is going to be beyond vanilla.
Which then leads to uber aggressive defense.
The point made earlier in the thread is most relevant here...if the defense was getting pwned we'd be freaking out a lot more.
You thought the point of tonight was Mattison deciding "Oh, Nuss won't show much. Let's drown him like a fat two year old"?
Yes, that's why Hoke wanted an open scrimmage. The point was to make Nuss, Funk, and the OL look like shit.
I know you're not serious, but I do think it was intentional to throw a ton of pressure at the offense to get them more reps and help them learn to deal with it. They'll have all this on film and there will be lots of teaching moments they can pull from this and hopefully get things corrected.
Let's see how this season plays out before we run the guy out of town. We had a bad OL last year and lost our two best guys on it, no less. Meanwhile our DL is supposed to be very good. Given all that, should we have expected a strong performance by the OL in the middle of August?
FWIW, I thought it got a little better as the scrimmage went on. Let's see where we go from here.
Heck, let's give him a decade. Playing football is so darn complicated that he should get to groom multiple generations before he takes any liability for the performance of his players.
I'm just curious here. Were you calling for him to be fired after last season, or did you think he deserved another season but now have jumped ship, based on a scrimmage in mid-August?
As well as Borges they both should have been gone
Funk? Yeah, last season. Wasn't even that big of a secret. Read HTTV if you need affirmation on why I felt that way.
If that was your take, OK, I can't say we saw anything tonight that would have changed your mind. But I also don't think it was fair to expect to see much different tonight.
When is it?
If the OL is still a mess at season's end, I think he can be shown the door.
I just don't think August is the best time to evaluate an OL.
While I'm not suggesting that we do the same thing, a couple of years ago, Wisconsin was having O-line problems and fired their O-line coach two weeks after the season had started.
It takes a while for players on the O-line to gel. At the very least, two of the five starters are new and they are playing with a new scheme. From Hoke's comments, I think he sees things in practice that may not have shown up in yesterday's scrimmage. They still have two weeks before the start of the season and three weeks before the ND game. That's a long time as these things go, considering there has only been about a week or ten days of contact drills.
If there isn't substantial improvement in a month, all bets are off.
To expect to see a competent O line ?? He has been here long enough to get this line together, he has had the same amount of time as Borges and this line has not improved 1 bit, most of these guys have been here 2-3 years in the system and we can't run the ball consistently
I am not saying that he's done an awesome job to date or that the OL looked great tonight. What I am saying is that it's very common in the preseason for the defense to be ahead of the offense.
For the time being, don't freak out. It may be that our OL turns out to be bad all year. Or it may improve. We'll just have to wait and see.
New OC, now offense, new scheme. If this OL had been dominante last year they could reasonably be expected to look meh today. Time is needed for this crew to gel under the new scheme.
If I ever received it.
Regression from what?
Obviously Hoke wasn't afraid to let go of Borges, and I'm sure he would have let Funk go too if he thought that was the problem. Everyone is concerned about the OL, and it certainly won't be our strength, but can we at least see how it goes in a real game? We've still got 2 weeks, the OL is still young, our defense is going to be damn good, and time and again coaches always say the defense is ahead of the offense before the season.
Remember when the Lions went undefeated under Marinelli in the preseason in 2008, and then because the preseason, especially a damn scrimmage, reflects the team perfectly, the Lions just blasted everyone in the regular season and won the Super Bowl? Oh wait...
OL was pretty bad. Don't remember any RB getting any solid holes, and the QBs seemed to be under pressure all scrimmage.
The first and second team were vastly different, and the second team was out there the most. You can't really generalize like that, because while the second team did struggle mightily, the first team actually held their own, imo.
optimism about the offensive line! This will not be tolerated! (sarcasm)
Nice to hear something positive up here, I choose to believe you and will ignore any naysayers. It's better for my health this way.
Hoke had talked about Braden doing very well (being the first starter he kind of named). How'd he do specifically?
I'm not very sure if it was just Braden, but running to the right side seemed like a disaster from the get-go every time.
I'm going to attempt to withhold judgement on the OL until we see them go against other teams. Our obnoxiously inexperienced 2nd string OL should get beat consistently by our experienced 1st string DL.
It's going to be another year of tight games. We have difference makers on defense. Very good starting QB and WRs on offense. Then there's the inexperienced and unproven OL and RBs. Defense should keep us in all of the games. I expect the OL to blow 4 or 5 drives per game with TFLs, Sacks, and Penalties.
Attended live. In all honesty, I didn't think the 1st team OL was as bad as many are making it out to be here. The DL definitely got pressure, but there were some sets where Gardner got some decent time to throw. Also, there were very few plays where it seemed like Gardner was getting run over. The only series I remember this happening was during several blitz packages. Nussmeier responded with a nice screen that picked up a lot of yards.
On the other hand, the rest of the offensive lines were a disaster. Morris was fighting for time to throw on almost every play.
I agree somewhat. I saw some nice pockets tonight for the passing game. But I also saw breakdowns when the D brought pressure. Last year is going to be our Achilles heel. Defenses are going to attack us up front until we can prove we can handle it and burn them on it. We didn't show that tonight.
Nuss isnt going to show his adjustments to pressure to DCs during a public scrimmage, I'm surprised he even called the screen. I still have faith he will deal with it much better than Borges did.
As much as anything this gives the D a huge advantage in this sort of a scrimmage. So we'll have to wait until week two to know just how good or bad things are.
same story about the D Line being "that good" before the season and that turned out to be a result of the O line being that bad. I get that we have two more weeks to go, but why should we expect the reports to be more accurate this year?
Well, the entire d-line is returning, for one, and many of them played together last year. Even if our OL is improved, they still have to get better at working together.
He's been raving this year. Mattison has never been one to blow smoke around.
Because pretty much everyone involved is more experienced
What reports? I haven't heard anyone say the DL is going to be great or is "that good." They say the defense has a different attitude than last year. And tonight they looked a lot better than the OL (just like last year). I think everyone is in a wait-and-see mode.
I thought Pipkins's injury really hurt the DL last year. He was starting to come on and then his injury really left us thin at the tackle spots. If he'd been healthy all year I think we'd have had a pretty solid DL.
Good memory. Apparently Hart20 just watches DiNardo's twitter feed.
Defense is always ahead of the offense this time of year though isn't it? My concern is running to the left. Cole looks like a natural pass blocker, but probably not there as a run blocker at this point. Mags' strength is also pass pro, originally. It seemed tonight that the coaches preferred running on the right side of the line. Also, Funk gets a lot of blame on the board, but what about Wellmam? I mean it's cool and all that we got some defensive players with sweet abs, but we gotta get better in the trenches.
Meh, contrary to popular belief, there aren't many secrets to getting bigger and faster. At this level, the S & C coaches are pretty much all the same.
I disagree with that with the understanding that I don't really know what goes on in our training facility. There's different ways to train and build your body.
There are, for sure. Wellman, for instance, believes in the bench press, while Barwis did not. The bench press is absolutely critical for offensive linemen.
Look at our team. They all look the part. Strength is not an issue. Neither is conditioning, as evidenced by our team generally being good in the 4th quarter, whereas Barwis' teams often folded late in games and late in the season.
Wellman is not the problem. These guys can move tanks and can run for days. The problem is that they aren't very good at blocking people yet.
There can be a bunch of reasons for that. I can think of plenty of games RR's teams played poorly well before the 4th. It could just as well be that RR was trying a bunch of new tricks until the other team figured it out. Also, how did RR have such good teams at WV if they apparently couldn't bench press a broomstick? It's easy to point to RR's time at Michigan and blame it on whatever you choose, not so easy to criticize RR's WV teams.
You can work your pecs without a bench press. A lot of people criticize the bench press as one of the big NFL combine stats. Is it true that Barwis didn't have them work on the press at all? Or just underemphasized it? I don't know the average, but Brandon Graham got 31 reps at the combine. Looking at the records and some of the lower showings, that seems pretty good. Obviously he had pecs. Anyway, core and legs are way more important.
I'd agree with LordGrantham. Wellman and Barwis are/were not the problem. They just talk about those guys so they have something else to write about. www.bodyrecomposition.com run by Lyle MacDonald is a great resource, along with the forums there. He tries to base things in science as much as possible (although the science on bodybuilding is not great actually). One thing he criticizes is a poster talking about THE way to get big.
I guess my point was I don't know why Wellmans physical training of interior lineman is any better or worse than Funks teaching of them, nor does anybody. I think they're both equally important, so I don't know why one gets magnified and one ignored.
The eyeball test. Sure, it's crude, but our guys look the part.
As an example, Ben Braden isn't weak. He looks like Tarzan. His problem is that he hasn't figured out how to apply his raw strength into playing strength. This is due to a lack of technique. Wellman doesn't teach technique.
I have only one qualm with Barwis, but as an old lineman, I simply cannot forgive him for it. Sure, you can build your chest without the bench press. But the motion for the bench press is IDENTICAL to the motion of the punch of a lineman in pass protection. So why not stress the shit out of it?
You don't want your skill position guys to bench press, fine. I'm sure I can be convinced. But not on the line.
I'm not sure who taught you how to punch, but if it is identical to your bench press motion you're doing it wrong.
Bench is over rated, period. Squats and cleans are where you make a living as an OL (actually all positions). If you want to knock people off the LOS it's about the lower body, not the upper. That is why you don't stress the shit out of it.
I also have a copy of Barwis' Michigan workouts and bench press is definitely part of the plan.
Funk taught be how to punch. Ba-zing!
Maybe I overstated the case, but no lift approximates the punch of a pass protecting lineman like the bench press. Just like no lift approximates the punch in run blocking like the incline bench press.
As for whether they did it or not, I'm sure they benched. But Barwis was quoted saying they were going to deemphasize the bench because the only time you do the bench motion on the field is when you've been pancaked and you're pushing someone off of you. The comment strained credulity.
Sure there are different ways, but that doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other.
I said this at the bottom of the scrimmage thread, but remember that through 2 games last season MSU had scored a grand total of 2 offensive touchdowns...against Western and South Florida. App. State is two weeks away. The line will improve between now and then.
It's days like this that I enjoy being hundreds of miles away from Ann Arbor - it just seems like nothing good was going to come out of this scrimmage. If the OL and DL play even, then everyone wonders if both suck are both are good. One dominates, and the other is treated as a dumster fire.
Let's see how the team performs against opponents, not against guys who they have matched up against all year and in a contrived setting to boot.
Come back to talk OL/DL after App State game.
A lot can change in two weeks of training camp. I know everyone will but don't overanalyze one practice. Reserve judgment about either line but especially the offensive line until after the first couple of games.
This thread says more about the fans' psyches than the team's strengths/weaknesses
O line is a disaster. End of story.
10) Doesn't the DL know the playbook?
9) DL is always more developed at this point
8) They're sophomores...give them.a few games to gel...or next season
7) Kalis at RG will be a beast
6) Miller is a decoy. Glasgow will replace him for ND
5) Cole will learn fast...you'll see
4) It's just a scrimmage. Hoke ain't showing his cards
3) With our RBs we dont need an OL
1) Peppers at LT
The offensive line was always going to fail in this setting. It is a work in progress. And its starting from a very low point.
I'm of the opinion that this line will be better than last year's, but it wont happen right away. They will probably never be able to get much consistent push in the run game. We will have to live with that. Where I think the improvement will come is in fewer outright missed assignments meaning fewer sacks and fewer TFLs. And with Gardner upright, we can win a lot of games, particularly if we get some 3rd and 5s instead of the 3rd and longs we were always in last season.
We will live and die with Gardner, just as we did last season. I think he is good enough to beat any and every team on the schedule if he is given some time.
Like I said in an earlier thread, people were so happy to get an announcement on who was starting that they were ignoring the concerns we ought to have. This will not be a good running team. But the defense and passing game should make us a contender in the division.
I think this is a very realistic take. But Devin needs to improve - his variability from game to game was very high - anywhere from Vince Young Jr to HS SR level of play. I am worried about what I saw in the spring game (a few bad decisions against, bad INTs) and some of the comments tonigh about his decision making and accuracy. He needs to be lights out for this team to get near 10 wins due to the OL. I'd give up 2 Vince Young nights from him where he looks like the 2nd/3rd best QB in the country in return for 10 games where he looks like the 2nd/3rd best QB in the league.
I agree with all this. I love Devin's ability. I wonder sometimes if Morris could be that third-best QB in the league week in and week out.
Honestly, I'm kinda surprised at how much doom and gloom there was here. 1st team offense didn't play much at all, but I thought the OL was adequate. They had trouble against all out blitzs and Hurst shot through for a bad TFL and safety, but otherwise they seemed ok. Runs were of the 3 yard variety mostly, but were consistently positive. Pass protection was ok as long as the ball came out quick. Devin didn't look very good and the were tons of drops, which didn't help things. Considering they only ran the basest of base plays, it really wasn't all that surprising the D was ahead.
The 2nd team spent most of the scrimmage getting destroyed by the defensive two deep, which is probably why it seemed so bad to do many people. If you didn't realize who was first team and who was second team, yeah it looked awful.
Glasgow got hurt early on, interestingly it was Burzinyski that filed in. He came back for a series with his ankle all taped up, then Burzinyski played the rest of the way. I watched Glasgow walk out through the tunnel afterwards and he wasn't limping as far as I could tell, so I don't think it's serious.
The thing I observed last year that caused me some concern even in fall camp was that simple twists and stunts were absolutely befuddling the interior line. I just remembered an "oh-oh" moment going off in my brain as an interior line that can't handle basic defensive line movements like that was just thinking too much and not instinctive at all. That speaks to youth and not being grounded in the basics but being asked to be as capable at baseline as senior level players.
The first team OL was actually not bad yesterday honestly. They had a few missed assignments but overall blocked well - not with power but were on assignment. I think they will have to do max protection in the early days and chip potentially to help the tackles but I think overall by the end of the season they will be decent enough to run their base plays consistently and have counters. They will have to game plan until then and there will still be some ugly negative plays.
But I was fairly sanguine on the first team line and am curious if magnuson goes back to LT when Kalis and Glasgow come back.
The fact is we have a marginal at best OL. On the other hand we have about 6 backup d lineman that could start at most top 50 schools.
Was happy to hear some positive stuff out of Poggi in the comments.
I do think our 2nd deep at DT could start for a lot of teams - in fact I have no idea who the 2nd group of DTs even is right now because the 1s and 2s there seem about the same. But we have a group of Pipkins, Wormley, Henry and I guess Hurst as #4 that sounds very interchangeable. Throw Mone in there who sounds like he might have an impact similar to Pipkins as a freshman as the #5. So when you throw the "2s" on DTs (who could start at a lot of places) versus the C/OGs "2s" which ... welp.... it won't lead to good things.
Again this year. We just replaced a top 10 pick at LT with a true freshman. We continue to shift player between positions. Nussmeier is our only hope at this point.
Don't forget Obi-Wan.
isn't falling yet.
Look---we had a closed-door scrimmage Wednesday and the public scrimmage today. I don't know how many more scrimmages Hoke has planned, but I'm going to stay away from the panic button for the time being while the Hoke and Nuss and staff evaluate/dissect film/coach over the next two weeks. Especially Nuss, who seems to be pretty good at putting the pieces together to run an effective, cohesive offense.
Am I worried at all? On a scale of 1-to-10 (10 being panic-level), I'm at a 7. Mostly because we all know how bad this unit was last season. But there is time---game 1 in 2 weeks/ our first real test will be in 3 weeks at ND---and all the fretting in the world on my part won't change a damn thing. So why lose sleep over it already?
There's no need to panic yet. Our defense is supposed to be very good if not great. If the offense keeps it simple, the O-line should continue to get better, and as has been said ad nauseum, it's not like Nuss was calling anything but the basest of base plays. Some people need to take a chill pill. If the defense is dominant and the offense progresses week to week Michigan will have as good of a shot as anyone. If the offense regresses like last year, to me it's Hoke's ass on the line. But to draw any major conclusions from a scrimmage is ridiculous.
defensive line. Everyone here said they thought the OL was going to be the weakest link. I don't think anyone should be surprised.
The defensive line is pretty set. They aren't swapping players like the OL is.
The defensive line knows the play calls which gives them an advantage.
That being said I agree with reshp 1. I didn't think the first unit played that bad. I didn't see the tackles for loss on a very consistent basis like last year. I saw adequate protection for the quick passes which are going to be the major part of the offense most likely. We will be a passing team and run to mix it up at leastt while the line is developing.
I think when the line is set next week they will begin to get better but I also think they will be much better at the end of the year than at the beginning. They can be adequate early on which hopefully is all we will need with the defense.
The OL will be much better next year. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
It's fine, the Oline is young and you have to be Sr to be good at Oline at Michigan.
General thoughts with the preface that I am in the camp we will have a lot of close games this year and and not a great record and I don't think the OL will be very good but Devin needs to improve on decision making, accuracy, and pre-read snaps.... all things we have no idea if he has.
1) "The DL is great, so don't worry about the OL" thinking is not realistic. We probably have a good DL... I doubt it is great. Especially this early, with so many young players. I am a lot more bullish on the DTs than most here. I think Clark will be incrementally better. Beyer I am a bit worried about due to size. But they are going up against a bad line, plain and simple. Clark making Braden look silly is probably natural at this point but Braden will be playing Clark like players soon enough which is a bad thing. I do think the 2nd unit of our DL is going to be far better than the 2nd unit of our OL but UM will not be facing 2nd units of other teams - so it's not an excuse out there.
2) "MSU defense helped the offense stick around last year, so no worries - we're MSU." Bullshit. MSU's OL was its BEST offensive unit last year. It was MSU's best OL in years. Their issues were finding a QB and a RB. They were trying 3 different QBs in those games they struggled to settle on Cook eventually vs ND. That is not our issue. Finding a QB is 1 player, finding an OL is 5 players - we have a completely different issue. MSU's OL sucked in 2012 due to injuries and they had a bad year. It is not so simple as "hey we will be MSU of 2013". Further MSU's defense wasn't just top 20ish, it was elite elite elite. Another difference.
3) Comments like we don't need a good OL because we have great RBs is just silly. First we have no idea what kind of RBs we have - we have high ranked RBs... but Dymonte Thomas is high ranked and can't find the field. We have no way to judge the RBs behind this line - throw them behind a competent line and we'll see. And even a great RB behind this line is going to be severely hampered; they are not magicians - any RB needs holes and lanes.
4) Devin will be the horse this year yet again - live and die with hero ball QB for the 4th year in a row it appears simply due to the OL issues. Which is a damn shame since having a balanced offense would be nice.
5) I fear many so high on Nuss today are going to be down on him in 7 weeks due to this one really bad unit. He is not a miracle worker - I am sure he is a good OC but he will be hampered by the OL and people are going get on his case.
6) If the OL does not improve THROUGH the year I dont know how Funk remains. There is a lot of talent and not all those Scout/Rivals/ESPN reports can be wrong on every damn linemen. You throw 10 guys out there, and 6 should hit. Especially the ones in their 3rd year - that is Magnuson, Kalis, and Braden. Bars seems like he won't be hitting. If nothing has changed in late October it means 2 years of regression/stagnation on the OL. MSU has a guy in Kalis/Magnuson/Braden class named Jack Conklin who was a WALK ON and he didnt give up a sack last year as a TACKLE. So it's complete BS we cannot develop any of our guys to be competent NCAA players - not great, not "Jack Conklin awesome" but competent.
Overall it is a shame because if the 2010 and 2011 classes gave us 2-3 starting OL who we could count on this is a 10+ win team in my estimation and competing for the East. Instead we are going to be in a lot of close games with some just ok teams, and Devin is going to simply have to carry the offense single handidly and I worry about him facing the same issues of 2013 where we was lucky to avoid injury until late in the year. I am extremely positive about 2015 but it requires an OL that improves throughout 2014 and ready to be very good in 2015 - so if I don't see the progression in the OL this year it means we might piss away the easiest schedule we are going to have in the next decade in 2015 due to one unit not being competent.
1) Is UM the only team that rotates its DL?
2) MSU also couldn't catch the ball in 2012.
3) Anyone who said this was joking.
Per Nick B on mlive the #1 offense was going up mostly against the #2 defense to answer your question #1.
You're referencing mlive? According to everyone else, first team o were only on the field for a brief time. You're really going to believe anyone from mlive over everyone here? Go back to mlive .
I'm not sure what everyone else was watching, but the #1 offense was most definitely going against the #2 defense. Also, the #1 offense got a little less than a third of the snaps.
There's really wasn't a second team defense, they rotated a lot, but the d lines top guys like Clark and Henry were out for the most part against the 1s
At this point, I am rooting for Jack Miller to find you and beat the shit out of you. What's your problem with the kid? He's a college player doing the best he can. If he's not good enough, congratulations, you are a prophet. Why are you rooting against him?
I don't have a problem with Miller. I felt bad for him last year that he was put in a position where he couldn't succeed. Same thing with Bellomy against Nebraska--never should have been out there. My issue is with the way this staff has assessed and coached the offensive line. It's abhorrent. And the fact that M fans are looking at this first team o-line and just nodding is hilarious to me.
"Just nodding"? I'm pretty sure you aren't the only one who's concerned about our offensive line. Not sure what you've been reading lately.
As opposed to what? Shitting on our players every chance you get before the season even starts? Gleefully watching for failure so you can say "I told you so?"
Yeah, no thanks.
I want Michigan to win football games and am tired of excuses for managerial incompetence. Lots of players don't pan out or end up having the talent to play at this level, and that's too bad, I guess. It's the coaches' job to figure out who those guys are and not throw them to the wolves. Sorry if my picture offended you--the oline situation is just getting to the level of absurdity for me.
Aye aye aye, it was only a matter of time. Would you care to educate me on what makes a real fan now?
What exactly would placate you at this point? Wanting something doesn't make it so. In a situation stacked towards the defense, the first team offensive line made a sizeable step forward compared to last year. They only gave up a couple of negative plays all night. That's with probably the two best guards out (Kalis was held out, and Glasgow hurt his foot and burzinyski played most of the time).
Expecting literally the worst line in the country to do a complete 180 in one year isn't realistic, especially in a setting where the defense pretty much knows the plays. They took a step forward, now they need to take another one.
It's just childish. You don't think Miller is any good. You're on record. This way when Miller plays poorly, you can pat yourself on the back. Great.
There is no reason to beat this dead horse anymore. The kid is out there giving everything he's got for Michigan. You don't like his coach? Fine. Put up a Keep Calm Brady Hoke Sucks image. Why the personal attacks on the kid?
I bet you hated Braylon Edwards for saying Lloyd Carr's Michigan. You're doing the same thing, but making personal attacks about our players as well.
Bashing a Michigan coach on a forum where he has -24885 points
Damn, all these takes from one scrimmage are SCORCHING.
Has picked up where it ended last season. Hopefully Hoke will name starters and we will stick with them through the season. The lack of development was due in part to too much substitution!
Time to panic?
pretty heavily a few weeks back when I mentioned that our Oline is going to SUUUUUCCCCKKKKK.
is being made. Sitting on the sidelines yelling it's not going to turn out is bad enough but now you're patting yourself on the back too?
There was not one run over 10 yards, by a RB, the whole night...... not good.
I've said it before, recruiting O line is very difficult. Just so much growing to do yet, really is the most unpredictable position to recruit.
I know we have a very good back 7, but are people forgetting that our D line hasn't been all that good? Like our talent there, but I have been very disappointed with their production. There is still no reason to think we have a dominant D Line, because we haven't had one in years. I'm afraid the O Line is just that bad. We have two weeks to get it sorted out. The team is built to run the ball, if we don't have an O line to make that possible it's a house of cards, might as well run the spread.
The goal and intention is to run the ball. Until we have a line that is in the top quartile of D1 this team won't be built to run it. Unfortunately our HC has stated he wants the identity of this team to be tough, physical, and be able to run the ball. We may not be there yet but I do want to see how we look at ND even though they're almost never an elite team anymore. Not like we have much to say either in that category.
At least I've learned that I'd rather have a top flight OL rather than a top flight RB. If you have a great OLine you don't need Fournette or another hyped RB back there.
Be competent OL, the attention is squarely on your play by everyone.
Great post. The line isn't young anymore, no matter what people say. The fact is, the recruiting sites are usually pretty good and by now the 4-5 star guys on the line should be able to at least run block.
You seem to be forgetting that the defense isn't going to just let you engage them and drive them off the line. Saban makes things easy? Obviously you don't know much about his defense.
I don't even know where to start...
When you can recruit highly ranked 6-4+ 290+ HS kids (players most schools would call the gem of their recruiting class) at OL there is no reason to ever be below average.
This is just so completely wrong when it comes to OL. What the high rankings get you is a quality lump of clay to hopefully mold into a quality player in year 3 or 4 of their college careers. Some work out, some don't. There's such a complete disconnect between recruiting rankings and expectations here in general, but it's beyond ludicrous to think HS linemen are going to be plug and play in a major college program.
Truly, run blocking is finding the guy you have to drive off the line (with a head start, mind you) and engaging him to move him back or to seal him off.
Sounds great, except the guys on the other side are just as big and fast and are doing everything they can to prevent you from doing that. If it was as easy as just doing what the X-O diagram shows, every play would go for touchdown, but they obviously don't because everyone still has to win the individual battles.
Haven't even played a game yet, and we're already calling for firings in the coaching staff.
Simple fact: Defenses are always ahead of offenses in camp. Period. That's just how it goes. This was a scrimmage. There's two weeks to go. Step off the ledge, y'all.
This might be the best collective D-line we've had in years IF the hype and current play leads into the season. Our o-line just isn't good right now. Not going to put a whole lot into last night but it was disappointing to see that straight up domination.
It's practice. You practice what you're BAD at, and it never looks good. Have you ever heard musicians rehearse? It's like hearing a broken record as they keep repping the tough parts.
1) Our DL is probably decent; our OL's ceiling this year is below average. There's no way the OL was going to look good.
2) Defenses are typically ahead of offenses before the season. So even if the OL was on par with the more experience defense (it's not), they were going to be outplayed.
3) Once again they used a lot of TE sets they probably aren't going to rely on in games. The reason for this is obvious; the TEs need the reps. The screens they'll probably be running constantly at the start of the season can be repped in pieces (route-running, blocking in space, passing drills, etc.). It's not ideal, but scrimmages are far more valuable to linemen.
So I was expecting our OL to look like a trainwreck. That's the point. If the defense doesn't give both barrels every play, the OL will never get good. So they'll continue to look like shit until they get it together.
The real question is are they good enough. All they've been doing is hitting each other so is the crappy OL holding back the DL, or is the DL above-average and pushing the OL to decent? Hard to tell until they start playing games. But there was no question going in that the DL was going to make the OL look bad.
You all understand this was our Defense playing our Offense, right? Something tells me they're familiar with the formations and the plays that come from them.
I think the Defense always has a bit of an advantage in scrimmages.
I'll just reserve judgement until we start playing other teams. I'm not expecting a giant leap but cohesiveness would be nice. I also believe Nuss will gameplan to our strengths and the team will have a more developed deep threat gameplan.
Devin was running for his life and the running game looks like a continuation of last year though the backs ran hard. Every time Drake took the hand off I was expecting good things; there just weren't many holes.
Devin looks like he's still suffering from the same problems. He ran back out of the pocket while heaving a pass out of bounds and threw a bad pick to Blake that was intended for Funchess.
As much as I hate to say it, Shane looked more poised and accurate but this is a small sample size and they were not playing the same competition. Was really hoping Devin would take the next step but I think We'll be subjected to the same dizzying highs and lows of last year.
the consensus is that the Oline is way behind the defense at this point, and the lack of progress is going to severely impact the running game and lead to an imbalanced offense throughout the season. The general feeling is, Michigan will have to be a passing team by necessity, but using the short passing game primarily. This, of course, ostensibly negates the very identity the offense was hoping to create as a tough, running team that could grind out wins and explode as a pssing attack when needed, sort of the identity that Lloyd Carr's Michigan teams always fashioned.
At worst, others contend the Oline is an unmitigated disaster with little development from a year ago with the Oline coach completely to blame, but most are willing to reserve judgment until season's end.
A few think Funk should be gone now or shortly, and that he even has made certain poor recruiting choices so that the players counted on to develop will not be helpful in the future. Some acknowledge that what Hoke has already indicated a freshman left tackle, who is always responsible for protecting Gardner's blindside, is Michigan's best prospect for that position. As Brian might say, Wow. I don't know, man"
Those outside the doom and gloom perspective, think that blowing up over an inter squad scrimmage with rotating players competing for jobs in a camp setting in mid-August shouldn't be regarded as the final test for resolving Oline review and assessment that there is time for the line to gel before a real test in Souh Bend in a month.
All of these thoughts and observations are based on limited information, knowledge and understanding of what was viewed at this public scrimmage, albeit up close and personal.
I guess I come away thinking based on this that the Oline is limited until proven otherwise and this team will have problems scoring on long drives. But we really don't know, until we see things transpire in a game. I think, however, that general consensus may not sync with actual performance until performance can be measured by actual data that matters.
At this point, put me in the camp of seeking greater improvement after the first two games before it's time totally go off the deep end into full scale panic and worry.
I apologize if someone already made this point, but with respect to the relative inexperience of the offensive line, here's something from Wikipedia about the 1997 offensive line:
The offensive line was another uncertainty for the 1997 team. Three linemen from the 1996 team had been selected in the 1997 NFL Draft: center Rod Payne (3rd round, 76th overall), offensive guard Damon Denson (4th round, 97th overall) and defensive tackleWilliam Carr (7th round, 217the overall). As a result, Michigan began the season with only one offensive lineman, offensive tackle Jon Jansen, who had started a game. Jansen, a junior, had 25 consecutive starts entering the season. The offensive line was further weakened when left tackle, Jeff Backus, suffered a ruptured appendix. In spring practice, offensive line coach Terry Malone made a plea for help during a staff meeting. was searching for talent to fill in on the line. To fill the holes on the offensive line, two defensive linemen, Steve Hutchinson and Chris Ziemann were moved to the offensive line.
That team rushed for 4.0 yards a carry against some tough teams (seven of them ranked).
So how was that team able to accomplish that? In other words, how did the '97 team overcome an inexperienced offensive line?
Miniscule sample size. Go and look at all teams that had to replace 4 starters, I'll bet you find one National Champion. Or look at all National Champions, I bet you'll find 1 that had to replace 4 starters.
The 1997 offense was, to put it bluntly, OK. They didn't score a ton, but they made few mistakes. The defense was the motor that drove that team.
But hey, everyone thought that team would struggle. Lets hope this line can put it together like that one. Let's hope Cole is the next Hutchinson.
I didn't realize that Hutch was on D prior to switching. I just assumed he came in as an OL. Interesting.
While I frequently refer to Wikipedia, it's wildly wrong in this case.
According to the UM football stats archive, senior center Zach Adami entered the '97 season with 24 starts under his belt from the '95 and '96 season.
On top of that, the notion that Backus was "weakened" by the appendix problem is a bit ridiculous, since Backus started started all 12 games in '97.
In the past, when our OL would go up against our DL, we'd see a bunch of dudes hugging each other with no push in either direction. Then they'd both end up as mediocre. Maybe the silver lining here is that while our OL will be mediocre for the 3rd year in a row, our DL might actually be something more than gap fillers for the first time in awhile.
What? An ineffective offensive line at Michigan...Never!
I still have big concerns aout our D line. Weren't we last in the conference in sacks? What makes people think we're going to go from the worst pass rush in te league to the top 3rd of the league? Clark is a good player, Henry showed some flashes, Taco could be a good player this year, none strike me as All B1G type players this year. I also think we are thin at DT with Pipkins still being brought back slowly. Will Pipkins even play more than a few snaps a game at this point if at all?
Again, I like our talent at D line, but just have yet to see a doiminant D line or something close to it. Which is what makes this tough. We are going to play some of the better D lines in the nation this year, ones that are clearly much better than ours, how is our O line going to look versus Michigan State or Ohio? Those are probably two of the top 5 D lines in the country, we're going to need to use a lot of Max protection to keep Gardner from getting killed. And without any run blocking again, defenses are just going to pin their ears back and come after our QB.
The defense is going to be good, no doubt. I suppose after losing both Lewan and Schofield we should have expected this from the O line. I hope I am wrong and we do have a totally dominant D line, that would be great for the development of the O line, to play against a top unit in practice every week.
Absolutely love Mason Cole and think he could be one of the greats here, but considering the guys on the roster, it's alarming that a true freshman could come in and not only get playing time, but start at left tackle and frankly look like our best O lineman. That's a scary thought.
A better question would be did the OL look better than the spring scrimmage?
They've only been in camp for 12 days so there's a ways to go. The defense should look better than the offense at this point.
I do hope the OL can get it together, but I can't say I was pleased when Funk was spared. I know Brian seems to have confidence in his abilities, but I can't shake the bad feelings I get from the line regressing year after year, prospect after prospect seeming to not pan out and almost get dropped by the wayside, and that it seems the only competent OL we've had going into Hoke's 4th year were the ones who got their start under the previous staff...
Linemen during the Rich Rod years? It's very clear that is the major cause from the regression. Well I guess you could add that some of the damn players had the nerve to graduate.
Mealer, Omameh, and Barnum weren't exactly lights out for such a mature group. I'll withold judgement for now, but the list of guy that haven't performed under Funk is getting pretty long.
This is very true. But those guys weren't missing assignments like our current guys are. Mealer couldn't really move anyone, but he got to the right spot. There is something to be said for that. Something like the amount of negative plays were much fewer, even if the amount of 0-2 yard plays was similar.
Those guys struggled with ability. Our guys are not only struggling with that, but also not knowing where to be. The reason: experience. It's that simple. I do not have a particularly high opinion of present-day Kyle Kalis, for example, but I can guarantee that Kalis will wind up as a better player than Mark Huyge. And if Kalis, like Huyge, was only asked to play during his last two years, we would be pleased with his output. The bad thing is that we have to watch the growing pains at the Stadium, not in Oosterbaan.
I'm not real surprised by the reactions. Our D line is supposed to be one of our strengths and our O line is supposed to be our weakest area. So, expecting that match up to go anywhere other than in favor of our D line.... Well lets just say I wasn't expecting much. However, it does kind of confirm what most of us fear - the O line will struggle this year most of the time (especially in B1G play).
At some point you would expect forward progress from some of the players, and I'm not ready to hang Funk out to dry just yet. I'm hoping the unit comes together and begins to gel within the next week or two. I'm hoping Nuss can call a game better than Borges and he will put the players and team in a position to win (i.e. no studid ass I-Form PA pass on 3rd and long).