Was the OL horrendous tonight or merely not as good as the DL?
New avatar to keep Funk honest. Will change it if the O line is even remotely coherent vs. ND.
OL was bad. Especially at the beginning. Got better as scrimmage went on. OL ones looked hood against DL twos. DL ones destroyed OL twos. Mone got a lot of push on Bosch.
The DL looks legit.
OL looks marginally better than last year. But needs a lot of improvement.
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ROCK ON DARRELL FUNK! EARN THAT PAYGRADE!
did the o-line look "hood" and from which hood?
I say it's because Peppers didn't play
Left offensive tackle while playing DE
at the same time.
After reading the tweets, I have to ask, are you SURE he didn't do this?
The twitter feed was scary. The pick by Gardner sounded similar to the linebackers video from the Countdown Day 14 series... A little pressure and a bad decision.
On the other hand, this is a blip and I am going to (at least temporarily) stay positive about this year. I still expect to be in a good spot come November with a chance down the stretch.
I didn't think the decision was bad at all. The throw wasn't great, but i though Funchess could have put more effort to get to the ball.
I am interested to see what others say. My family and I went. I don't want to overreact, but I am certainly concerned about the offensive line after what I saw.
It just seems like they have no . . . push. I don't know. I am hoping everyone else says our defensive line is just that good. . .
Didn't see this post coming.
Another question -- Were there any individual o-linemen who looked particularly good or bad? I get that the line as a whole struggled, but I'm curious about the individuals.
I saw mentioned thw overall play of an individual.
Said Kugler playing well with the 2's.
Could be needed... don't see Jack Miller as answer in middle.
I watched Jack Miller quite a bit and I thought he held his own . That being said, the only good run was a Gardner scramble.
That's good to hear about Miller, because I wasn't impressed with him last year. I didn't get to watch the scrimmage tonight, so I appreciate the insight.
Kugler did not look very good unfortunately, I thought he had a much better Spring Game. He got beat reapeatedly (althoughto be fair, the guys next to him were awful, so its hard to tell live) and curiously had some trouble snapping the ball.
Miller looked decent. He had a really impressive play where he chipped the NT with one arm and moved quickly out to the LB on one of the longer runs that really stood out. He's probably never going to be the guy that manhandles a 300+lb NT by himself, but it is what it is at this point. He was also solid in pass pro.
From twitter/open thread sounded like no push as a group.
God this scrimmage/offense had me second guessing my prediction of 10 wins.
I left much more concerned about the OL than I was heading in.
However, we would also be freaking out if the OL was dominating the DL.
Notes from the presser: Hoke wants to have the starting lineup in pen by Wednesday/Thursday.
Derrick Green is also the #1 RB, De'Veon 1A. However, none stood out tonight.
Funk needs to be replaced, we have done great in recruiting the talent but it seems like he cannot develop the players..Borges went first and Funk is up next
Something needs to occur. They can either decide that Rivals/Scout was horrifically wrong on every guy brought in, or that there might be a problem within the organization. I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic regression.
I was hoping Coach Nuss would help make up for whatever it is Coach Funk may be lacking. I really just feel like I don't see any aggression from the offensive line. Is that really something that can/needs to be taught?
This isn't an excuse, but a fact of life and the reason young OL usually aren't very good: it is hard to be aggressive when you aren't comfortable with your assignment or ability.
If you aren't 100% sure of what to do and how to do it and how you expect the defense to react, you go out there and catch the defender instead of hitting him. And if you don't feel you are fast enough or strong enough or good enough to beat the man across you, you just try to get in his way.
Only reps can fix this. This is what is meant when people say, "it clicks".
There has to be more to the story than just lack of reps, though. Cole came in and moved to the top of the depth chart in the spring before his freshman year. UM recruited a bunch of OG/OT swing players and it looks like pretty much all of them (Kalis, Bosch, Samuelson, Fox, etc.) have zero potential at OT. Where are the young studs? Where are the 2nd year players who are ready to start kicking tail, like many OL from UM's past?
Like I said, I'm not making excuses. The kids aren't ready yet. I'm just sharing a little of the psychology that goes with being a collegiate offensive lineman.
What I will say is that none of these kids as they are today would have started for most Michigan teams, but most Michigan teams wouldn't have to rely on more than 1 of them. We do, because we have 0 Sr and 2 Jr, one a former walk-on.
they have 3 seniors and 5 juniors. I don't how many of these, if any, are walk-ons, and which of them are just practice cannon fodder. Knowing Saban, I would guess he doesn't keep much of the latter around very long.
Many of the top rated recruits were not listed by anyone as being college ready, especially at the tackle position. Noboday was thinking LTT or others would be able to come in and dominate in year two. The only real exception to that was Kalis. So if you want cause for concern it would be Kalis.
and I've said this a long time, the biggest indictment of Funk is the performances of the players he hasn't coached. You look at the oline the first year. Most of those players were players that were developed under a different staff and was by far the best o-line we had since Hoke came. The unit as a whole has regressed since they came with the exception of a few individuals. Those individuals are players that, again, received most of their coaching/development prior to Funk arriving (Lewan and Schofield).
Fast forward to now and you see a new freshman who has been coached and developed by a high school coach leap to the starting position at left tackle. Meanwhile we have guys who have been in this system for three years now being coached by funk, watching him leap frog them and wondering what the hell is going on.
We've been hearing the excuse for the past 2 season that the guys are just too young (which I'm not discounting as not being legitimate to a degree) and yet Cole comes in and as a freshman is our #1 option at LT. I know there are always exceptions too, but this doesn't seem like that. It seems like our best chance at putting a decent o-line on the field is fielding anyone who hasn't been cursed by funky touch of Funk.
I said most of last year that I believed the problem wasn't just Borges, but Funk as well and we only got rid of half the problem. The o-line will continue to struggle until Funk gets his walking papers.
when no players step up and then bitch when someone does stand out in the first year because, dammit, a guy who was a high school player last year got such superior coaching that he can start for Michigan. The players who you don't feel developed enough in a year or two here prove failure by the players somewhat but mainly the coaching staff. The guys who were first and third round NFL picks were good enough to be first and third round picks four years ago and didn't develop or if they developed a little bit, it was on their own despite the terrible coaching.
These players are busting their asses out there to represent Michigan. We have people calling them failures when most OL don't play until their fourth or fifth year. They have a new coach and a new system to learn. The OC had to evaluate these guys to see who the right players are. We still don't know who the final unit is but we are fairly certain a couple didn't play much last night. They were playing against a defensive line that knows the plays and we know the coaches aren't going to show everything in a open scrimmage. The coaches will pick the final line this week and actually let them play together for a couple weeks so they can gel as a unit. Can we at least support them for a couple of weeks before we start throwing them under the bus?
I thought this scrimmage was a good idea but listening to some posters on here, I'm not so sure. No one would have expected this line to look good at all going into the scrimmage yet some start this huge uproar to fire Funk already. Maybe we should wait to see what the coaches actually put on the field for a game.
I agree that overall Funk has yet to produce a solid entire OL unit, but to assert that the success of Lewan and Schofield is entirely attributable to two years under Frey and had nothing to do with three years under Funk is illogical.
And Schofield never played a snap for anyone but Funk. We're reaching for straws here.
Whatever Nuss's impact will be won't be known until the season starts. Play calling during scrimmages, particularly public ones is going to be beyond vanilla.
Which then leads to uber aggressive defense.
The point made earlier in the thread is most relevant here...if the defense was getting pwned we'd be freaking out a lot more.
You thought the point of tonight was Mattison deciding "Oh, Nuss won't show much. Let's drown him like a fat two year old"?
Yes, that's why Hoke wanted an open scrimmage. The point was to make Nuss, Funk, and the OL look like shit.
I know you're not serious, but I do think it was intentional to throw a ton of pressure at the offense to get them more reps and help them learn to deal with it. They'll have all this on film and there will be lots of teaching moments they can pull from this and hopefully get things corrected.
Let's see how this season plays out before we run the guy out of town. We had a bad OL last year and lost our two best guys on it, no less. Meanwhile our DL is supposed to be very good. Given all that, should we have expected a strong performance by the OL in the middle of August?
FWIW, I thought it got a little better as the scrimmage went on. Let's see where we go from here.
Heck, let's give him a decade. Playing football is so darn complicated that he should get to groom multiple generations before he takes any liability for the performance of his players.
I'm just curious here. Were you calling for him to be fired after last season, or did you think he deserved another season but now have jumped ship, based on a scrimmage in mid-August?
As well as Borges they both should have been gone
Funk? Yeah, last season. Wasn't even that big of a secret. Read HTTV if you need affirmation on why I felt that way.
If that was your take, OK, I can't say we saw anything tonight that would have changed your mind. But I also don't think it was fair to expect to see much different tonight.
When is it?
If the OL is still a mess at season's end, I think he can be shown the door.
I just don't think August is the best time to evaluate an OL.
While I'm not suggesting that we do the same thing, a couple of years ago, Wisconsin was having O-line problems and fired their O-line coach two weeks after the season had started.
It takes a while for players on the O-line to gel. At the very least, two of the five starters are new and they are playing with a new scheme. From Hoke's comments, I think he sees things in practice that may not have shown up in yesterday's scrimmage. They still have two weeks before the start of the season and three weeks before the ND game. That's a long time as these things go, considering there has only been about a week or ten days of contact drills.
If there isn't substantial improvement in a month, all bets are off.
To expect to see a competent O line ?? He has been here long enough to get this line together, he has had the same amount of time as Borges and this line has not improved 1 bit, most of these guys have been here 2-3 years in the system and we can't run the ball consistently