UM Law school among several which have decided to withdraw from USNWR law school rankings
I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing this in other disciplines also.
The University of Michigan law school announced Sunday it is dropping out of the U.S. News & Work Reports rankings of colleges and universities, joining others, including Yale, Harvard and University of California at Berkeley.
Stanford, Georgetown and Columbia law schools announced Friday they were withdrawing.
UM law school statement is here: https://michigan.law.umich.edu/news/michigan-law-will-not-participate-us-news-rankings
As a public institution, serving the public interest has always been central to our mission. Over time, I increasingly have come to believe that the U.S. News law school rankings no longer serve the public interest. Although we have had sustained discussion for years within the Quad about parting ways with the rankings, it would have been difficult for us to take this step alone.
November 21st, 2022 at 6:23 AM ^
Here's another article about this turn of events
https://www.wsj.com/articles/georgetown-law-joins-roster-of-schools-withdrawing-from-u-s-news-world-report-law-school-rankings-11668795306
There appears to be disagreement...in other news, USNWR says, "So!?"
November 21st, 2022 at 6:27 AM ^
I've heard lots of complaining about USNWR rankings over the years (not just for law school). Where there's smoke, there must be at least some fire. For those familiar with how they work, why are they so despised?
November 21st, 2022 at 6:57 AM ^
They're mostly just bullshit. Here's a Columbia math professor investigating his own school's ranking. Incidentally the "spending on students" metric has led to a lot of bullshit spending to drive that number and thus rankings up...and also tuition.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:23 AM ^
In addition to this (which is def worth a read if you like academic navel-gazing), a not-insignificant component of the score (though because it's proprietary no one really knows how big a component) is reputation. So it becomes a bit tautological when elite universities get ranked as elite because people think they are elite.
Obviously, prestige is a meaningful sociological reality (see: W.I. Thomas and Max Weber), but it isn't really related to [EDIT: "necessarily determinative of" is probably better than "really related to" here] how well or poorly the university educates its students.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:26 AM ^
But it is related to what kind of job opportunities are available upon graduation whether we like it or not. The top consulting companies and investment banking firms, for example, are not interviewing at Youngstown State. Maybe they should.
November 21st, 2022 at 11:23 AM ^
Right, that's what I meant by the second para. It's absolutely meaningful, but also a way in which the slip starts to show of the American meritocratic fict--er--ideal.
November 21st, 2022 at 6:31 AM ^
It's been obvious for years to anyone willing to use at least one of their brain cells that USNWR rankings are not objective.
November 21st, 2022 at 8:28 AM ^
Most of their metrics are objective. It’s just that they aren’t good metrics for deciding what the best schools is. Garbage in, garbage out.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:00 AM ^
I've heard this before, especially about law schools.. For example, USNWR ranks the Moritz College of Law at Ohio State at #30. Of course, their ranking is much lower when the weather is cold and snowy.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:22 AM ^
That's about right IMO. I put them roughly somewhere between 27 - 42.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:00 AM ^
This is the only ranking that matters.
November 21st, 2022 at 6:43 AM ^
USNWR to release a statement saying UMs withdrawal is not accepted, and that they will continue ranking it, only lower next time.
November 21st, 2022 at 6:51 AM ^
and that the UM of law school has dropped out of the top 4 and thus will no longer be considered for the law school playoffs. USNWR elaborated that UM 'strength of schedule' in moot court competitions was not top tier and thus UM sank in the rankings.
November 21st, 2022 at 7:12 AM ^
Also some rumors of a pay-to-publish scheme involving UM Law Review. Hoping they don’t get hit with any sanctions.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:03 AM ^
November 21st, 2022 at 9:13 AM ^
He says law just means more down south
November 21st, 2022 at 6:57 AM ^
Well we're moving on up...
--Cooley Law School
November 21st, 2022 at 7:02 AM ^
I want the schools to publish data for student salaries post graduation with students submitting their salaries via W-2 stubs, and subsequently get $1000 off their federal student loans. Let's cut through the bullshit here and get to the heart of it.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:21 AM ^
Yes. And employment rate.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:41 AM ^
I realize this is a very unpopular opinion, but I don't think money should be the point of college, and I don't think it should be used to rank them. For one, generational wealth and connections to wealthy people are a much stronger indicator of future earnings than actual skills and merit, which distorts graduates' earnings statistics to reflect which schools the already wealthy go to, rather than those which actually grant a good education. More importantly, though, university should be about two things: 1) furthering human knowledge as whole, and 2) producing high-character people who have a well-rounded and deep understanding of the world. Obviously such people often make excellent employees, but so too do many other kinds of people, so earnings don't actually tell you much about a person or how successful a university was in accomplishing their true mission.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:48 AM ^
This is unpopular, but it shouldn't be. So much of rankings is literally based on who can get the most kids with wealthy parents to attend. It should be based on merit and hiring/salary upon graduation is largely connected to connections that are pre-determined.
November 21st, 2022 at 2:18 PM ^
While, in theory I agree with you, reality says when I'm paying $200k for my kid's education there needs to be a monetary component to the equation.
November 21st, 2022 at 7:05 AM ^
So USNWR is becoming the Pac-12 of publications?
November 21st, 2022 at 8:12 AM ^
Or like the Big 12.
November 21st, 2022 at 7:26 AM ^
It's about time.
I know it's tough to quit the USNWR ranking. We all love lists. Even as we're telling ourselves they don't really matter, we pay attention. That's why next-level law schools—below the top 14, called T14—won't quit, they aim to get in the top tier and ranking might help them.
Still, Michigan, Berkeley, Yale, Harvard law schools should take the risk.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:37 AM ^
I know it's tough to quit the USNWR ranking. We all love lists.
Indeed.
How are we supposed to qualitatively look down on Staee without a ranking?
November 21st, 2022 at 7:32 AM ^
Malcom Gladwell produced an excellent podcast on this subject a few years ago. I believe it was limited to undergraduate schools. Students hacked into the ranking algorithm and revealed a number of serious biases that pumped up the rankings of wealthy schools while hurting the rankings of poorer schools.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:33 AM ^
Article by Gladwell from 2011 on the same subject:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things
EDIT:
I believe this is the podcast referred to by dearbornpeds:
https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/lord-of-the-rankings
Really fascinating. Reed College pulled out of the rankings in 1995 and they dropped in the rankings every year thereafter. They basically reverse-engineered a model to predict the USNWR rankings.
November 21st, 2022 at 7:36 AM ^
I was saying this over a decade ago, all the schools complain about how they don't like their ranking but there's literally nothing making them be in it.
November 21st, 2022 at 7:40 AM ^
Thanks for sharing. I don't doubt that there are problems/perverse incentives with the formula US News uses, but doing this now seems a bit like "keeping with the Joneses" (aka Harvard and Yale). Flawed rankings or not, the reality is that perceptions do matter for law firm recruiting, clerkships etc., and some of the stats used include data which incoming students being asked to pay six figures in tuition should have access to (employment rates etc).
Also, I wonder to what extent this ultimately matters. US News will still rank Harvard, Yale, Michigan etc based on publicly available data, and I suspect that students, professors and adminstrators will still care about where they end up
November 21st, 2022 at 8:33 AM ^
It frees these institutions to make certain decisions without worrying about how it will impact their rankings. By not revealing internal data to usnwr, they can focus on a good educational product rather than on maximizes ranking metrics. Those two goals were unfortunately sometimes at odds.
November 21st, 2022 at 7:57 AM ^
Good for them. There are so many decisions that get made just to stay ahead in the rankings and often they're counter-productive for the mission of the school or serve useless ends. I've spoken to at least one dean who privately screams internally at how all-consuming it can become to try to make arbitrary rankings happy.
November 21st, 2022 at 8:09 AM ^
You would almost think that systemic PR pandering is inherently baked into all institutions, public or private.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:08 AM ^
I've also spoken to a Dean privately and he tells his friends how he hates the rankings, but then in his public comments (like a State of the XX address for wealthy alumni) what leads his presentation is what the rankings are for the different departments. Absolutely laughable leadership. And then an individual department within this Dean's portfolio has been told to generate a "get well plan" in response to their department dropping in rankings. I'm just sick of the two faced leadership in my alma mater. I am holding out judgement on Ono.
November 21st, 2022 at 8:37 AM ^
Good. These rankings were always dumb so glad a failed magazine no longer holds so much sway over higher education
November 21st, 2022 at 8:40 AM ^
Good - they are poorly constructed metrics that overvalue insignificant things and undervalue what’s most important to an academic institution, ie education and research. I’d love to see everyone leave the undergraduate rankings as well.
November 21st, 2022 at 8:56 AM ^
I'm really glad I actually read this thread's comments because my knee-jerk reaction to this news was not positive at all. I assumed, incorrectly, it was done as some sort of social justice virtue signaling and based on what you guys are saying that isnt at all the case (no pun intended).
November 21st, 2022 at 9:15 AM ^
"some sort of social justice virtue signaling"
Right? Just think how awful it would be for large organizations to make decisions on moral and ethical grounds!
November 21st, 2022 at 9:34 AM ^
Right? Just think how awful it would be for large organizations to make decisions on moral and ethical grounds!
You're kinda making his point for him.
Of course there's nothing wrong with that on paper -- don't be so obtuse.
The reality of when orgs follow through and put their money where their mouth is, is entirely a different matter. And it's safe to assume that people have been burned by placing their faith in what turns out to be performative statements when the reality is it's business as usual.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:40 AM ^
Maybe you're not familiar with the lingo but the reason social justice virtue signaling is such a travesty is that by definition it has zero real world impact. That's clearly what Mgrowold meant.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:56 AM ^
<insert that's bingo gif>
November 21st, 2022 at 8:58 AM ^
How am I supposed to know how good of an education I got?
November 21st, 2022 at 10:19 AM ^
Step 1: Look at your diploma.
Step 2: Does it say "Michigan State" or "Ohio State"?
Step 3: If not, then you are good.
November 21st, 2022 at 8:58 AM ^
November 21st, 2022 at 9:01 AM ^
This is the right decision. Good move.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:27 AM ^
Preemptive decision to head off sanctions after some professors were found to be handing out free cream cheese to students to put on their morning bagels.
November 21st, 2022 at 9:29 AM ^
they disincentivize programs that support public interest careers, champion need-based aid and welcome working-class students into the profession
This is fucking laughable; it's hypocritical at best.
As a non-traditional student, someone who grew up very poor, and someone who worked their way through undergrad to graduate without any debt, there's no way I would have ever been accepted at Michigan Law -- even if I got a 175 on the LSAT.
One could argue Ross is full of elitists too.
November 21st, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^
As a non-traditional student, someone who grew up very poor, and someone who worked their way through undergrad to graduate without any debt, there's no way I would have ever been accepted at Michigan Law -- even if I got a 175 on the LSAT.
I don't follow your logic; there's not a single thing listed in this paragraph that would hamper your chances at getting into to MLaw. A "non-traditional student . . . who grew up very poor, . . . worked their way through undergrad to graduate without any debt, . . . [and] got a 175 on the LSAT" would have an excellent chance at getting into Michigan's law school. The admissions department loves that kind of story (and I've gotten to know a number of the admissions officers over the years).
The only thing I can even think you might be suggesting is that because you worked through college, you got poor grades. Yeah, maybe if you graduated with a 2.0 or something you'd have a hard time overcoming that even with a high LSAT, but my guess is that someone with your story, say even a 2.7 GPA, and a 175 on the LSAT would have a very good chance of getting in.
There's either more to the story that you're leaving out, or you're just misinformed abut how Michigan's admissions work...
November 21st, 2022 at 10:41 AM ^
I don't follow your logic; there's not a single thing listed in this paragraph that would hamper your chances at getting into to MLaw.
Becuase they don't admit on test scores alone. There's a lot of other activities and such I didn't have the chance to participate in or get other experience in.
There's either more to the story that you're leaving out, or you're just misinformed abut how Michigan's admissions work
I have 2 degrees from Michigan.
Learn to make a point without making it a personal attack. Troll on.