OT: Would you advise new or upcoming Michigan grads to stay in state after college?
We had dinner at Gandy Dancer with my niece, who just earned an english degree from Michigan. She made it seem pretty matter-of-factly all of her friends are moving to New York, Seattle, Washington D.C. and California. This fall we'll have a pair of children at the University and it'd be a bummer if we'll need airline tickets to visit them after college. What's the pitch to get kids to stay?
As a Michigan Grad still in my 20s whose post-grad life has included jobs in Ann Arbor, Detroit, and Asia, I can tell you there is no pitch. We just go to where the best job offer is regardless.
bingo - "it depends". What do they want to do after college and does the state facilitate that?
The more interesting question: what are the (realistic) expectations for a person graduating from UM with a bachelors in English in this day & age? I'm not trying to be facetious or condescending here - genuinely curious since I went through engineering undergrad and probably had a different mindset.
Almost anything. It's an LSA degree where the student learns how to think critically, write intelligently, and problem solve. Some go on to get a Masters or another professional degree, but you can really spin it anyway you want. I have friends with LSA degrees from 10-15 years ago that are mid-high level execs with Amazon, Google, Ford, and other Fortune 500 companies.
This, a thousand times, this.
I lived with a bunch of engineering majors who scoffed at my LSA studies in communications and history. I was a senior editor by 27, a creative director by 30, a vice president by 40...and now I'm in grad school for a career change.
LSA degrees work for nearly anything, because the ability to think critically and write about it are traits every job needs. Being educated is a good thing, especially when you aren't pigeonholed to one particular trade or job.
I mostly like your post and the one above it, but I've never believed that critical thinking is something that can be taught. You either have the capacity and tendency or you don't.
Does a liberal arts curriculum improve the odds? Sure.
While I'm here, I definitely don't believe that study of engineering makes development of that skill less likely. Au contraire, it's another possible route.
Look at a paper you write in high school, then tell us critical thinking can't be taught in college.
Bingo. An English degree opens all kinds of doors. Year in and year out, the highest acceptance rates for law and medical schools are English majors, because they tend to be the brightest bulbs.
As a undergrad English major with an MFA in creative writing (ha!) and with 20 years in the workforce -- from small marketing agencies to fortune 500 corporate environment -- I can say that English majors are generally good writers. And good writers are in general pretty good listeners, thinkers, and versatile talent.
And now, from the point of view of someone managing and hiring a lot of talent, versatile talent is what I want. Also, from the employee's perspective, being versatile opens up all kinds of career path options -- at least from what I've seen in my limited corner of the world.
I was the same way. Also there are roughly <number of non-midwestern states> states with better climates vs the midwest, imo. However, when my wife and I started having kids, that was the impetus to look for jobs closer to home. It was great having them close to their grandparents, cousins, etc.
So maybe they leave - but maybe they come back when it matters most. I'm lucky to be in a field where remote work is fairly common so had the option to come back without needing to find a job in Michigan. Because, sadly, we aren't really creating many jobs that are attractive to skilled workers (versus Washington, California, New York, North Carolina, even places like Austin TX or Denver CO).
My focus is on software engineering, perhaps that's different for other engineering specialties - auto companies and such.
Sort of an aside, but y'all are just writing off another summer by letting the legislators drag their feet on dispensaries. Living in Austin I was surprised how many folks would vacation to Colorado specifically because of that availability. With Michigan's great lakes... I mean a lot of people would come in and vacation in the northwest for a wine country / pot/ lake michigan beaches vacation.
Tourism absolutely should be part of Michigan's dna, and if you can offer a reason for folks to visit that first time I think it'd definitely pay dividends down the road. It's a gorgeous state.
Cheers.
The most important thing is that they like their jobs, no matter where they are. A desirable location, whether it's in Michigan or one of those big cities or anywhere else, isn't going to be worth it if they hate their jobs. I don't think anyone can really say that staying in Michigan is better or worse than taking a job out of state. You just have to evaluate their offers and choose the best fit for them, wherever it may be.
There aren't enough jobs in Michigan so my advice is be open to the idea of leaving.
Agreed. Graduated in May ‘01 and left for greener pastures in june ‘01. Bounced across the country for the last 18 years. My folks enjoyed traveling to see me, because they got to see things they never would have otherwise.
Same. Lived in CA for a few years and Denver for less than one. My mom loves the chance to visit these places, which she wouldn't have otherwise.
Well. Sort of. Depends on the job and your qualifications. The job market is definitely way better than it was during and before the recession.
There's tens of thousands of unfilled jobs in Michigan. Ones you can make a decent living off of. They just don't require (or really want) someone with an LSA degree from Michigan.
Things like construction (electricians and mechanics are in huge demand), factory jobs, machining jobs. Also, computer science jobs have been on the rise in Michigan (up something like 30% since the late 2000s). There's a number of life science jobs available as well (analytical chemists, biologists etc.).
Send them the link to the Pure Michigan website. Honestly I have stayed in Michigan for 30 years since graduating from Michigan and I can't wait to get out to somewhere warmer.
I think it is a pretty relative question, and it depends on what they value. It is very appealing to go out and experience other places(I am doing this now), but my intention is to move back to Michigan in the coming years. The job I took out of state was too good to pass up, but we are all in a pending state of "when do we move back", so that takes the pressure off my family about whether or not we will move back.
The biggest allure about moving back is that all of my family is in Metro-Detroit, and no job is great enough for me and my wife to stay away for too long. Probably goes hand in hand with the graduate's aspirations(or lack thereof) for family life.
I think this is just good reality. When you are young and relatively unattached, it is great to go wherever life takes you. Get a job, get experience, live in new places. The pitch will be when they are older and married and have kids. Experience in work will allow them to get good jobs back here hopefully, and the lower cost of living and free babysitting of family is a large appeal. Distance makes the heart grow fonder too.
Same here.
My fiancee and I have been living in Boston for 5 years (3 for her) but we are planning on moving back next summer because all of our family has returned to Michigan. Parents and siblings all reside in Metro Detroit or Lansing.
My fiancee is going to get kneecapped salary wise (high school math teachers in Boston make almost 40% more than Michigan counterparts) and the COL won't decrease by the same amount so we're going to be coming out behind, but it's the cost of being close to family as time goes by I suppose.
While I think it's hard to give a blanket 'go' or 'stay' just because any state will have pockets of burgeoning prosperity and pockets of stagnation or depression, I think I'd probably tell the generic Michigan grad to go.
I grew up in Michigan and wouldn't change a thing about that, it was a wonderful place to grow up and my family still lives there so I visit them often. That said (and again, I'm speaking in general generic terms here, so YMMV depending on individual circumstances), there are so many areas of this country that are absolutely booming with highly driven, highly successful people and industries that I'd tell the grad to go immerse themselves in that for awhile.
There's also value in moving somewhere that the young adult has to learn to handle things without having mom and dad within a few hours for a fall-back. Car breaks down on the highway, they learn to deal with it rather than having their parent drive a loaner vehicle over for the week, things like that.
I'm aligned with you. I think that it builds character to venture out into the world. I have friends in Michigan who have never lived more than 100 miles from the hospital they were born in and that's a little sad.
I wouldn't trade growing up in Michigan for anything.....but it would take fairly extreme circumstances for me to move back. I've lived in South Carolina, North Carolina and now Florida. Business has taken me to California and New Jersey for extended periods. I consider North Carolina to be home and hope to get back there one day.
In my era it seemed everyone ended up in Chicago, at least for a few years. Jobs...
I suspect we're the same era. Three to five hr drive (or 1 hr flight or 5hr train ride) Chicago was always a very approachable big city for anyone in the Midwest. But 22 year old niece made it seem like Chicago is blasé to her cohort (and she referenced harsh winters). I bet tech and social media has played a major part in making previously intimidating coastal cities much more accessible. iPhones, FaceTime, Google Maps, LinkedIn, Michigan's Handshake Online Career Portal, Facebook makes 600 miles (NYC) and 2,500 miles (California) and 1,300 miles (Texas) not seem nearly as daunting as they were in the 80s and 90s. And of course there's increased concentration of the so-called super zip codes, which are largely and increasingly coastal and Sun Belt clusters.
I think this depends on personalities and aspirations. I believe Chicago is still a top destination for high earning 20somethings, but it is probably not a super interesting spot for someone with a freshly minted English degree because of the lack of career options there outside of writing ad copy. New York or California would be much more appealing to someone aspiring to write, Chicago would be more appealing for someone planning on entering some nebulous "business" careerpath or doing something vaguely industrial like chemistry or mechanical engineering.
There are worse places to be, but my salary in NY far exceeds what it would be in MI and my home was a lot cheaper than it would have been in A^2.
I think young people should live all over the country/world before they settle down, so... that's a hard "no" from me.
It's tough, OP, and I'm sure you care a lot about your kids since you want to to spend as much time with them as you can. Michigan has a ton to offer - generally lower cost of living, good people, lots of outdoor activities year-round depending on your tastes, relatively disaster-immune, surrounded by fresh water....could go on.
But you gotta let them go and follow jobs, happiness, and fulfilling lives. Most people I know that "moved away" post-college spent a few years living the young 20s life, got married, and moved back to Michigan or the midwest come baby time. It's a great place to live for many people and they'll see that and may even want it for themselves, but not if you're pitching it to them.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. It's should never be about wanting your kids to stay so you can see them more often and not have to pay to fly somewhere else. I'm sure it's coming from a good place, but that's the selfish point of view, as a parent. I'm not quite there yet (mine are 13 and 11), but many of my friends have had to deal with letting go of their kids.
It should be about what's best for each of your kids, and it will be different for each child. Tell them you'd love for them to stay, if only for selfish reasons, but that you ultimately want them to be happy and fulfilled in what they're doing with their lives. If it means Michigan, great. If it means halfway across the globe, that's also great.
There is no real pitch at that age unless it involves jobs and friends. In that there are going to go where their job takes them and/or where their friends are. That’s what’s important at thy age.
With that, I do think it changes as they get older and settle into marriage/family. Having other family around is super beneficial. However, marriage is at a 100 year low and birth rates are dropping in America. So you might have an up hill battle.
Go where you get the best opportunity to advance your career. That's really it.
Just one man's opinion, granted, but I don't see any other "pitch" beyond some really bad extenuating circumstances. My parents always taught me to go where you get the best opportunities, and that's exactly what I've done (worked in Shanghai, NYC, New Orleans and Atlanta).
Don't sell yourself and your career short.
If they have a great opportunity, sure, why the hell not?
That being said, there are reasons why her friends are moving to those places: jobs, intellectual capital, and social opportunities are far more abundant than most places in Michigan (outside of Ann Arbor and, increasingly, Detroit.)
I'm someone that left Michigan, came back, stayed for a bit, then left again. I'd move back if Ann Arbor came calling for some very compelling reason (no, I'm not on the list to be the new coach).
CC: JamesBondHerpesMeds, start the thread.
After my Becky Hammon thread went hog wild, I'm stepping away from all CC correspondence. :)
I left and every time I go back I'm happy I did. I love Michigan, but hate the winters, the roads and the highway billboards. My father is aging and I miss my family but my kids will have better opportunities here than they would in Michigan, meaning they are less likely to leave me. If they do I'll move to where they are when I retire. Good luck.
Class of 2018 here it is all jobs jobs jobs. If the best job they get offered is in San Francisco then there really is not anything you can do. Some people I know stayed in Michigan for Wayne Med or Michigan Law and an even smaller number got a really good offer at Quicken but everyone I know who stayed in Detroit for their first post grad job has now transferred or switched jobs out of state. There just isnt anything Michigan offers.
"Please undermine your careers for our convenience"?
We have a winner.
Honestly if you are from Michigan and your kid is going to school at Michigan living in another part of the country or world at some point in their life is good for your kid, not bad.
Also it just depends on what they want but most of the "top" jobs are not in Michigan.
I guess it comes down to what you want to do, what industry you want to be in, and a whole myriad of other things. I don't think it can be a "go or stay" up and down decision, especially not in Michigan. For what I do and the industry I landed in, it works out really nicely, but typically, I would tell people to explore all their options, even if they aren't in this state (in many other industries, the best options aren't here).
I stayed but only because I got the best job offer here. I'm in an ad/martech role, where most of the industry is out west, and my current company gave me an offer competitive with west coast salary, which combined with a much lower cost of living was a slam dunk choice.
If I want to advance in my career, however, I'd almost have to leave, which I'm probably gonna look into in a yearish.
Are there good jobs in Michigan for recent college grads?
Are there good social opportunities that don't involve heading straight back to college parties?
Lots of questions to be answered that may not have the answers you want. In my experience you go to where the job is and then make the best of it, if it's in Michigan, great, if not, great. I was one of the few and the proud to stay in Michigan after graduation from Ross and while I loved it, my wife just couldn't handle the weather and now we're in Nashville where both of us are happy AND far away from either of our parents(I also get a LOT less pressure to move closer to her family now that she's somewhere that she's happy). If you've done a good job raising them they'll make the right decision for them and you'll figure out how to see them.
It's all very personal to people, but thinking back on the 20 years since I graduated, I wish I was more open to moving when I graduated. I have a good career and am really happy with what I've done professionally, but there is a bit of "what if" that is in my mind because I never considered moving.
Most Michigan grads are going to be driven to compete at the highest level and with companies that recruit the best talent. Where you do it is less important than the actual doing. And let's face it, NYC is a whole lot more palatable with regard to spacial compromises and limited disposable income when you're 23 than when you're 33. Best opportunities and new experiences should be every Michigan graduate's calling, not to mention every parent's.
by definition, helicopter parenting assumes travel
Guilt trip them that their parents can't afford the plane tickets to visit them out of state.
There is no 'pitch'. You only get to support their decision, whichever way that goes. You don't have to like it - you can tell them you don't like it, but you have to support it because its their freakin' life. Hopefully, from our perspective as parents, they'll solicit advice on what to do. That's when you get your chance to appeal to family as a fallback if things go bad for them (but that fallback is always there, whether they live close to home, or not), and give them the advice you want them to have.
I would recommend against offering unsolicited advice, though. That usually doesn't work out...
Depends on your child. I moved out to Boston after graduating and there was almost 0 chance I was going to be dissuaded from leaving. That's because I always wanted to get out of the Midwest (Chicago was never an attractive option for me) and experience something new when I had the chance.
If your child isn't of that mindset, I guess the pitch could be:
1) Proximity to family - Going home for the holidays doesn't take a 2+ hour flight costing $300+ and time wasted at the airport. Getting a home cooked family dinner is possible. BUT, in a lot of cases, being too close to family is a problem so while it is a big part of the "pitch" allowing them the freedom of not having to feel suffocated by friends and family is something to balance. Having family nearby is a plus, but too close and too much will make it a minus.
2) Job market - My fiancee is going to get kneecapped when we move back (high school math teacher). That's the nature of the Midwest and Michigan. Having some reasonable assurance (not that you can provide that) of a good job that pays relatively well would make staying more attractive because it would no longer be a negative. Metro Detroit, Grand Rapids, even if they move to Ohio or Chicago to find something, it just has to be an attractive option in some way.
3) COL - This was a big one for me. Boston is stupid expensive and even with all the budgeting and saving I've done, when we move back we're going to be starting off relatively low on the asset spectrum (grad school is playing a part in that). Michigan's COL isn't equally less compared to Boston as my fiancee's salary will be, but the housing stock is much more attainable back in Michigan. If your child leaves and then returns home, unless they make bank while they're away, they probably won't be able to seamlessly transition into a 3 bedroom house, in a good school district, on track for college savings plans and retirement.
If you and a majority of your family stay in Michigan, chances are your children will return as they get older and want to start a family. Having grandma and grandpa around to see their grandchildren grow up (and free babysitting) is a huge draw and in large part why my fiancee and I will be moving back next summer. If they're not dead set on leaving, the Midwest has options. Metro Detroit, Grand Rapids, Ohio has a couple of bigger cities, Chicago, Indianapolis, even Pittsburgh is within driving distance.
Your 20s are the time to experience new things and move away. It might suck as the parent watching your kid leave, but the experiences will probably be worth it, or at least not be a detriment to their futures.
Obviously, having jobs available is important, but the cost of living in those cities is astronomical compared to the midwest. I think that looking at a mock budget of working/living in those cities vs. Michigan would be the smartest thing to do. There are other cities to consider as well. Everything in Texas is cheap and Dallas and Houston have a lot of jobs. Ultimately, if they are willing to sacrifice some monthly spending for the lifestyle that comes with living in a city, then it still may be worthwhile for them to move to a bigger city. If they want to settle down, buy a house, and have kids sooner rather than later, then they probably want to consider Michigan ahead of some of the more expensive areas of the country.
I have three kids 32, 30 & 28(not M grads). One is an MD & the other two have masters degrees.
One lives in Florida, one in Chicago, one in Toledo. They have to go where the jobs are and where theirs lives take them.
I graduated in MechE and went to work at one of the Big Three in engine design. As a kid who grew up wrenching on cars, it was my dream job (after pitching for the Tigers). But I moved to Chicago to follow my future spouse after she finished grad school.
It should be about the job and the industry that they are going to work in. And if they are leaving college with a serious partner/future spouse, it needs to balance the needs and desires of the serious partner/future spouse.
And honestly, once they start their careers and have families, they are going to be far busier than you will be. You should look forward to the opportunity to go visit them.
Guilt tripping them to stay at home when there are many other pressures that they will be dealing with is a very selfish perspective.
I grew up in Michigan, lived 5 years in Seattle, and have settled in Central Washington now... I can't think of a single compelling reason to live in Michigan over other places in the country like Washington. It's hard to argue with a world class city, mountains, ocean, rivers, lakes, etc. all within a two hour drive.