OT: WFH, Quiet Quitting, and Overemployment

Of course.  In other words, "life very often isn't fair, not everyone is always rewarded for effort."

Everyone learns that at some point.  Not to be philosophical, but it's one choice how to react to that.  

In a perfectly fair world --- relationships would only end if/when both parties mutually agreed upon such, or both parties died simultaneously.  There would be no widows painfully mourning the loss of a beloved spouse, wondering how they could possibly move forward.  No two young men would/could fancy the same pretty girl, because one of them ultimately won't land her.  No two equally competent people could apply for the same job, because one of them will not land it.  Thunderstorms would need to be rather strange creatures, because they would only drop rain on evil people instead of the evil and just alike.  Et cetera.

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a perfectly fair world!  And I say that as one who believes in an eternal afterlife!  I think some struggle and pain will be a part of the next life too.

While I agree with your sentiment overall, I prepared my son slightly differently.

While I am within 5 years of retiring and my son is a senior in college and entering the workforce next spring.  What I told him is that applying yourself and hard work do payoff, but you need perspective regarding it.

In my 35+ years of working there are only 5 instances where my career path bumped up significantly.  So on average once every 7 years.  So the hard work pays off, but you need the patience to see it through.  This also came with challenges that needed to be worked through.  If there is a situation that does not fit for you keep applying yourself, but find yourself a better situation.

As a reference, I started out of college working as a 3rd shift temp worker making minimal wage in at an injection molding factory to now I am a Project Manger for a major corporation.  That was my path it only worked for me because I applied myself no matter what my job description detailed...

Spot on KBLOW. I've worked my butt, worked all through covid with no bonus, no extra benefits. Nothing. I even volunteered to work midnights during covid to split people up at work, because there is only 20 or so people in my area licensed to do my job. 

Yeah, they never really were "fairly" rewarded in a corporate environment.  If there's a difference, it's probably only in our own perception of work.  And I would argue this current perception is getting back to uniquely "American" relationships with enterprises.

I think after the collective, industrial effort to win WW2, Americans carried forward this (rare for Americans) collectivism and acceptance of a large paternalistic workplace.  Corporations exploded post WW2 in a staggering way, swallowing up small businesses. And that was enabled by a high trust for authority that is now waning again. Probably also aided by a post-war competitive landscape that was extremely favorable (China closed off, Japan and Europe decimated, etc) and the gravy train was long and full.  Kind of a tangent, I guess.

The thing about corporate life is that for anyone other than a small number of people on the right ladders, there is little reason to do / little reward for doing more than the "bare minimum" beyond one's own personal satisfaction. And note that the ladder for you may not be open at your current company but there may be a spot open at another.

Big corps are designed precisely to commodify most work.  Which is fine because most people want to punch in, do their job, and go home.

The example of the OPs wife is a classic one.  And nursing in a hospital is probably especially commodified depending on the ownership (increasingly owned by PE firms).  Unless there is a clear path to a management / leadership position, going above and beyond won't be rewarded by the hospital so I don't blame her for not doing it (and they don't have much reason to pay her for it!).   And healthcare is a largely fixed demand market.  People don't consumer more of it, if the product is good.  They consume pretty much exactly what they have to.  Sorry, another tangent.

But the antidote to corporate life is entrepreneurship.  That's the way high achievers can get rewarded proportionately (or moreso) to their effectiveness.  Really always been that way.  If you bring more value than your employer or any other employer is able to reward (which is totally normal - they may already have most of the skillset you can bring), you have to become the employer.

Agree. If you're working less, etc. then you're not "quitting." And--honestly--not many people can just not work, period, without getting fired.

But a lot of people are outright quitting, including doctors in my network. Our health plan was once one of the highest rated in the country, and has of late fallen off the map in quality of care. I'm currently a month out with a heart issue from getting tested, and spending days playing phone tag to talk to people in my primary physician's office. I've known her for fifteen years, and like her. When I asked what was going on (I'd been out of the country), she described the last two years as extraordinary stressful, said that I must get used to it because doctors are quitting in droves, going early or when they can without people to replace them. 

Personally, I don't see easy remedies to these problems. The notion that people 'don't want to work' is, to me, facile. Everyone in the world likes meaningful work, and a lot of work isn't meaningful and doesn't pay enough to live on, either. I don't blame anyone for not taking a job if it won't cover rent, food, etc. And I don't blame small businesspeople, either; most can't make their margins if they pay employees anything approaching a middle-class 'living' wage. Universal health care would help (and I understand that some fast food companies are for it), but I think that part of the truth is that we're overbuilt, that a certain kind of consumerism is unsustainable. We just may see a shrinking back in the direction of concerns that meet people's basic needs. We really might not need a Starbuck's on every corner.   

Yeah, for one, the term "quiet-quitting" is totally a misnomer. 

Even the terminology is stupid. It assumes that not doing more than is expected/asked is automatically insufficient and worthy of being fired/quitting. It gives the benefit of the doubt to the employer rather than the employee.

My firm's promotion structure includes expectations (not said during interviews) like putting hours to firm initiatives, business development, "thought leadership," and pro-bono stuff. So while I am fully staffed on a project, sometimes going over those hours, I'm also expected to essentially donate time to the firm in order to "differentiate" myself from peers. If I do a great job on my project, that's not really showing how "bought into" the firm I am. Again, I could be doing my day to day job wonderfully, providing support to my team, client, and other things but that's not really "enough." And that's stupid. My firm doesn't pay me for the internal stuff, it's not part of my offer letter or discussed during interviews.

The whole quiet quitting thing is being used to blur the lines between people who do their job, usually do it well, and then go home with those who aren't doing well enough to really be considered "good" at their jobs. It's a tactic to get people to put in even more time, energy, and effort for fear of being lumped in with the people who should probably look for a different job or career.

I think a lot of the difference in thinking on this is generational. I'm older (57) and I was brought up by my stepfather who believed that hard work in itself was virtuous. It was a self-esteem thing. I also worked in an industry where it was macho, and thus desirable, to practically kill yourself while doing your job, where poor working conditions were a badge of honor if you made it through (in kitchens). When I was in the corporate world, I was expected to work crazy hours at times (15 hour days, sometimes pulling all-nighters) without much reward. But again, it was the virtue of hard work that was important. I was freelance for a long time and I never said no to a job, even if I didn't want to take it. It was drilled into my head that work shouldn't be taken for granted and you should take every job, and that was a hard habit to break. 

WTF happened to having pride in you work? Whatever you do. Sure, don’t go above and beyond but if you’re that unhappy find a new job/career.

You can have pride in your work without willingly doing extra unpaid labor that your employer doesn't recognize or compensate. That doesn't mean you dislike your job or that you aren't prideful about it. It just means you've set healthy boundaries. By all means, please continue to do unpaid extra labor and lick your employer's boot if you so choose, but people are realizing that it usually yields no benefit in today's society

It's all cool.  I generally agree with you --- except that I hope to never use the phrase "fucking kids nowadays!"  I'm in my 40s now, which isn't old but it isn't young either.  I never want to look down on the youth.

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I think there's something to Muhammad Ali's quote: "I would have been the world's greatest at whatever I did. If I were a garbage man, I'd be the world's greatest garbage man! I'd pick up more garbage and faster than anyone has ever seen. To tell you the truth, I would have been the greatest at whatever I'd done!"

I have no doubt - he WOULD have been.  He had pride, and even if he never was formally recognized as the world's greatest garbage man, he would have acted like it.

I mentioned my own layoff last October.  It sucked - but I KNOW this: I mattered, I had great relationships with my team, and I made an impact for that company.  Looking back in retrospect 47 Fridays later, that's 100% good enough, I regret none of it.

Yeah, nobody ever did the bare minimum at a job before 2020. Definitely a kids these days thing. 

Your snark aside ---- as I said above, I regret none of it.  Also as I've said, I  don't think negatively of the "quiet quitters."

Different strokes for different folks.

IDK man. I hear your point above about setting healthy boundaries (I've struggled with this myself throughout my life) but at the same time, you can't measure your success and happiness only through pay. I have stayed late to put finishing touches on projects that I didn't get paid for because it feels rewarding to create something that I'm proud of. The money is definitely important and it's easy for this to go unnoticed. Not every employer deliberately under pays the hard workers. It's just important to be confident enough in your own work that if you feel you're not being compensated fairly, you can have a conversation with your employer. If they dont respect that enough and you truly deserve better, there are ways to find better options. 

Don’t be an ass

Amen - just seeing his dad in that shirt was a phenomenon that I wanted to conjure up for those who have been initiated.