OT: On the opposite side of the coin
Reading Brian's latest post got me thinking. I really sympathize with all those who are having a really hard time adjusting to what has happened over the last year. The changes that this virus has wrought was not welcomed by most and many are going through some tough times.
However, at least for me, it has been a positive change overall. I am no longer wasting an hour or more fighting the rush-hour traffic. My work-life has been very efficient as I only spend time working, well, working (not all the miscellaneous stuff you do when you are at work). I sleep in a bit more, get up and have my morning set of meetings, then workout or go for a run, shower and I am ready for the second half of the day. I have never been in a better shape since college.
I have done a TON of work around the house, cleaning, fixing various things that I never had time for. I spend my afternoon preparing dinners for my family (I enjoy cooking) and am spending much more time with my daughter who is going to school from home.
Frankly, even when the things open back up, I am planning to keep my current schedule/habits (which won't be to hard with my job).
My only big gripe is the fact that I haven't been able to travel abroad, but overall, I like my current life much more than before.
Has anyone else have this experience where you are more satisfied with your life since COVID?
Yes, big time, and I have no desire to go back to the way things were. I also feel very sad for people who are struggling. I am very fortunate in the fact that I am surrounded by tons of family and friends who I have been able to spend my extra time with.
I'm with you regarding my professional life. I love working at home and am very fortunate to have a job that allows me the ability to do so. I have social anxiety issues, so not having to interact physically with co-workers on a daily basis has been a godsend for me. My normal commute isn't horrible, but I'm still "saving" 60-80 minutes per day by not taking a car to the bus stop, then riding the bus in to work. I sleep in a little later and am generally less stressed.
Paradoxically, I have exercised more consistently during my work-at-home phase, but have gained at least 10 pounds in the last year. I think the refrigerator is too accessible at home. Or maybe I'm just getting muscularly swole?
Things are a lot more normal up north, and people are way more relaxed about all the Covid stuff. Thus, life up here has not been as much of a grind as many of you have had to endure. My heart goes out greatly to those people that are isolated, and Brian if you read this I don’t know you but I’m very sorry for the toll that it’s taking on you - and you are not alone as I’m sure many others are in that same boat. suffering like that weighs on my heart and I wish that we can open up everywhere and get back to normal very soon.
I've adjusted mostly ok and I am probably even slightly better than pandemic-fine; left to my own devices I would've been spending most of my waking time at home with the wife and doggies anyways. And it's made me appreciate my family even more - while they were already my world, those bonds have only deepened and reinforced by having each other to hold on to. Also I now work from home 3/5 days per week, which reduces the skulldruggery of having to go into the office each day and drink the swill that passes for 'coffee' there instead of fresh French press I make at home.
I've nonetheless had frequent bouts of questioning how healthy that is. As in, maybe I *should* be feeling more out of sorts than I am? Or like maybe I am a little screwed up precisely *because* of my ability to compartmentalize and double-down on my natural introversion?
As I read the first part of your post (showering, going for runs, doing housework), I immediately said to myself, this person either doesn't have children or has children who are older.
That is true. My daughter is now a freshmen in college...
This comment speaks to my soul.
+100000. I have five kiddos ages 3 to 13 and the past year has been something. It helps to develop the right perspective early on. I realized that I was given an opportunity to spend a lot of time with five people that I will miss dearly when they go off to college. Instead of being surrounded by people concerned about paychecks, I was surrounded by people that have loved me their entire lives.
oh so true re: loved ones. our five youngest are teenagers. i just told the 2021 son how much we're going to miss him when he goes off to football camp at college in august. it's been such a joy to have them all around. i seriously don't know what i'm going to do in a few years when they're all gone.
I know man. A family across the street from me has a son playing baseball for Oakland U. He came home yesterday for the weekend and his parents came out and gave him huge bear hugs. And he only lives 20 miles away.
When my parents dropped me off for college, my dad cried from Detroit to South Quad. I know I'll be doing that times five.
For some reason, I'm thinking you'll then be kept somewhat busy with visits to and visits from future grandkids.
Yea we had our Covid-era baby and working from home went from awesome to completely sucking.
Same, we were allowed to WFH a couple days a week prior and this has opened up management's eyes that we can be just as efficient at home and I think it will probably stay that way for those that want to continue. I have about the same schedule/experiences as you. I have kids and it is so much easier dealing with them and getting them off to school without me having to get up, get ready, drop them off, go to the office, etc. We get up, I throw on some sweats or whatever, check some emails and see if anything happened the night before at work, get them off to school, and then am back at my home desk faster than if I had to go to the office. I work out around lunch or so and get way more time to do so than when I was at the office and went to the gym. I still went over lunch, but having to get there, change, shower, return, etc. was a pain. Plus, I've saved a ton of money from parking, gym membership, before and after school care, etc. I hate that a freaking pandemic had to occur for me to get these benefits, but I guess you have to look on the bright side of things even in terrible situations. I also know and think a lot about how lucky we are to be able to have this experience and def feel for those that are out of work or became sick.
I am personally very conscious to not confuse the lifestyle benefits of remote work with the pandemic itself as I was mostly working remote before the pandemic as well.
I understand that a lot of people only saw this option open up to them due to the pandemic, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a feature of the pandemic.
I like the lack of commute - though I honestly didn't really mind it so much when I just had to go to the office twice a week - but I miss:
- Movie theaters
- Indoor restaurant dining
- Travel (I have no relations in driving distance, so this includes spending holidays with extended family)
- Worry-free shopping in stores. While many stores are open, it's a rush-in rush-out experience, I miss being able to wander around in a mall aimlessly, take my time checking out new products in stores etc.
- Sporting events / concerts / leisure facilities
- The general sense that strangers you encounter are interesting rather than potentially dangerous.
I don't know if I 'suffer' per se during the pandemic, I'm not alone and I am employed, but I do feel like joy has been sucked out of life to a considerable degree. Maybe my routine life is somewhat 'easier' now, but everything that normally represents a sort of change of pace, a novelty, a matter of intrigue..has gone away or sucks now.
I fucking hate this shit.
I'm a people person. I want in person meetings for the board I serve on. I want to go with those same people to happy hour after (which is getting easier). I want to take my kid to the minor league baseball games again. I want to go to the movies and have all the concessions open. I don't ever want someone to try to make me feel guilty for golfing again. (I was in that photo of golfers on the tee at Stonewater last year. Thanks MLive).
Life is not a 0 risk proposition. I accept some risk. My kids have been at school in person, so I am glad about that.
I love it. For some people work is their purpose, or their source for social interaction. I've always said that work is just what I have to do before starting "my" day. Even though I have a great job and love it, I'm not going there everyday bc it's the top choice of things I'd like to do that day when I wake up.
And I agree that work is so inefficient. Travel time, taking a lunch, chit-chatting with coworkers/customers/vendors/reps about non-work topics. It's like being forced to take a study hall when you have no homework to do. From home, I can get my work done in a few hours, and the rest of the "work day" I just have to be accessible and monitor emails/texts/calls. Which means I can hop on the treadmill, lay by the pool in the summer, lift some weights, work on the yard or house projects, etc -- instead of being like "welp, not much going on right now in the office, let's waste an hour talking about Billy's Tee ball game or the new trending show on Netflix". I hate wasted time, especially when the sun is out.
+ WFH, no work travel, family time with my young kids, slow pace/more time for simple things.
- no family within 2000 miles. Isolation. Kids home school for a year has negative impact. Lack of social contact overall.
Net: love WFH but prefer not to do this again in my lifetime.
A year in I have mixed feelings about this business. I'll stick to some work positives here:
- I don't miss the noisy assclowns in my work environment.
- My employer is getting a better deal overall. Without the commute and office noise I'm definitely getting more done. Also, I'm much more likely to address issues in the early morning / late evening than I was in the old world.
- The uselessness of a couple directors became increasingly apparent in the WFH atmosphere. Shortening a long story, they were both demoted. Not sure this would've happened without the pandemic ...
Thoughts and prayers to those who can list only negatives ... I hope the variants don't get traction and that this all ends soon.
I don't miss the noisy assclowns in my work environment.
I much prefer dealing with them in my inbox and not in my ear.
The directors at my co were the only ones who didn’t like WFH on a company poll. This is because they do nothing and many of them didn’t work from the bottom of the group they’re “directing” so they have no idea what’s going on day to day unless someone reaches out and tells them. They’re really quite worthless.
As a director I fully agree with you and strongly encourage an overhaul of outdated norms in corporations related to structure, WFH policies, and truly understanding productivity, leadership, and advancement. It’s bullshit politics, stupid, bad for employees and bad for shareholders. Even if it means I personally lose title, status, whatever. The system is crap and I would love and encourage change.
Interestingly, in our family there are two different views of the past year. I am grateful for the basics: my wife and I remained employed, we were healthy (knock on wood), we went on daily walks, her parents didn't come to visit. She focuses more on what was lost and is angry and bitter about our son losing his final trimester of school, final athletic season, and mostly losing graduation week with prom, baccalaurette, prize day (which he won something we never could have guessed), and graduation with its remarkabe ceremony by the sea.
Pounds did get added on, yet not having to do my 100 mile commute was great, as was being more flexible with my work time. Long lunches hanging by the lake if it was hot, sailing if it was windy, house projects between work emails. And I think I was more productive.
My son found a new sport he loves, a new summer job that turned out great and took a gap year with a remarkable opportunity and is having an incredible experience. Yet, my wife will still breakdown when she is reminded of graduation. And I've learned you don't try to cheer your wife up by pointing out all the positives or how bad it could have been. You acknowledge her feelings and let her know her feelings are valid. Over and over again. That is probably the most valuable thing I learned this year. And I still get it wrong.
I've enjoyed the past 12 months. I spend most of the day with my wife (Yes I'm saying that's a good thing). Me and my kids spend more time together.
The biggest thing to me is how much money and time I have now. Without sports to consume my evenings and weekends, there's time to do the things I need to do and not miss out on sleep. I can't go to restaurants as much, so I'm eating healthier. Plus, the extra time not spent traveling to work frees me up to cook some of those healthy meals.
The biggest thing that our family did was still take family drives. We had to get out of the house, even if it was just to drive downtown and back. When things open back up, I don't think we'll change things too much.
I am much happier under covid. It has allowed me to move back to the Mitten state. I received a promotion and huge raise. My kids are doing much better through virtual learning than in classroom. I am considering selling one car and just becoming a single vehicle household since I telecommute now and my kids will continue virtual learning.
I empathize with those who are struggling, but I count my blessings for the way my immediate family has thrived.
I don't get what you mean with "my kids will continue virtual learning". Surely unless you consciously do home schooling they will go back to the classrooms whenever your local district decides it's time (which could be next year but could also be relatively soon).
Many districts (and in some states are being mandated) are choosing to offer a permanent remote learning option for students who prefer it. Viva progress!
I think a ton of families realized they were moving too fast and chasing a lot of stuff that didn’t matter.
I know this will engender some frowns, but I didn’t really change anything. I own a contracting/ roofing company, never wore a mask, and carried on my business with some different approaches such as emailing contracts, accommodating folks who were uncomfortable by doing zoom calls, etc.
If businesses didn’t want me in their stores without a mask, I obliged. It was very rare.
I do empathize with the folks like Brian who have struggled throughout this but I think the overreaction by unelected and elected people exacerbated this.
Be a grown up and put on a mask. Don't force some kid working to tell you to do it or get out. What the hell is the matter with you?
First, no kid has had to do that. Second, mask efficacy is highly questionable. Third, I’m being plenty grown up exercising my right to choose after doing enough research to know the survival rate of this thing is 99+.
Fourth, feel free to keep wearing them.
If you have done your research, you know that more than 2 of out of 1000 people have died of Covid in ten states. All of these states are still seeing positive cases which means they are not particularly close to herd immunity. That suggests well less than 50% of the population has gotten covid. As you state that implies a survival rate of over 99%. Probably in the neighborhood of 99.5%. I think you mean that implies it is not that big a deal. If everyone in the US got it, that would mean over 1.6 million deaths.
There is very little science that suggests that masks do not reduce spread. Exercising your right to be an ass is not a sign of being grown up.
net out your numbers those over 75 with one or more comorbidities. i wonder how many were roofers? serious virus, but we know whose vulnerable and have for months. keep them off of mannix's roofing jobs and they should be okay, don't you think?
did you read the WSJ article out of johns hopkins that was posted earlier this week? extremely positive, fact-based report.
and this was posted by another mgoblogger yesterday, and it sure seems to square with observed reality: The coronavirus is technically a cold virus. COVID-19 is the eleventh coronavirus found in humans. We know a lot about the coronavirus family. According to the WHO, 50% of the COVID-19 deaths last spring were people over 80 and 50% had 3 or more co-morbidities. 5-year old children are 9 times more likely to die from the seasonal flu than from COVID-19 according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins. As stated by the CDC, mask recommendations are based on mannequins and puff tests while data based on actual viral transmission and humans is inconclusive. No one with the recommended level of vitamin D has died of COVID-19. 4 of 5 people that get the virus and recover had insufficient levels of vitamin D before treatment.
now with the vaccine for those who need it, and contrasting that with sky-rocketing suicides, depression, anxiety, drug overdoses, child abuse, etc, and maybe we need to get back to normal. you might be surprised how much of the country has to one degree or another despite all the worrying, and no calamity has occurred. and that's, in effect, tens of millions of test cases.
I could care less what he does in his roofing jobs, it is just common courtesy to wear a mask in an enclosed location where the public is (e.g. a store). It is not being an adult to take simple, reasonable precautions to not expose other people to a virus that kills somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 of every 1000 people who get it. I have no problem with people working, going to stores etc, just be friggin responsible and wear a mask. We are not talking about exposing 5 year olds, we are talking about people who are trying to do their jobs, many of whom may have comorbitities and many who are in fact not yet eligible for vaccines. By the way, in the neighborhood of 2000 people continue to die every day in the US from Covid. If two passenger planes crashed and 600 people died, that would probably be considered a calamity. Somehow 3 times that number every day isn’t worth the simple precaution of wearing a mask. Sorry if I have little respect for someone who cares so little about their fellow humans that they are not only unwilling to take simple precautions, but are in fact proud of themselves for not taking those precautions.
This is what Michigan Medicine has to say about masks.
The science is clear: mask wearing saves lives. Michigan Medicine has joined nearly 100 health systems nationwide to encourage communities to keep up the fight against the spread of COVID-19, and #MaskUp.
I am going to trust their advice over an often self described simple organic farmer and a roofer.
The political science says to wear a mask. CDC position is based on puff tests and mannequins which is not really medical or biological science. I get tired of people "saying" that a mask saves live without any evidence. Contagion and death rates are similar regardless mask wearing as you can compare states and countries to do and don't wear masks. Never before 2020 has the medical community suggested that healthy people should wear a mask.
Feeling is not thinking
Yes - all of the political scientists at Michigan Medical.
Some more science for you:
“Conclusion
Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.
The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34).”
Reviews are opinions. As an engineer, I look to experiments and data.
You do understand that a scientific review paper actually looks at many studies of data and summarizes them. It is not an opinion. It is a review of other studies. For instance:
Leffler et al. (29) used a multiple regression approach, including a range of policy interventions and country and population characteristics, to infer the relationship between mask use and SARS-CoV-2 transmission. They found that transmission was 7.5 times higher in countries that did not have a mask mandate or universal mask use, a result similar to that found in an analogous study of fewer countries (30).
They choose the data they review. That is the point. Their conclusion is based on the data they choose to review. The data selected reflects their opinion. Mannequins and puff tests are not people and viruses. One could publish a paper that analyzes one game of basketball and draw a conclusion that the winner of that game is the greatest team of all time. Or one could look at the first 20 years of Super Bowl outcomes and conclude that if the AFC won the stock market would go down. Some people are of the opinion that we should NOT look at South Dakota, Florida, Sweden, or Germany for policy evidence. I choose to look at as much evidence as I can find.
Did you even look at the paper, or did you make assumptions? It looks well beyond information from puff tests. You are doing the exact same thing that you accuse the authors of doing.
If we look at the 10 states with the highest death per capita in the US, four of them are in the top six in terms of population density (New Jersey, New York, Connected and Massachusetts. Do you think that population density might have just a little bit to do with the extent to which they were hit by covid? Also, when the virus hit hardest matters. We had more treatments at our disposal when many other states got hit hard, that should lead to lower mortality.
It is fascinating that you would cite South Dakota as evidence that masks don’t work. Despite being 19th in population density and not being hard hit until the summer, they are 8th in deaths per capita. That hardly strikes me as evidence that masks don’t work. Sweden also doesn’t seem like an incredibly good example. Nearly 1300 deaths per capita. It’s nearest neighbors, Norway (116) and Finland (138). Germany also seems like an interesting example. They used masks. https://www.pnas.org/content/117/51/32293 They also had an early and aggressive testing program.
Once again, people who actually study this stuff for a living at most major medical institutions seem to think masks work. I am gonna trust them over you, especially since masks are an incredibly low cost, low risk mitigation measure.
You say over 80 as if those people are dispensable. Who cares if the old people die 10 or even 20 years before they would have otherwise, right?
Wearing masks slows the spread of this disease. You dismiss "mannequins and puff tests" as if science is never done in a lab. Science is awesome when it's developing cell phones or tractors or new textiles or literally anything that makes modern life possible, but as soon as it suggests wearing a mask when you go to a grocery store it's "mannequins and puff tests."
hardly dispensable. but as you may be reading in the news, those folks were killed in large part by certain governors ordering covid patients into elder-care homes. one of them probably has a good chance to be indicted. so those are intentional, probably criminal acts that masks won't/didn't save.
and the disease has spread, period end of story. it won't and cannot be stopped, only slowed. the choices now are get vaccinated, stay inside, and/or get yourself an N95 mask which the euphemistic 'you' have had a year to acquire. so unproven 'science' in the face of actual data that shows virtually no difference between the masks and no mask states (actually, isn't better for some/all of no-mask states?) seems like the theory is flawed.
and if the euphemistic 'you' are still scared then stay home and ask your neighbors, people like me, to deliver your groceries because i'll do it in a nano-second.
Or just don’t be an ass and wear a mask. It is such a simple little thing you can do for your neighbors. It is so hard to see why you are so scared of it. You call everybody else scared, yet the idea of showing compassion for others with such a little measure seems to cause you so much fear.
Being scared doesn't make me right.
'scared' is the virulent mask types who, in the face of a year of data that proves the mask theory is wrong, cling desperately to the 'must wear a mask everywhere' theory out of fear or an attempt to feel important. but let me nuance that a little: one of my employees has health issues such that they (and i) would be greatly concerned about them getting covid. i gladly wear a mask around that person when i'm in their work area and i will as long as that employee prefers that.
but if i'm in a giant store, with 20' high ceilings keeping my distance and breezing down the aisles (and i'm healthy) i am no danger to anyone nor am i afraid of their possible danger to me. and i doubt you can show me any data that says otherwise.
at this point wearing a mask in most circumstances is some combination of fear, virtue signaling, and desire to control others. this large part of the state/country you are horrified about aren't 'scared' of wearing a mask: it is a silly exercise, a pain, and candidly, when i see people wearing masks it makes me think they are hostages. it might freak you out about what's going on up here and in other places, but understand that it has been that way for months with virtually no ill effects.
You keep citing all of this data saying that the mask theory is wrong yet:
1. There are many lab based studies suggesting that masks are in fact quite effective at reducing covid transmission.
2. There are many real world studies suggesting that masks are effective in reducing covid transmission (aldeit less effective then lab based studies suggest),
3. You can find a smaller number of studies that suggest masks are of limited or no use in reducing covid transmission.
4. Many highly respected medical institutions (I have already cited Michigan in a post above, Hopkins and Harvard look at all of this evidence and conclude that masks are in fact effective. I did not do an exhaustive search but I could not find a major, respected medical institution that does not say this in the searching I did do.
All of these assertions are easily verifiable with a little googling. I think this excerpt from a Harvard Medical blog summarizes it well.
“No single study is perfect or definitive; in fact, such studies would be impossible to perform. But there is a lot going for mask-wearing, and little or no evidence that wearing a mask causes harm. So, if you’re a person who wants to avoid COVID-19, cares about the health of others, and endorses rational, evidence-based decision-making, choosing to wear a mask should be an easy call.” And “The best available evidence shows that we should all be wearing masks, because doing so will reduce spread of infection and save lives. It’s much harder to make a compelling case against wearing masks.”
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/masks-save-lives-heres-what-you-need-to-know-2020111921466
With regards to your challenge regarding retail workers in stores with 20 foot ceilings, I grant you, I could not find a study focused on that specific fact pattern, I did however find this:
”Grocery store employees are likely to be at heightened risk of COVID-19 infection, with those in customer-facing roles 5 times as likely to test positive as their colleagues in other positions, suggests the first study of its kind, published in the journal Occupational & Environmental Medicine.”
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201029191116.htm
I am well aware that I am not going to change your mind. I do however think it is important that people who read your continued assertions that “unproven 'science' in the face of actual data that shows virtually no difference between the masks and no mask states (actually, isn't better for some/all of no-mask states?) seems like the theory is flawed.” understand that it is based on a very selective reading of the actual science and that many much more qualified people than you (and I) have come to the opposite conclusion that you have.
first, i appreciate the civility of our exchange. that is how rational discussions should take place and people really can have thoughtful interaction on this topic. second, everyone on the planet is going to test positive for covid unless they die first or get a vaccine which is now widely available- positive tests are a completely false metric. studies discussing reducing the spread are, in effect, a deception. we have never and will never stop the spread of a cold virus in the sense that while we can change the shape of the area under the curve (slow the transmission) we cannot change the area under the curve. the metrics that are important is at-risk folks prior to vaccination and hospital capacity. none of that is impacted by healthy people testing positive and we have no hospitals in our country that i'm aware of that are even close to overrun.
third, the actual non-theoretical facts are pretty plain: unmasked states have fared no worse and in many places better than the hard-core mask states. so the theories about what we should or might do about masks, unless you've got some other actual data, seem to have been nice thoughts but lacking in actual proven substance. i equate it to game-planning an RPO offense against a theoretical 4-2-5 or a 4-3 under - we plan all we want with bright and insightful theories, but how did it actually work. we have a year of actual proof now.
Lets go through this point by point:
1. The vaccine is widely available - demonstrably not true, at least not everywhere. I have multiple congenital health issues that put me in the higher risk category, but I am not in the hospital and I am under 65, so in my state, I can not get the vaccine. In the next 4 to 8 weeks I am hopeful that your assertion that any higher risk individual who wants it will have been able to get the vaccine will be true, but it is not the case today. I am blessed to have a job that allows me to work from home, many people who are high risk (or have family members that are high risk) who are in a similar position to me with regards to vaccine availability are not so lucky. They have to go to work to support their families and many of them have no option but to work in places where customers don’t care about them and don’t wear masks. While they can reduce their risk with masks, you can further reduce it by wearing a mask. These are the people who I think we should all be wearing masks for. You often have absolutely no idea what the health condition of a person you meet in a store is. You similarly often have no idea about the health conditions of their family. These people are absolutely potentially impacted by otherwise healthy people with asymptomatic cases of covid whether they test positive or not. There is evidence that wearing a mask will reduce this risk for those people.
2. With regards to your discussion about area under the curve, as you note, the whole point of a vaccine is to reduce the number of people under the curve. By preventing covid cases today in people who will be vaccinated tomorrow, you reduce the area under the curve.
3. I agree that at this point overwhelmed hospitals are not a problem.
4. With regards to your statement: “the actual non-theoretical facts are pretty plain: unmasked states have fared no worse and in many places better than the hard-core mask states. so the theories about what we should or might do about masks, unless you've got some other actual data, seem to have been nice thoughts but lacking in actual proven substance.” - I have addressed this in every post before this one. As I noted, many/most well regarded medical organizations disagree with you. They base this on looking at the actual data. Real world, large scale epidemiological studies are very hard. There are many factors that go into spread and death related to covid. These include: population density, when the worst of covid hit, mitigation measures (including both mask wearing, treatment of elderly patients who can’t fit in overflowing hospitals) and more. These confounding factors are what make it so hard to make the assertion that you diid. As I have noted, you can find scientific studies and doctors who will agree with you. I believe based on my reading that there are many more that would agree with me (and I have cited a number of those in previous posts in this thread).
5. It is unclear to me why you feel that mask wearing is such a burden. You explain: “at this point wearing a mask in most circumstances is some combination of fear, virtue signaling, and desire to control others.” I don’t think that listening to the medical community when the majority of them say that mask wearing can slow the spread and is easy to do is any of those things. In fact, not mask wearing seems to be all of those things. It seems to be saying to people who work in the customer facing service industry, my convenience is more important than the health of you and your family.
I will reiterate that I will continue to respond to your assertions that seem to disagree with much of the scientific evidence not to change your mind, but to help others see that your assertions are just that and they are not well based in science. I also find it offensive that you continue to assert that I am scared because of my views. I believe they are rational, well informed views based on researching the topic (including in response to points you bring up) and that my researching is based on a strong scientific background grounded in both a mechanical engineering degree and a 30 year career working on environmental issues that includes overseeing very large projects where environmental risk assessment and epidemiological evidence played important roles.
Do you consider this useful data? If not, why not? If so, what do you think about it?
Here is the same article with more detail:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/07/418181/one-more-reason-wear-mask-youll-get-less-sick-covid-19
Summarizing the main idea: more viral load leads to worse infection. So reducing viral load (by wearing masks) will reduce infection (i.e. symptoms). So if everyone masks up, it will still spread, but people will get a lot less sick (i.e. mostly asymptomatic cases).
Summarizing the data:
Hamster study - blowing air from infected hamsters to non-infected, with and without masks "filtering" the air. With mask in place, fewer hamsters caught the disease, and those that did showed milder symptoms.
Cruise ship data: Diamond princess, ~600 test positive, 18% asymptomatic, Argentinian (Australian?) cruise ship, ~128 test positive, 81% asymptomatic (b/c on the Argentinian line all were given N95 masks to wear when the first person got sick, but not so on Diamond).
Meat packing data (crowded, long hours, etc.) - (i) Oregon seafood, 128 test positive, 95% asymptomatic, (ii) Tyson Chicken, 481 test positive, 95% asymptomatic. Both places, all workers required to wear N95 while at work.
Article conclusion - with N95 masking, covid-19 still spreads, but most cases are now asymptomatic.
First of all, thank you guys for keeping the discussion as civil as possible. I appreciate it.
I'll add a couple things here but otherwise am tired of going over and over and over again the same points with anyone DEEPLY entrenched in stubbornness and/or determination to stand your own ground or whatever you may wish to call it. Some are capable of changing their minds and hearts when it hits home, others not so much.
My dear son-in-law is a prime example. He went along with wearing a mask on the job because his employer mandated it, but I also knew he wouldn't likely have done so otherwise. Because I dearly love him and my daughter, I for the most part bit my tongue in their presence and when together late last summer with his entire side of the family for a wedding (I wore a mask most of the time but so very many didn't). My son-in-laws dad is a fun & wonderful man but very anti-mask... until very recently two of his closest friends developed extremely severe cases of covid-19 (last I knew one is still on a ventilator and might not pull through). And now? He and his wife and my son-in-law sing a much different tune. And my daughter has now spoken freely that she tried to convince them of the merits of masking, social distancing, etc. a looonng time ago but they wanted none of it. Thank the Lord that my SIL's 90ish-aged Grandma is still around and may soon be rewarded with more Great-Grandkids!
As for "patriotic" anti-mask fervor, I'll say the following as a relative of many who fought in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and some of the various fronts in the Middle East: whatever happened to the concept of sacrifice for your country, for your neighbor, the idea of civic duty to and for one another?
And WTF would have happened to our country if not for those same concepts of sacrifice and civic duty when faced with the evil fascist forces we helped defeat in WW2?
I took those grade school civics lessons to heart as a child. I sometimes joined my WW1 Veteran Grandpa and my Grandma at their American Legion gatherings (Grandpa was one of the founders of that particular legion post and Gramma was head of their Ladies Auxiliary for a time). I learned thru talking with Gramps of the life experiences he survived, not just on the German and French battlefields, but also on the family farm as the youngest of 14 children, 7 of whom perished before he was even born, due to epidemics of diphtheria and the flu in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I would have probably served myself if the vietnam draft hadn't ended while I was a high school upperclassman.
So I think I recognize real patriotism when I see it. Not saying I have the only clear angle on what constitutes patriotism, but one thing in my mind that certainly doesn't is self-centered ignorance of the needs of my fellow Americans for safety from my own possible ignorance.
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I leave the discussion now, but first this video:
What It’s Like to Lose Someone to Covid-19? https://nyti.ms/3rn3QVv
I appreciate that you think the discourse is civil. I personally find it highly irresponsible for a poster, no matter how widely respected he is (and with good reason) on things sports related, to continually post with zero supporting evidence, claims that go against the advice of most if not all major respected medical institutions in the country,
Like I said, to clarify a bit, "as civil as possible".
That is absolutely not by any means an endorsement of a lot of the things I know you yourself are opposed to; rather, it is my choice to try to facilitate civil discourse when the discussion heads down a path I'd rather not have to deal with at all.
BTW, I edited in a few more tidbits I failed to cover on my first draft. For something I initially was hoping to limit to about 4-5 paragraphs, I ended up much more fired-up than originally intended.
One last thing, I worked in retail most of my career (hourly and management both) before retiring several months ahead of schedule because of the danger. I have friends still there, friends who have been forced to continue, friends I pray for the safety of. I saw the studies you or someone else referred to and it was a sizable factor in my decision to get out.
Yes, the danger faced by essential workers IS real.