OT: Gary Andersen left WI due to WI's academic standards
Interesting article about Gary Andersen leaving Wisconsin because of their high academic standards. He basically couldn't get the players he wanted into school. Not sure how he didn't know this going in but sounds like WI should be glad he's gone.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24982746/wi…
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:10 AM ^
"A Fox Sports report stated Wisconsin requires 17 high-school units for admission. That's higher than Ohio State, Nebraska (16) Oregon State (15) and Michigan State (14), according to the report."
Where's Michigan on this spectrum? Do we require 3 language credits like Wisco for student-athletes?
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:24 AM ^
I just googled "high-school units" it sounds like you get 1 for 1 year of one class. so my high school for example, i would have gotten 7 a year. That's 28 to graduate. What kind of high schools are letting kids graduate with HALF THAT MANY UNITS? EDIT: ok, I did more reading, it sounds like there are minimums within each subject, so they don't care if you took art ot P.E. ot 4 years of language, they only care about specific units from specific areas.
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:24 AM ^
"At Wisconsin, 13 high school credits must be considered "core college preparatory" classes (four years of English, three years of math, three years of natural science and three years of social science). However, unlike other institutions, Wisconsin also requires an additional four electives, which can include foreign language, fine arts, computer science or other academic areas. That last addition very well could be the difference between landing some talented prospects with marginal coursework."
"Oregon State, meanwhile, requires 15 units of academic courses for admission. Like Wisconsin, the same 13 core credits are needed, but only two additional credits for a foreign language are necessary."
Wouldn't most high schoolers hit this bare minimum? 3 foreign language credits might be the hardest part out of all of this...
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:35 AM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:08 AM ^
it is easy to do at even decent high schools, but at some, you need to plan this out from the time you are a freshman
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:18 AM ^
This is stupid. Basically you need to take English, Math, Social Studies, and Science for all 4 years of High School (I can't believe you can graduate without this).
Core:
4 English + 3 Math + 3 Social Science + 3 Natural Science = 13
Additional (need 4):
1 Math + 1 Social Science + 1 Natural Science = 3. So, you need 1 extra credit (Foreign Language, Fine Art, Computer Science, Other Academic). How hard is this?
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:34 AM ^
So far life is not miserable.....
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:46 AM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:53 AM ^
Five, grandpa.
I love making fun of people about their eyesight.
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:39 PM ^
The fifth mark is a period.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:54 AM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 11:13 AM ^
only taken 3 years of math...
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:27 AM ^
I went to high school in Florida. We had 4 units a year. Requirements to graduate were 4 English, 3 or 4 math, 3 science, 1 or 2 social studies, 1 PE. I took an extra science course in 10th grade, and all I needed to graduate after 11th was one English course, which I took the summer before.
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:33 AM ^
Okay. So 4 years of taking english, math, and a science course. These classes are generally 40-45 minutes apiece. That's 2 hours of class a day for 4 years and you're already 2 units away from being accepted into Michigan St.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:19 AM ^
Agree with all this. Even 17 "units" in four years should not be a barrier for anyone. Does anyone expect not to take four years of math, english, or some type of science?
I guess maybe some students that are not looking to, "play school," but it seems the bar to clear here is fairly low and we seem to have a fairly low standard of expectations for our kids. How does a university hold itself up as an academic standard bearer when they are essentially saying you can average less than 5 hours of class a day and still get into a B1G university?
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:42 AM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:01 PM ^
Yes, yes! A thousand times 'this.' Andersen left Wisconsin because they weren't admitting his tech ed recruits. I'm glad Oregon State takes a more lenient stance on admitting tailors as athletic recruits and frankly, I hope more schools follow suit.
January 22nd, 2015 at 5:42 PM ^
+1 for 'follow suit'
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:23 PM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:08 AM ^
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January 22nd, 2015 at 10:07 AM ^
http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/college-preparati…
Quick synopsis for LSA:
English: 4 units
Foreign Lang.: 2 units
Math: 3 units
Science: 3 units
Social Science: 3 units
Other: 5 units
20 total with 15 being considered core classes
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:13 AM ^
I guess I don't see it that way. When It is easier to get into Wisconsin as a regular student, than it is as an athlete, who can blame him for wanting to leave. Wisconsin gave him his first big break, and he jumped at it. Yes, he should have known what he was getting into, but just like the lineman (his name escapes me) who was in and then not in, it must be a frustrating situation.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:44 AM ^
The OP's article references a CNN piece (which Michigan didn't respond to):
What is interesting is the differential in ACT and SAT scores between players and the student body. Michigan's average SAT and ACT is below (considerably higher than Wisconsin's):
Sorry for the formatting.
ACT 30-33
mid 50th % range
- English: 30-35
- Math: 29-34
- Science: 28-34
- Eng/Writing: 28-32
- Reading: 30-34
SAT 2040-2260
mid 50th % range
- Critical reading: 650-750
- Math: 690-770
- Writing: 670-770
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/01/us/college-scores/index.html
According to several academic experts, the threshold for being college literate is a score of 400 on the SAT or 16 on the ACT.
Wisconsin provided CNN with 143 scores of football players admitted between 2007 and 2012.
Only two scored below the threshold on both the ACT reading and English tests, and only one scored below 400 on the SAT reading test.
That's 2%.
The average of the ACT scores provided to CNN was 23, and according to Collegedata.com, the average freshmen admitted to Wisconsin-Madison scores between a 26 and 30 on the ACT composite.
The average of the SAT scores provided to CNN was 486, and according to Collegedata.com, the average freshmen admitted to Wisconsin-Madison scores 593 on the SAT critical reading test.
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:14 AM ^
2. Guy wanted to use juco players at Wisconsin. That's not gonna happen there any more than at Michigan.
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:30 AM ^
To the first point, isn't that what that OL recruit's dad said was the reason for the son's decommitment from Wisconsin? That they were told, "get these grades and you won't have any problems," and then the admissions office is saying he might not be admitted even though he hit those benchmarks.
Didn't realize Wisconsin also didn't generally take JUCO transfers. Is that common across the Big10?
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:27 AM ^
Good move for Wisconsin. What we don't need are more coaches who de-emphasize academics.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:09 AM ^
then would you support a system wherein all student athletes have to gain admission to the school like any other student? Once they're in the AD can offer them a scholarship.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:39 AM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:21 AM ^
to the post I responded to, but I see this all the time here. People go on and on about student athletes and emphasizing academics. I'm saying, if academics are that important to you, put your money where your mouth is. If a regular kid needs a 3.8 and a 30+ ACT to get in, then why does the athlete not have to meet those same requirements?
/playing devil's advocate
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:37 AM ^
Can't rise to the challenge huh? Kudos to all big ten coaches.
Our assistants in big ten are better than Gary. It's not always about football it's about the kids and education first.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:13 AM ^
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January 22nd, 2015 at 8:42 AM ^
I love college football, but don't like the part where it seems to be all about football and little about college. This article is certainly not a great reflection on Anderson if he thought Wisconsin's standards were too tough. Sounds like him and Cardale would get along great.
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:12 AM ^
We all make fun of Cardale Jones for that infamous tweet, but that's kind of how it is. How often do big time recruits say they want to find a school with great academics, but then commit to LSU?
We would all love and adore Iman Marshall if he picked Michigan, but if you read the Sam Webb article from the board yesterday, his Dad is quoted as saying something like, "Our primary focus is getting Iman to the NFL."
I know here at Michigan the revenue athletes don't deal with half the academic rigor of the rest of the student body. Probably because they have to dedicate so many hours to their sport. It may not be right, but the University/CFB have already decided that football is more important.
tl;dr : Athletes play mostly football, play far less school.
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:33 AM ^
January 22nd, 2015 at 8:45 AM ^
I don't understand all the Juco hate. Michigan probably has 700-1000ish Juco kids enrolled at any given time, so why not accept them for the FB team?
If we're being honest, a lot of the student athletes would not have gotten into Michigan (or Wisconsin) as regular students. So you're already compromising academic standards.
I'm really of two minds about this. Part of me likes the IVY model where a student athlete has to meet about the same admissions standards as any other student. The other part likes a winning football team. I suppose Michigan strikes a pretty good balance. Better than most other D1 schools anyway.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:16 AM ^
Yeah I don't get it either. We let students who go to Community College transfer to Michigan. Why can't we allow JUCO players to transfer for athletics?
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:32 AM ^
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January 22nd, 2015 at 10:02 AM ^
I've never heard this before. So a juco kid would have to declare a major and take classes towards that degree, while still in community college, in order to be eligible to play at Michigan once he has transferred?
Is this a Michigan thing, a B1G thing, or an NCAA thing? Sounds like a Michigan thing.
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:44 AM ^
From the Division I handbook:
14.4.1 Progress-Toward-Degree Requirements. To be eligible to represent an institution in intercollegiate athletics competition, a student-athlete shall maintain progress toward a baccalaureate or equivalent degree at that institution as determined by the regulations of that institution subject to controlling legislation of the conference(s) or similar association of which the institution is a member and applicable NCAA legislation.
It goes on to list what is considered progress in the eyes of the NCAA in terms of credit hour requirements, but only for eligibility for competition. Much of the final word on the matter beyond that sits with the member institution. As for JUCOs, it is entirely possible, it seems, at a school like Wisconsin - and Michigan too - that you get in and find that the gap between transferred credits and fulfilling credit hour requirements makes maintaining eligibility a hassle, to say the least, if not impractical.
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:52 AM ^
it's why I graduated with 182 credit hours for two AB degrees. :)
I transferred in from GVSU after four full semesters. Nearly all of my credits transferred in at M, but most of them did not "count" toward my degree programs, they were elective credits. Therefore, I spent 3.5 years at Michigan and after 5.5 total years of college, I have two equally awesome undergraduate degrees (Comm Studies & History).
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:52 AM ^
I don't understand what you mean that a non-athlete JUCO isn't on track for 4-year degree when starting at UM. I've had friends who transfered from Delta CC and WCC (after two years) and graduated in 4 years, and I don't recall them having to do anything special (beyond passing 60 credits worth of classes their junior and senior years, like normal).
Do you have a link that shows how this does or doesn't work?
January 23rd, 2015 at 3:56 AM ^
LS&A General studies graduation checklist
Equivalency - pick your 2 yr. school (with a football program) and build a path
http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/transfer-students/transfer-credit
It's work...especially when you consider that not all classes are offered when you need them.
January 23rd, 2015 at 3:13 PM ^
Michigan is that much different from Illinois.
Essentially, it is possible, given the grades, that a student could transfer from a community college to the University of Illinois and have all of their credits accepted if they follow certain guidelines. Thing is, if you diverge from those guidelines by even one iota then U of I (and that goes for UIC and pretty much every other public and private school in Illinois but Northwestern and U of C) can go in and cherry-pick the classes that they will grant transfer credit for.
Which means that if you go to a juco, you have to plan your classload accordingly.
I considered applying to Michigan (a life-long dream!) as a JUCO from Illinois and I'm pretty certain that I would have been admitted (perhaps not with all of the credits, though). The out-of-state tuition fees scared me off, though.
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:15 AM ^
is very picky about what JC they take students from for the general srudent body. They have a few feaders like WCC. My uninformed guess is that not many or non of these feeder schools are powerhouse JC football programs.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:18 AM ^
3.5% of the undergrad population. That same percentage applied to 85 scholarships would work out to 3 players.
2) I recall reading on this board that a lot of Michigan's JUCOs come from a school which has a relationship with Michigan, the courses transfer,etc.
3) There was a post on the board in the last week or so that shared an article on a guy who helped JUCOs get eligible for 4 year programs. He took advantage of schools with online courses, did the work/took the tests for the kids, etc. Any decent admissions office would be aware of these "credit mills" (can't call them diploma mills) and would be unlikely to accept their credits when a student - ANY student - wanted to transfer.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:37 AM ^
players can make a big difference, especially if one is a QB.
I participated in the thread referenced in your 2nd paragraph. My HS age daughter has been taking classes at OCC in order to save dad a few bucks when she goes to Michigan in a couple years. I can say for sure that Michigan is very strict (too strict IMO) when it comes to transfer credits.
I know that you used to be able to transfer into Michigan with up to 55 credit hours from other schools. If tuition is going to keep increasing as much as it has been, they're really going to need to lighten up on their transfer credit policies.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:30 AM ^
Perhaps I'm overreading your point. There is no UM AD doesn't allow JUCOs. If there are 700-1000 JUCO transfers in the undergrad population, then those students used their JUCO years to take the right classes in the right amount. I thought the problem was that most athletes aren't able to do this (or choose not to). If they do, and can qualify...then UM FB can and will take them. It just isn't common.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:40 AM ^
as referenced in the post above yours, is that Michigan doesn't like to accept transfer credits from out of state juco's. I can understand why, but I don't necessarily agree with it.