OT - Could the 'D' lose a pro sports team?
Does anyone get the feeling (even though there hasn't been word one regarding it) that pretty soon Detroit will not be able to support 4 professional sports franchises? There are many bigger cities and areas that don't have all 4 teams. I just see the attendance at Ford Field, Comerica Park, The Palace, and The Joe, look worse and worse game after game, season after season. Along with the wretched economy here in SE Michigan, and I just get the feeling that sooner rather than later someone is going to sell and that new owner might pack up and leave. My bet is on the Pistons leaving at some point. I don't think the wife of the late Mr.D has much interest in owning an NBA team, just my thoughts. Anybody else?
December 12th, 2009 at 12:43 PM ^
I really don't think there is a chance Detroit loses a team. Because the ownership would have to move them. The Red Wings won't move. The Tigers won't move. The Pistons won't move. The Lions won't move because Ford Field is to new, they haven't gotten enough usage out of it.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:44 PM ^
Has been pretty damn good until this year.
With the economy picking up (fingers crossed), I can't see an attendance lag serious enough for an owner to try to move the team (especially as long as Mr. D. owns it).
December 12th, 2009 at 12:54 PM ^
The Pistons, hopefully, are here to stay... but, alas, Mr. D. has passed away.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:35 PM ^
I meant MRS. Davidson. She seems (from what I have heard) to share her husband's affinity for the region, and isn't looking to make a quick buck by selling.
But I could be wrong.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:50 PM ^
The Shock moved a little while ago.....does that count?
December 12th, 2009 at 12:55 PM ^
No. In fact the sale/relocation of the Shock eliminates a cash drain on the Pistons organization and increases the likelihood the Pistons are going to stay.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:01 PM ^
Who are the Shock?
/s
December 12th, 2009 at 3:52 PM ^
3 time WNBA champions while in Detroit. moved to Tulsa
December 12th, 2009 at 5:05 PM ^
Would you rather find $5 on the ground or have your local WNBA team win 3 championships. In a stunning vote in greater DETROIT, 91% turnout, where 95% of the vote would rather have $5, and the other 5% willing to settle for $5 or even just $1.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:32 PM ^
Mmm, Bill Simmons.
Ask most human beings if they'd rather have five dollars than have any local sports team win a championship. You may find this depressing.
The better question is whether you would pay $5 to never see the WNBA again.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:54 PM ^
i beg to differ about the wings attendance. They have been the only detroit sport team to consistently put butts in their seats. Pistons are pretty bad. they dont even look like their 1/3 sold out. Lions...i have no idea. Tigers do a pretty good job at times
December 12th, 2009 at 12:57 PM ^
Uh, the Pistons are coming off a stretch of like five consecutive seasons in which they led the NBA in attendance.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:09 PM ^
And through 11 games they are averaging 80%. Echoing what was said above, they had a 200+ streak of games sold out that ended last year.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:54 PM ^
The Detroit TV market has 5.4 million people (not counting Windsor and its 400,000 people). That's plenty big enough. As for attendance, economy and on-field performance are factors here, just like everywhere else.
The Pistons are about the last team I'd expect to leave. The Palace is a gigantic moneymaker.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:25 PM ^
You really could count the whole state of Michigan and say that Detroit sports teams have almost a 10 million TV market!
December 14th, 2009 at 1:23 PM ^
count if the tigers, wings and pistons were all still on channel 50. the people in windsor don't get FSN detroit with their cable packages, and the only way they could is to have a dish(american or canadian).
December 12th, 2009 at 12:55 PM ^
I understand what you are saying but I just don't see it happening. The Tigers and Redwings have too much history in Detroit to move them. The Pistons seem to be doing fine. And like someone else said Ford Field is so new that I don't see the Lions getting moved anytime soon. Not to mention Detroit is still a very large media market isn't it?
December 12th, 2009 at 1:30 PM ^
Water Cooler Guy 1: "Did you see the headlines? The Lions are moving to our town!"
Water Cooler Guy 2: "The Lions? My prayers have been answered!"
December 12th, 2009 at 2:13 PM ^
Buffalo.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:21 PM ^
You do realize that Buffalo is worse off economically than Detroit, right? They're not moving games to Toronto for the fun of it, the city is dying.
December 12th, 2009 at 9:29 PM ^
The economy is horrible, yet the Bills continue to sell out their games unlike the Lions. Which says even more about Buffalo as a sports town in my opinion.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:16 PM ^
The Bills typically only sell out 4-5 games a season. And they perform at a level far higher than the Lions
December 13th, 2009 at 8:33 PM ^
Haha, the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in as many years as the Lions. So I don't know how you can say the Bills " perform at a level far higher than the Lions".
And please don't tell me 5-11 seasons for the Bills are far better than 2-14 seasons for the Lions. There is not much difference when neither team has been to the playoffs this decade.
And the Bills typically sell out more than 4-5 games a season. They have sold out every game this season, one in which their coach has been fired and there is little hope of anything positive. I don't know where to find the exact numbers, but I would guess the Bills have averaged more than 6 (probably a lot closer to 7)sell outs per year in the last decade (again: one in which they have not made the playoffs).
December 14th, 2009 at 1:26 PM ^
Cool story, bro.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:13 PM ^
Judging by your amount of points, I'm guessing people think you are a solid, valuable poster. But apparently that is a gigantic fallacy.
Haha, what a pathetic response. I mean, that was so thought provoking, way to contribute to the board!
You were wrong, talking about shit you shouldn't be because you actually have no idea what you're talking about, and then refuse to admit it so instead reply with a sarcastic remark.
I honestly don't really give a shit about this one instance, I'm more concerned that you are fooling others into thinking you are a good poster.
I come on here to read the likes of Brian, Tim, TomVH, the Other Brian, Magnus...I'm just a little worried that some people would put you into that same category, which may not be something you desire, but a fact nonetheless.
So maybe you should spend a little less time on this board collecting your one point every time you make a post because by your last few posts in this thread I am guessing that is how you have accumulated the majority of your points.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:32 PM ^
I would argue that all Detroit teams have too deep of a history to be relocated. The Tigers have been in "The D" since 1894 and are one of the Original Eight AL franchises and have four rings. The Wings are an Original Six team and were founded in 1926, plus have 11 Cups. The Pistons joined the NBA in 1948 and have three NBA championships. Then the Lions have been in the NFL since 1934 and have four championships over their history.
All four teams have such a deep history i think any owner would never dare moving any of these teams. The citizens and fans of Detroit would fight to keep these teams here. When your city's newest team is over 50 years old, i think the teams are safe unless some major or tragic happens.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:55 PM ^
Looks like either the Vipers or the Rockers will be gone soon.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:01 PM ^
I loved the Vipers when I was younger. I think I must have gone to at least 20 of those games.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:24 PM ^
The Rockers were fun. Watching Andy Chapman run around the Joe was kind of extremely awesome.
And don't get me started on the Vipers and my anger at Mr. D for not renaming what was then 2 Championship Drive for their Turner Cup season.
December 13th, 2009 at 10:19 AM ^
Roooockers! IIISSSS! Soccerrrrrrrrr!
December 12th, 2009 at 12:55 PM ^
the pro football team moved away years ago!
rim shot
HEY YO!
i'll be at the laff shak all next week
December 12th, 2009 at 12:57 PM ^
I think you'll see one of the Detroit daily newspapers fall before a sports team. Honestly, how can the Detroit area support 2 newspapers at this point?
December 12th, 2009 at 1:03 PM ^
There are two newspapers in Detroit? I only know of the Detroit News.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:38 PM ^
another local paper. But it's usually used to prop up uneven table legs, as kindling for fires, and as packing filler for moving companies.
It may have other uses, but I have yet to find them.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:37 PM ^
My kids have a pet rabbit. I was going use the Freep to line its cage. But, I kinda like that rabbit and couldn't do it to him.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:00 PM ^
As long as Illitch owns them, those two are safe. Same with the Fords, which is the only argument for keeping them as owners. Not sure now that Davidson has passed away, but I imagine if it's his family they're pretty connected to the area.
So seems doubtful.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:10 PM ^
The fact that the Davidsons own a controlling interest in the Palace makes a sale and move of the team unlikely
December 12th, 2009 at 1:08 PM ^
Mr. Davidson was a great man, and the single largest disrespectful act that could ever (hopefully never) occur is moving the Pistons. He was a great leader, philanthropist, businessman and I hope his legacy forever lives on with the Pistons competing for championships in Detroit for years to come.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:49 PM ^
(written while cooped up in a car, with my girl, for over 2 hours while heading to her parents' for xmas, and doing my best to avoid uncomfortable conversation. God help me. . .)
Yes, attendance is dwindling--but the Detroit metro area (if not the entire state)--has always supported its teams no matter how marginal the product on the field/court/ice. Even way, way back in the days when the Wings were a 40-point team (yes, 40 points) that was 30 years removed from their last Cup, fans still supported the team. Hell, the Lions have won precisely one (1) playoff game in the time I've been on this earth, and folks still head downtown weekly. And of course, we all know about a certain stadium that for 40 years has drawn around 100,000 fans each fall saturday in times great, good, and. . .well, challenging.
The economy undoubtedly has had a significant and negative impact on fans' ability to cough up $ for tickets, and as Michigan has been in the tank for nearly a decade, reduced attendance really shouldn't be unexpected or deemed unreasonable. So no, I don't think Detroit will lose a team any time soon for lack of attendance--it'll come back, and come back strong, once the economy recovers.
There's something more going on with sports fans in MI that virtually guarantees the success of non-WNBA professional sports teams, and it's often the subject of beer-fueled conversation with friends where I now live (DC). Fans here are generally fickle and fairweather--exception being the Redskins fans, who bitch annually about how the Skins are surely the worst team in the history of football. Since their last Super Bowl win. In 1991. (I usually come over the top with either "well, in detroit we don't have an NFL team" or the one-win-Lions riff).
What I really think drives Detroit sports fans is. . .god, I hate saying this. . .it's hope. Hope for the recovery of the auto industry. Hope for a better economy. Hope for the resurrection of the city of Detroit. Hope for success, in some tangible form.
For those of us who grew up in Detroit--and especially for those who've moved on and experienced what "big city life" can and should be, it becomes more clear what those Detroit sports teams are really a durable, reliable bonding point for fathers and sons (and among friends) that provide a distraction from all that is weighing on the region. Yes, there are areas like this within every big city or region of the US; it just so happens that Detroit (and Michigan generally) has had a rough haul for a long, long time. And the teams--winning or not--give folks something to talk about that's insulated from the sometimes crushing, always important things in daily life, like, say, finding a job in a state with 15% unemployment.
And we'll continue to watch them, reveling in the wins and complaining about the losses. And maybe, one day, the hope many of us have had that Detroit might finally get itself an NFL team. . .maybe it'll come true. . .and I for one am willing to keep checking in on them, just in case.
(now, back to talk of estrogen--there's some awful NPR story on a Broadway play about vibrators, and the discussion is, for some reason, not trending well. . .).
December 12th, 2009 at 1:59 PM ^
I would tl;dr you. But you have a damn good reason, plus you made some good points.
God speed, young man. Enjoy the time with the 'rents.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:50 PM ^
Well said. Remember '97 when the Wings finally won after 40+ years or whatever? Imagine if the Lions actually won a superbowl.
The only worry I have about the sports teams is the population loss that the state, especially the Detroit area, has seen over the last couple of years.
Good luck at your gal's parents place. My wife is English and we went to England to visit her family for two weeks. I'm going through customs and the guy is giving me the typical 20 questions. He gets to "Why are you visiting Enlgand" and I tell him "I'm spending two weeks with my in-laws." He stops, immediately stamps my passport and says "Good luck!" I think he had more questions but felt so sorry for me that he didn't have the heart to ask any more.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:57 PM ^
That link is too last year's data (2008-2009). This year the Pistons are pretty middle of the pack at 13th.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2010
December 12th, 2009 at 2:48 PM ^
And until this year, the Pistons have been either first or second in the league in attendance every year since 2002. I don't think one year of being only slightly above average suffices as grounds to move the team.
Hell, with Michigan's unemployment rate at 76% and a team that looked rough out of the gates, they're pulling pretty well.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:29 PM ^
In other words, even when the Pistons are having a down season, they still can pull above-average attendance (13th out of 30). Many teams with better records are drawing smaller crowds.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:57 PM ^
Nobody thought that the Browns would leave Cleveland or the Colts leave Baltimore, those were NFL traditional strongholds more so than Detroit. No one would ever think that LA (2nd or 3rd largest market) would ever be without an NFL team. I just don't think that tradition or how long a team has been in a city plays as much relevance now-a-days as it used to. The one thing most people are overlooking isn't necessarily the butts in the seats, but the butts in the suites. Those are where these teams are having the huge setbacks financially. You don't see the suites on TV, but in person, wow are there many, many, many dark suites night in and night out.
December 12th, 2009 at 2:09 PM ^
All of the franchises you cited had lousy stadiums and/or lease agreements that limited their profitability. Three of the four Detroit franchises are doing extremely well on this front; the other is the Red Wings, who aren't going anywhere (and will almost certainly build a new arena in the near future).
December 12th, 2009 at 3:28 PM ^
The Wings might have to wait for the financing industry to rebound to begin the new arena plan... their arena plans are the worst kept secret in Detroit, though.
December 12th, 2009 at 2:09 PM ^
We have 3, plus the Lions.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:09 PM ^
If one were to move, it would be the Pistons. Mrs. D is selling off everything. Most of you don't know that that Palace Sports and Entertainment own the Asheville Tourists Baseball team (Single-A to the Colorado Rockies). It has recently become public that the team is up for sale. They also own Meadowbrook and DTE.
That being said, i don't see them moving anywhere but downtown Detroit in the next 10-12 years. Even if she were to sell the team (which i don't see happening), i believe they would look to build an arena downtown... Maybe share a new facility with the Red Wings?!?!?
December 12th, 2009 at 5:27 PM ^
Why on earth would the Pistons give up a fantastic lease agreement they have on the Palace (an arena also owned by the Pistons' owners) to share an arena, owned by someone else, with the Wings on what is guaranteed to be worse terms?