Lets reflect on Lloyd's last OSU game
I hope the RR must go crowd reflects back on Carr's last OSU game, a miserable 14-3 loss to the Bucks where our offense looked totally impotent.
Henne was hurt (Mallett was a freshman who had not shown much), Hart was hurt (the running game was gone) and despite having Breaston, Manningham (and maybe Arrington?) we could not move the ball, period.
The defense played pretty well, but the game was painful. Our offense looked slow and stone age, unable to get receivers open, despite the lack of ground game.
The year that started with two spread teams, App State and Oregon, shredding us, finished with up plodding nowhere against the Bucks. Remember this?
Can there be any doubt that RR's Michigan will be an offensive juggernaut for years to come? The offense is very young, too. Denard is a sophomore who had thrown for 2500 yards and run for 1500. Progress? Give me a break.
OK, the Defense sucked for the most part, but where are the bodies Lloyd left behind? This year is his senior class, not RRs.
So even if we get hammered in Columbus, we finish 7-5, with 3 of the lssses coming against teams ranked in the top 10, a loss to Iowa, which was ranked top 10 at one point, and Penn State.. Like it or not, that is progress too.
Time to accept the fact that the uniforms dont win games by themselves, as hard as that is to accept. Rich Rod is building a good program, has proven to be a good guy (witness dizzy Denard not going back in vs Illinois) and he is recruiting up a storm..
Dee Hart AND Justice Hayes? are you kidding?
The defensive recruits are next.
We are on the way back. And so is Rich Rod
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:02 PM ^
And should have ended here-
Henne was hurt (Mallett was a freshman who had not shown much), Hart was hurt (the running game was gone) and despite having Breaston, Manningham (and maybe Arrington?) we could not move the ball, period.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:50 PM ^
So here's the deal. If people are allowed to rip Lloyd for losing to Tressel when Lloyd was missing his senior QB, his senior RB and a junior WR then RR should be crucified for losing when he was stuck playing Feagin. When your team is stuck mining the depth chart due to injuries you get cut some slack.
Looking at any one game and trying to play the blame good is often an exercise in futility. You have injuries, you have teams on hangovers from previous games, you have horrible weather conditions. What you do is look at aggregate data. Good coaches find ways to win, people like Saban, Tressel, Miles, Carr, and even Bo might get destroyed in one game due to injuries or simply getting punked (like when we loaded up with the spread passing attack Florida had never seen before and tore them apart). So you look at winning percentage over seasons to get a good feel.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:35 PM ^
I don't think you can use Miles in this argument. The guy has a horsehoe permanently embedded in his ass. How else can you explain some of his wins?
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:18 PM ^
by recruiting, maintaining and leading a stellar defense year-in year-out in a conference as good as any
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:43 PM ^
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:04 PM ^
Lets reflect on the Horror, or perhaps Tommy Amaker's last season as bball coach. Maybe we should have a post about having your wisdom teeth taken out.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:18 PM ^
Well, I don't know about you guys, but I can't wait to reminisce about the Brian Ellerbe years on the hardwood.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:49 PM ^
Its too bad I am too young to remember our hockey team under John Giordano.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:02 PM ^
Steve Breaston's last season was 2006. He was an Arizona Cardinal at the time of Lloyd's last OSU game.
And the blaming Lloyd for the cupboard being bare is an outdated meme, but thanks for bringing back that oldie but goodie.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:16 PM ^
Can a fact be a meme? It's not all Lloyd's fault, far from it, but some of the blame lies with him.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:23 PM ^
One issue is that it's impossible to prove how this year's senior class (or the juniors recruited by Lloyd) would have performed under a different coaching staff. Would our linebacking corps be better with superior player development? Based on the performance of previous Michigan linebackers I would guess that there would be far fewer complaints about Mouton, Ezeh, et al. if Lloyd's crew was in charge, but I acknowledge that's impossible to prove.
This is not to say I'm on the "fire Rodriguez" bandwagon, just that, in year three, the blaming of Lloyd Carr for the current situation should be quieted down quite a bit.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM ^
If coaching is the (primary, perhaps) issue, would you give the RR cast points for moving Stevie Brown from DB (where he was, in the estimation of this 'blog, playing with various body parts during The Horror) to LB/Spur/whatever? Or, did Lloyd actually intend to do that and just not get around to it?
- - -
After the '11 NFL draft someone (perhaps me) will take a look at the long list (/sarcasm) of pros that Michigan produced the past three years.
- - -
Yes, it would be silly to say that coaching is irrelevant, especially with all the bungling (personnel and otherwise) that's gone on there the past couple of years. But, raw talent matters, too. There's been less than usual in the 4th/5th-year levels lately.
- - -
For the dense (not necessarily Mr. Dunlop), I think that explains part of RichRod's troubles. Not all. Not all. Not all. With me?
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:24 PM ^
I remember that game as a glimpse into a black hole. With Henne hurt & unable to throw, we had no literally no offense. Probably the most embarrassing too for M as Tressel just sat on the ball in the 2nd half because it was so obvious the M had no attack.
It retrospect, it was a clear prelude to the looming disaster of the 2008 season (regardless of who would have been the coach that year.)
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:27 PM ^
One problem, though, was that Lloyd left a shoulder-less Henne in rather than giving Mallett a chance. I understand why he did it -- if a warrior wants to play his last game, you give him the chance. But I don't think it would have been quite so ugly if Mallett got a chance, freshman and all.
With regard to the looming disaster, things wouldn't have been so bad with a sophomore Mallett at quarterback (especially if Manningham had returned, which might have happened if Carr was still around). This isn't to suggest that Rodriguez was a bad hire, just that I don't think anything resembling 3-8 would have been in the cards had we stayed the course.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM ^
Yeah, I see what you're saying on the "stay the course" issue, but Lloyd wasn't going to coach forever, and who else was going to take his place?
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 PM ^
Not questioning the Rodriguez hire, just taking issue with the statement that the 2008 game was a "clear prelude to the looming disaster of the 2008 season."
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 PM ^
Fair enough.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:53 PM ^
I said that "In retrospect, it was a clear prelude to the disaster..." with my point being that without the Henne-Hart super duo that M's offense was pretty dismal in 2007 and that, looking back, the 2008 offensive performance seems unsurprising.
And with respect to Mallett (and admittedly this is just my speculation), I believe it's possible that he was already planning (threatening?) to transfer and because of that, Carr had no problem sitting him in place of a less than 100% Henne. Mallet was not the answer here.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:01 PM ^
No, I understood your point -- you missed mine.
Henne did play in the OSU game. The problem wasn't that Henne was out -- it was that an ineffective and injured Henne was playing. If Mallett had played, we still probably would have lost, but perhaps it wouldn't have looked that hopeless.
With Mallett as our starting QB in 2008 it certainly wouldn't have been a national championship year, but it wouldn't have been DOOM. I don't disagree that if Mallett transferred we would have been screwed no matter who the coach. I'm just taking issue with your statement that a poor performance by an injured Henne in the 2007 game was a sign of things to come.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 PM ^
did you watch him in the Wisky game? he looked very sheridanesque. i too would give an injured henne over mallett against osu.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:00 PM ^
I seem to remember Mallet coming in for a drive in the second half where he promptly fumbled and we went three and out. The douche sitting behind who was screaming for Mallet and booing Henne then promptly left as we asked him why he was not booing Mallet for being exactly what you would expect of a true freshman playing in horrible conditions against a team on its way to the national championship game.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:20 PM ^
Mario was good as gone, regardless of the coaching situation - but Arrington may well have stayed if Carr had stuck around. Boren, obviously, as well.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:57 PM ^
There was definitely a sense of futility at the 2007 OSU game that year. We punted the ball a million times and let Tressel control the game. Lloyd wasn't "at fault" per se, but there was a frustrating sense at the time that Ohio State had his number and was going to continue beating us annually.
I remember there were lots of obnoxious OSU fans with "We Love Lloyd" t shirts on at the game. Was he our version of John Cooper? No, far from it. But our program 3 years ago still had great difficulty hanging with Tressel's Bucks. In Rich Rod's defense, the Michigan program he inherited was getting beaten consistently by our rivals down south.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:09 PM ^
Are there non-obnoxious OSU fans? Just wondering...
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:26 PM ^
His name is Luke and he lives in the Benton Harbor area....
Loves the Game, passionate and thoughtful; he's even a gracious winner.
No, really - I'm being serious.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:25 PM ^
My father-in-law is a very gracious OSU fan and not at all obnoxious.
I am however very grateful that I did not do any trash talking in the John Cooper era.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:02 PM ^
Like many posters here, I was at that horrible weather game and we really had no chance from the beginning.
Our advantage over that OSU team and best chance to win was in the passing game and that was entirely neutralized by the weather and the fact that Henne could barely lift his arm above his head, it wasn't Lloyd's fault at all. I still remember him hobbling into the locker room sometime in the second quarter and coming back out to try valiantly again.
Turned into a game in the trenches between Beanie and a gimpy Hart, this was the perfect storm (pun intended) for OSU.
Dunlop is right that having Henne and Hart out there was probably bad for the team, but after four great years, you have to let them finish their careers at Michigan Stadium fighting.
This offense dealt with injuries all season and showed what it was capable of against Florida. Go watch that game and tell me this was a bad offense and that Lloyd was too conservative.
That game can't be compared one bit to RR having to play Feagin. RR's problem's have been created largely by his own decisions. He could have talked Mallett into staying which would have kept Arrington and likely Boren and Manningham. Did Urban Meyer tell Chris Leak he was going to run his offense the only way he knows how, like it or leave it? No. He adjusted his offense to his current players until he could get players to run the offense the way he preferred. Even when Tebow was a freshman, Meyer was smart enough to do what was best for the team.
Why we didn't adjust to a passing spread with Mallett is beyond me. There would have been no DOOM, the bowl streak would be alive, much pain would have been avoided, and maybe we could have actually concentrated on the defense which according to so many on this site had some holes in the class of 2011 class.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:12 PM ^
Who the hell ever said RichRod ran Mallett out of town? If you read the tea leaves, Mallett was on his way out before Lloyd ever resigned. He wasn't liked by his teammates at all. Arrington and Manningham were always gonna leave as well. What is this shit you tell yourself and convince yourself is true? Is it something others in the fanbase do?
And LOL at the Urban comment in spite of present-day Florida having awkward QB in his system. It worked okay when they had a top-ranked defense bailing out their average offense in 2006, but Urban is just like RichRod or any other coach in the sense that he needs players that are tailored to his system. So drop the "RichRod doesn't adjust and he ran superduper stars like Mallett and Manningham outta town" bullshit.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:36 PM ^
If Mallett wasn't liked by his teammates, why did he fly back to Ann Arbor to participate in Mock Rock in the spring of 2008? Generally speaking, guys who transfer don't feel an obligation to participate in things like that.
I think that here, as in so many other things, the truth lies in between the two extremes. Mallett didn't announce his transfer for a few weeks after the coaching change. Whether there was a real chance to keep him around, we don't really know. But it seems that RR was not particularly interested in having to re-recruit any player who was thinking of leaving then.
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:32 PM ^
Maybe he was still trying to get others to like him which is typical of younger individuals in a group who aren't liked. You know, wanting something you can't have. Or maybe he wanted to rub it in that if they would have been a little nicer, he would have stayed. Generally speaking I don't know why people do most of the things they do because it isn't usually that simple.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:45 PM ^
So is it Lioyds fault or RR's fault .. I'm so confused
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:35 PM ^
It took actions and decisions by both of them to get us here. Decimated defenses require many years to bring to fruition!
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:19 PM ^
Amusing and sad that Carr is still being blamed for what's currently happening on the field.
That game was, as Carr said afterwards, "a tough defensive battle."
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:24 PM ^
was in the very small line of productive seniors who played their final game at Michigan Stadium Saturday.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:02 PM ^
I was sitting in the student section for that rainy miserable disaster. No need to re-live it
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:02 PM ^
It was cold and Troy Smith was there. That's all I remember.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:11 PM ^
2005, Michigan had a 10 point fourth quarter lead... Ugh... took a redeye from L.A. to get to that game, couldn't sleep on the flight, stayed up about 48 hours straight.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:08 PM ^
Terrible, I was on the sidelines for this one! Actually a 9 point lead with about 10 minutes to go.... and we had held them to 12 points all game, thought we had it for sure... That just summed up the 2005 seaon...
A loss there, a loss on a QB draw @ wisconsin, a 17-10 home loss with about what seemed like 15 redzone turnovers against ND, and about a 60 yard run to set up a FG for minnesota (who was without their starting QB and trying to run out the clock).........
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:12 PM ^
Troy Smith's last season was in 2006.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 PM ^
I don' t think that excludes him from being at the game.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:54 PM ^
Right, he was there in 2005, scrambling for first downs on third and looong in the fourth quarter...
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:03 PM ^
Let's not.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:07 PM ^
some of that ole John Navarre magic. The last QB to beat the Bucks.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:48 PM ^
Now that is a sobering thought.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:06 PM ^
I was there.
Pure 100% Tressel-Ball. Tressel let his defense control the game and went ultra conservative on offense (much like 2009's game) to avoid any Pryor-esque errors.
It was Beanie and their D against an injured (but heroic) Henne with no running game.
The score looked closer than it was.
November 24th, 2010 at 12:24 AM ^
Some people use that phrase as an insult.
Is it?
Would Michigan fans be happy with a team that wins almost all of its games using Tressel's style?
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:08 PM ^
So we lost a game 14-3 to an eventual National Runner-up. when we had multiple injuries on offense. What does that have to do with RR?
We went 6-2 in the b10 that year, and probably could have went 7-1 but we put all of our bags into the OSU basket and sat some key players for Wisco.
You go on in your post to excuse getting housed by the top teams in the conference and salivating over some HS that haven't played a collegiate snap and point to that as progress. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll leave the final judgment down to the pimp hand itself.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 PM ^
6-2 in the Big 10 and only losing to tOSU by 2 scores. I've seen worse seasons.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:27 PM ^
91 yards with an offense full of upperclassmen and soon to be NFL players.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:51 PM ^
Yep your right Carr sucked. That 91 yards had nothing to do with the injuries on offense.