I love how anyone who isn't praising Carr is being negged for trolling or flaming. Why have an open forum if you just want everyone to agree with you?
Carr allegedly advised 2008 commit to flip to Iowa
You're being negged because you bring no actual information or cogent points to the debate. As evidenced by your Tressel/Carr comments that first got people negging you. At this point you're either being delibrately dense or trolling. Why have a voting function on this open forum if we can't use it?
If you'll note, justingoblue and myself exchanged comments on how Carr should have handled it. We're both at 5 score for those comments right now since we were civil and I think both of us had a fair point (I even upvoted him). There is no blind personality cult voting as a bloc, but the board is intolerant of those who don't back their arguments up with logic or links. It's even less tolerant of voting related gripes.
So I'm supposed to believe that because two long time posters got upvoted, that the system works? Now who's being dense? Certain posters on here could reply with, "my hamsters name is Charlie." and it would get upvoted.
my hamsters name is Charlie
I rest my case.
It wasn't the punctuation that was getting him negged.
My apologies I'm replying from my iPod at work.
So it must be something else.
Though it does seem like you latch onto some topic every two weeks or so and get bombed for it. Might want to work on your delivery.
I usually only post on things I feel strongly on, which would probably explain the lack of tact.
I was going to fix it, but had to run and put Charlie back in his hutch.
hopefully it was posted as fast as I read it.
Also, good to know even more about your family!
He speaketh and Creation!
Also please explain how the majority of Michigan fans defending Carr saying he did no wrong, is not comparable to the OSU fan base saying Trasel did no wrong? Wether or not you believe one was right and one was wrong the quickness in which the fan base defends their old coach is comparable.
Tressel: Lied (in breach of his employment contract and NCAA rules) to keep current players elegible. Tressel admitted lying, was fired by his employer and censured by the NCAA for his actions.
Carr: At absolute worst, advised an ill-fitting committ to look elsewhere for playing time without permission of the current head coach (who would have, under pretty much any circumstances, never extended an offer in the first place and was honoring a past offer). For this he was...later thanked by the recruit in question and nothing has been said by former Michigan coaches.
Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit. I didn't compare Carr to Tressel, I compared how the two fan bases defend them to no end.
Try to keep up.
Since when is perception not supposed to be based on actions? Let me take this to an extreme example: let's say Tressel murders a puppy. If the Ohio fanbase still claim he's a great guy, they're delusional, because great guys don't murder puppies. On the other hand, let's say a little kid really wants a puppy, but the puppy in question is a German Shepherd that needs a lot of room to exercise, and the kids parents live in a small apartment. Lloyd Carr tells the animal shelter, "let's find a different home for this particular puppy". The kid might be sad until he finds another, different, puppy, but the puppy is happier with another family on a farm.
His actions here are defensible, even when taken in the worst possible context; Tressel's are not.
Also, I think this is my first ever MGoAnalogy using puppies.
Using your analogy, let's say Tressel claims he killed said puppy because he felt one of his players was in danger. Of course his fan base would believe him, just the same as Carrs fan base believes him.
What you're missing here is the degree of seriousness between the two. Going back to what actually happened, Tressel repeatedly lied in breach of contract. The worst thing Carr is alleged to have done on this thread is steer a recruit away from Michigan without the backing of the head coach at Michigan. One of those things can leave you as a man worth looking up to, and one doesn't.
If we all turn on the news tomorrow, and they're reporting that Carr had lied to keep Henne, Long and Manningham elegible for the 2006 Ohio game, he would be ripped into shreds on here, assuming the information was credible. There has been plenty of Carr criticism on MGoBlog, from Brian on down, but this isn't something to get hung up on, especially compared to Tatgate.
I am in no capacity comparing the severity of what Tressel did to what Carr did. However, According to Bacon, Carr did much more than (allegedly) steer a single recruit to Iowa; he offered to sign transfer papers for his players before RR ever got to campus. I understand the respect and admiration for Carr, but I feel like Michigan fans overlook that fact.
that's fine. I still think Carr deserves the respect he gets, especially when taking a look at guys like Tressel, Paterno, Kelly, Petrino, ect. who all had scandals related to integrity issues. I might think Lloyd went about things the wrong way, but I think he's always been honest and tried to do things the way he felt was best.
Ok. Let's assume this is fact--that Carr offerred to sign transfer papers before RR ever got to campus. Bacon reports this based on what players told him. But guess what's missing? The context. Those using this as evidence of Carr's treachery seem to assume that this offer was made with suggestions that they should transfer and not stick around to see what RR is all about. But what if the offer was prompted by players grumbling about a new coach and Carr told them, "stick around, talk to the new coach before you make a decision, but if any of you are such pu$$ies you can't man up and talk to the new coach before making a decision, come by my office, and I'll gladly sign.
Same offer, two completely different motives. Since Carr didn't sign any of the transfer offers, it really seems doubful he was actively working to push players away before RR set foot on campus.
Yeah but Carr had integrity and didn't break any NCAA rules, therefore defending him isn't blindly illogical. It has nothing to do with reading comprehension, rather it has everything to do with whether the person's character is worth defending without serious bias.
Right or wrong, both coaches claimed and believed they had their players best interests in mind. You just see it differently because you have Maize and Blue glasses on.
I'll use a real life example. I have NEVER read a single nice thing about Gene Smith here, just lots of terrible things. That said I had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife last year at the Big Ten Championship. Gene was one of the nicest guys I have wet met, even though my belter and I were wearing all Michigan gear. He invited us to come to Columbus this year to watch the game with him and his wife.
You perceive him to be a terrible man because he represents OSU, I know this to be false.
Your Gene Smith analogy has nothing to do with this conversation, he gets a bad rep for being poor at his job, not for being perceived as a bad person...
The Tressel and Carr comparisons are apples to oranges in every way. Tressel might have had the interests of his players in mind, but he also had winning a championship on his mind (having said involved players gave him the best chance to win.) Carr thought that a player might have been a square peg in a round hole once RR was hired so he advised him to maybe look elsewhere.
I honestly don't think you can be this dense, sure there are some here who praise Carr, but there are also plenty who dislike Carr for the way the RR years went down. You are getting negged because you don't seem to grasp the discussion and continue to bring it back to OSU's fanbase vs UM's fanbase when it comes to defending recent coaches.
I will just smile and nod at this point.
You sound like that ignoramus who is on the afternoon show on WTKA on Thursday, Dan from Pinckney.
Get over it already. Get off this board and stop spreading your idiocy if you can't face the fact your lovechild rr was a failure of a coach here.
Seriously. Why are people still giving a shit about him?
It's two weeks away from the season with a REAL coaching staff and a team fresh off a BCS win, and people like you are still whining like it's 2010.
You make it sound like a bunch of fans on an internet forum may somehow cause bad things to happen this season if they discuss the past.
Feel free to keep your head buried in the sand if you cant face the fact that Carr did damage to the program. I never said RR didn't fail. It is extremely possible that had Carr supported him, he still would have failed. But only an "ignoramous" would insist that Carr advising kids to choose other schools and signing off on transfers would help Michigan win football games.
I don't want to live here anymore.
Because during the RR era everybody was thinking "Man, if only we had John Wienke as our qb!"
RichRod ass kiss story.
Anyone know if the practice tonight at Ford field will be open to the public?
both knew we had Threat and Sheridan already. There was no way he could have ran the spread option attack better than those two. Case closed!
Who cares! It wouldn't have even mattered. Replace Sheridan/Threet with Weinke and you have the same result. Pocket passers running the ball with Navarre like mobility. Now kindly Get OFF my Lawn!
We don't need any more of this stuff now. We're on the verge of a huge game and a new season - let it go.
Lloyd Carr looks out for the kids first. This kid was a better fit at Iowa since they run a pro offense. Besides Rodriguez isn't exactly a coach I'd want one of my kids to play for. His former players rarely speak positive about him. I think he's a selfish asshole.
Just think, he could have advised him to go to Iowa and play running back. Gasp!
And the "If Carr had clearly reccomended RR for the Michigan job and was the first person toe contact him, why didn't he support him?" Lets go back into the text of the obviously biased Jon U Bacon himself.
How were Lloyds assistants and staffers dealt with again?? Sitting in a hallway for hours on end awaiting their appointment to beg for a job that the new guy has already made it clear you're not going to get??
Did we miss reading this crucial part of the book? Does anyone not see that this is the moment when the Carr/RR relationship soured? You have more than a couple dozen people who have been a part of your program for years, they have become more than assistants/coordinators/trainers etc. to you, they are like family. When the new guy handles them as poorly as RR did the seeds of discontent were sewn. Every one of those Carr people, when they ran into Lloyd about town, had nothing but hatred for the way they were treated and ol Lloyd got to relive it with them over and over.
Ask yourself how Lloyd would have treated the outgoing staff if he was the new guy?? After all having met the man myself and knowing a couple guys who played under him the one thing that is most often refrained about Lloyd is the word "class". Something the rube from the former Hatfield territory knew to little about.
Bitch about Debord, bitch about undeachieving on the field with talent to do better, bitch about his ultra conservative playcalling and I've got no beef. However to assign such petty adjectives as "self centered, egotistical, crabby, jealous etc." to the man you need to show me where, in our 20+ years of having him a part of the Michigan program and having forged relationships with countless hundreds of kids, he has established a reputation for any of these adjectives? I just don't see it.
Conversely, what reputation had RR forged for himself in WV?? In a trial the chorus of character witnesses for Lloyd would be around the block, with very few that I know of who would testify to the contrary. I don't think it would take long to find somebody anxious to sing about how RR screwed them over on a real estate deal or whatever.
You are what you spend 20 years being, not what some outsider can twist one incident into making you appear to be.
to someone like, uh, you. But...
Firing all of the former assistants, despite the wishes of the hiring athletic director is not new. A guy named Bo Schembechler did it -- he kept two of Bump Elliott's staff, despite a firm request from Don Canham. And Bump Elliott remained staunchly supportive of Bo despite that.
And if you had read Three and Out carefully, you'd have known that Bill Martin raised the same issue with Rodriguez (keeping the assistants), only to have been schooled by a remarkably together Mary Sue Coleman who said firmly, "Bill, you can't ask him to do that..."
The rest of your garbage was so dumb and insulting it was painful to read.
Clearly you missed the point. How were they fired?? Did Bo have Elliots guys waiting in a hallway talking amongst themselves while they awaited the executioner?? I don't know firsthand but something tells me that's not how it happened.
I have been terminated or layed off or downsized 2X in my life of over 40yrs. Once it was handled with dignity, compassion and understanding. Once it was not. My opinion of those respective companies reflects this.
BTW, you're welcome everyone. I got him in here!! and with nothing more than "dumb and insulting garbage".
and that speaks volume to me on RR's character. For those who defend Carr and diss RR, just think about what if Denard is not our QB right now.
I don't get why people are butthurt over this. I'm sure Rodriguez shed no tears.
he was right. Iowa was a better fit for Wienke. If a HS kid asks that kind of question under that circumstance, Carr probably should have defferred any response. But, once he chose to respond, there was only one appropriate answer.
Was no better than our other options... Done with this story.
I don't care about this era anymore. I think it would be better if we all just put it into the past.