This Week's Obsession: Naughty and Nice Comment Count

Seth

goodvsevil

Right? (No not really)

I could have asked this when 4th and Long came out, or that time when a recruit gushed about Alabama's honesty and academics, or countless other recent days when the rusty nail of the current competitive atmosphere and my alma mater's place in it took another hammer blow.

"Youngstown Boys" finally inspired this question when I caught myself about to tweet something along the lines of "Ohio State is one of college football's most notorious bad-guys..." (inference that Michigan is a "good guy" meant). And I caught myself, because absent the rivalry and unenforced arbitrary rules by the feckless NCAA, what's so "evil" about a guy hawking a piece of memorabilia he was given for throwing passes over JT Floyd's head?

Course then we all went on vacation, but a few days after the antithesis of college athletics' weird version of morality won the last BCS title to end the long streak of the antithetical conference, so might as well get this out there:

Do you believe it's fair to characterize some programs as "good" or "evil" relative to their peers? What standards do you judge that on? Which schools are top- or bottom-five at this intercollegiate athletic morality stuff? Where's Michigan?

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Brian: This has gotten considerably more difficult as coaching salaries have spiraled out of control and non-revenue sports have gotten ever more palatial palaces for 200-300 people to observe them in. Literally every move in the past 15 years of college football has been an "I'ma get mine" decision from the university presidents on down save some measures from the NCAA like the APR, so it's hard to get on schools that are obviously paying kids like Clemson and Ole Miss like you used to, because subverting an increasingly dishonorable system is not the same thing as the Pony Express was.

treadwell
Possible responses:
1. "Don't post this to Twitter".
2. "Lol so little!".
3. "Why are we even pretending?"

I do still get irritated because this is not 'Nam, there are rules, and vigilante justice is still, like, not legal either. It's frustrating to be a fan of a team that is pretty much on the up-and-up--the NCAA came in with the Rich Rod allegations and came back with penny-ante bullshit--that happens to pretty much suck and watch LaQuon Treadwell do LaQuon Treadwell things. This is the reason all Michigan fans should be selfishly interested in loosening up compensation rules for athletes: Michigan has money, but can't use it to make the revenue sports good. If they could...

Anyway, the true bad guys these days are the ones who take in anyone who can spell their name in three tries and shuffle them through garbage classes they barely have to attend and then spit them out the other end, helpless once their body doesn't make them money. Who are those people? To some extent, everyone, for the same reason seven-foot-tall guys don't shoot free throws that well: they are on the court because of things other than their free throw shooting. A lot of athletes get to college totally unprepared to be at said college, and it is probably better for them to have a shot at fame and a pro career than to toil away at a JUCO anonymously. But some schools are willing to do whatever to keep guys eligible. I don't really know who other than North Carolina, and even that case is more about subverting individual professors who lack oversight than a university-wide conspiracy.

So I've pretty much given up on good and evil with the following exceptions:

[Annoying, probably financially motivated cliffhanger jump goes here]

  1. Wisconsin basketball, always.
  2. Ohio State fans are 20% awesome, 40% average, and 40% barely restrained animals, which is about 4x the next-worst college program.
  3. Oversigning bastards, which is mostly Alabama but also various SEC outfits like Tennessee this year.
  4. Dick Vitale
  5. The NBA
  6. Title IX

None of those thing are controversial save Title IX, so let me explain. Most of the things that are bad can be fixed by simple changes, but whenever you propose these changes everyone's all YOU CAN'T BECAUSE TITLE IX, because Title IX is broken as it applies to the NCAA. It doesn't account for the fact that a number of programs make money and thus are not charity cases. These happen to be the ones with the most problematic ethics things, because they make money. So the easy oversigning fix--everyone can sign 22-25 a year every year, no exceptions--gets shouted down because it potentially increases the number of kids on scholarship on football teams. Because that's a problem. Too many players going to college for free.

As for Michigan, any program that would look at this offensive line and say no thanks JUCOs is probably near the upper tier of academic integritizing and they either aren't paying players or not paying enough. But talking about yourself in these things always has a whiff of...

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Ace: I've given up on the good vs. evil stuff, largely for the same reason as Brian—the greatest evil in all of this is the system designed to generate tons of money for a few (almost exclusively rich) people in power positions based on the work of many (often poor) student-athletes.

Before you shout "BUT SCHOLARSHIPS" you might want to read this CNN investigative piece published yesterday, coincidentally, by Sara Ganim, the reporter who won a Pulitzer for her work on the Jerry Sandusky case. It details the often large gap in academic achievement between the general student population and student-athletes in revenue-generating programs; while much of it focuses on their college entrance exam scores, there's also the huge issue of moving student-athletes through the system even if they're in no way qualified to earn the degree they receive, let alone prepared to make it useful:

Former and current academic advisers, tutors and professors say it's nearly impossible to jump from an elementary to a college reading level while juggling a hectic schedule as an NCAA athlete. They say the NCAA graduation rates are flawed because they don't reflect when a student is being helped too much by academic support.

"They're pushing them through," said Billy Hawkins, an associate professor and athlete mentor at the University of Georgia.

"They're graduating them. UGA is graduating No. 2 in the SEC, so they're able to graduate athletes, but have they learned anything? Are they productive citizens now? That's a thing I worry about. To get a degree is one thing, to be functional with that degree is totally different."

Unless such a player is moving on to the professional ranks, the value of that scholarship is four years of being able to play a sport, enjoy the college experience, and leave with a piece of paper that may or may not hold any real-world value; it's difficult enough right now for college grads with strong academic credentials that translate to their desired field to find a job. That schools—whether it be an institutionalized issue or a matter of rogue professors/tutors—are willing or complicit in being a part of this so they can field a decent football team is far more concerning to me than whether or not Recruit X was able to get a school to pay off his mother's mortgage.

8fkbo.AuSt_.156-307x350
North Carolina's professor was accused of receiving $12k for faking a class for athletes. Academic fraud aside, what does it say about a system that there's $12,000 out there someone's willing to pay to perpetrate academic fraud?

Do I believe Michigan has a higher-than-average "moral standing" among these schools when it comes to giving real academic support, playing by the NCAA's rules, and generally doing their best to have their sports programs reflect the values of the university at large? Yes. I took plenty of classes with athletes—including a couple that were sports-related and taken by a lot of football and basketball players—and never witnessed a student-athlete who was utterly unqualified to attend Michigan; that's not to say there aren't some out there, just that I've never even heard about student-athletes reading at an elementary level, which if you read the CNN piece is a surprisingly (or not, depending on your outlook) huge issue in big-time college athletics.

Also, while Michigan's athletic department is very compliant when it comes to matters of pay-for-play and the like, that doesn't mean some Wolverines aren't receiving benefits on the side that the program doesn't know about; regardless of the diligence of the coaches and compliance staff, there are always going to be boosters and local business owners eager to provide perks to athletes that, whether either party knows it or not, aren't legal by NCAA standards—that kind of stuff is nearly impossible to keep a lid on. I hope this isn't breaking news to anyone.

The posturing about moral high ground is silly to me, since it's done almost entirely by the fans, and quite often those fans have zero idea what actually goes on at their favorite program, let alone anyone else's. Until we collectively give up on the ridiculous ideal of amateurism—an ideal put in place by 19th century upper-class Brits who didn't want to compete on level footing with the working class—and find a solution that fairly compensates student-athletes for the revenue they generate, there will always be widespread cheating in a variety of forms, and I will have a very difficult time getting worked up about it as long as it's of some benefit to the actual athletes; academic fraud, of course, is another matter entirely.

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Mathlete: You guys are no fun. Obviously Ohio St and the entire SEC are evil. Must be Notre Dame and the pro-Catholic media silencing you. Well I won't be silenced.

OK, now that I've got that out of my system, time to go back to my wheelhouse and do some math. I think this is how we want to define evil.

Evil  =  P(Team willing to bend/break rules for football success)

With that as the general equation, I would define the evil equation as

[Institutional Football Reputation]
Evil =          --------------------------------------------------------------------                  
[Institutional Reputation] - [Institutional Football Reputation]

The more a school's total reputation is tied to the football reputation/success, the more likely they are to enable/ignore the things it takes to get a winning football team. As a whole, the Big Ten has a pretty high academic average and currently a lower overall football reputation than the SEC or OSU, thus the equation works.

Does any of this matter? I don't know. I don't know how I feel about the Ganim article. It's certainly not a surprise, but I don't know that there is a great harm in it either. The players get opportunities they certainly wouldn't have gotten otherwise, the school gets the advantage of their other athletic skills. Now the general exploitation of amateurism by the NCAA, that's an issue independent of academic skill. On a societal level, paying these guys is a non-issue. But if the rules need to change (as I think they do) then they deserve to be applied fairly across the sport. In the end it is just sports. The one issue I have is the revoking of scholarships, forced grey shirts and abuse of medical scholarships. As Brian noted, make strict seasonal signing limits and the problem goes away.

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BiSB: For the most part, I've given up on broad declarations of "good teams" and "evil teams." All schools do some sketchy stuff, but anymore I'm not sure which is worse. Is Michigan State's wrist-slapping spree in the wake of the Rather Hall potluck smackdown worse than Ole Miss's TOTALLY LEGITIMATE recent streak of landing elite talent? Is it worse than Ohio State's hilariously lax enforcement (and possible complicity) of a bunch of minor stuff? Hell if I know. But when I try to establish any objective criteria, Duke basketball ends up on the non-evil side of the ledger, which we all know can't be right.

NCAA_Football_14_Cover
According to EA this is the first time Denard Robinson ever appeared in the NCAA football series.

I agree with most of what has been said, especially about schools that march illiterate guys with blazing 40 times through Underwater Basketweaving or Trigonometry of Pursuit Angles 101 without any attempt to prepare them for life. But for me a lot of the 'good vs. evil' stuff these days is in the context of the increasing gap between the purported ideal of the "student athlete" and the growing reality that these are employees in a for-profit system. So while "evil" may be to strong a word, I have to add the people who are increasing that gap to the naughty list.

When you have an AD, for a completely random example, that increases revenue by a third but by all accounts directs almost none of that increase to student-athletes, that's a problem. When Jim Delany takes on Rutgers and Maryland and claims it is because of anything other than the TV footprint, the whole system looks like a farce.

And when the NCAA makes the argument it makes in the O'Bannon lawsuit, it has me rooting for the 'bad guys' when stuff comes up. These aren't the days where Bo Schembechler makes as much as your average accountant, or when Major League Baseball players had off-season jobs in hardware stores. This is HUGE business, and the longer the Powers That Be insist that the basis of that business should continue to eat cake but not cream cheese, the less I care when people tell that system to shove its head up its own monetization stream.

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Seth: Guys, I went long, and deleted half of it, and it's still long.

I've gone over this stuff in my head a lot—I think every critically thinking college football fan has to, since we cheer with might and main for a thing we all know to varying degrees has a lot that is wrong with it. My answer is a thing I kenned from Tolstoy, paraphrasing:

The constants that determine morality are right, wrong, fact, and man's utter fallibility in determining these things.

I got that from Great Books. I had to take Great Books because I wanted a college liberal arts degree from the University of Michigan, and Michigan won't hand over that kind of degree until you've not only read War & Peace but proven through several mediums that you can grok it. I got "grok" from Heinlein, another Great Books author. I got "kenning" from Stephen King, whom I read while sitting around my frat house, often stoned, failing Great Books.

6a00e553e551d188340147e139fc2b970b
A thing about stakes: a 5-star from Jeannette can make or break the career of a guy with a $3.5 million salary atop a $4 million buyout before he's coached his first game; if that player has a handler who wants to know if you'll match a free Corvette and a tricked out apartment, well, did you come to play big boy ball or not?

The path we take through college, and what we get out of it, varies by the individual. The college you go to is supposed to match your utter capacity for learning. I believe it's not so much about learning, but in learning how learn. A degree from a Big Ten university should put you in the 90th percentile of American kenning, and whether or not an employer is impressed by it, critical thinking is THE THING in just about anything you do.

There is undeniable good in athletic scholarships. Marlin Jackson was born with the mental capacity to ken Tolstoy, but came from a place that perverts good intentions and destroys those with them. He rode the vehicle of his athletic ability to the same classrooms, and now uses his mind and fame and money to rescue hundreds of kids from the dangers of places like he came from. Q.E.D.

There is also an undeniable bad in pretending that a lot of athletes are at school to learn to grok anything besides offense and defense. Michigan gets to be snooty about it because in a world where the only thing of value you can give a recruit is your degree, our school with the more valuable degree can effectively pay more than any other with comparable athletics. The reason the SEC, despite sitting on the nation's best talent,* historically couldn't keep up with the northern schools was they couldn't offer anything close to that type of education. The academic gap between Michigan and Alabama is the same as the athletic gap between Alabama and Eastern Michigan. That many athletes Michigan would want can't really ken the things Michigan wants to teach is irrelevant because 18-year-old humans are the worst at recognizing their limitations.

That gap, incidentally, is still well small enough to fit comfortably within that between the letter of NCAA law and the enforcement of it. You probably don't need to be told this, but the body in charge of regulating college athletics is in fact the very worst kind of bureaucracy. They're understaffed, and their investigators are mostly there as a stopover before taking a compliance position at a BCS program. They're also powerless: it's a mostly self-regulatory system, devised for a time when college presidents generally hated their athletic departments and therefore could be trusted to conduct a thorough investigation out of sheer academic pomposity. They do zero proactive regulation, waiting for schools or rival coaches or big news stories to find cases for them, which they invariably screw up unless the school itself retains that old arrogance (*ahem, Michigan). Their definition of a job well done is the appearance of relevance. They are, for nearly all intents and purposes, not.

So no on good and evil, but we can at least agree on the approximation of a consensus morality wherein righteousness isn't about who pays for cream cheese, and evil isn't throwing a sports hero some extra chicken wings in his carry-out order, and that selfishness in demanding a competent league-wide compliance system doesn't undermine the righteousness of it.

Baltimore Ravens Training Camp August 5, 2009
The Blind Side, both book and movie, raised a serious question for NCAA reformers: what do you do with a guy clearly born to play pro football but who's also clearly not going to get anything out of college at this stage in his life?

I believe I can approximate a factual-like-thing that Michigan's coaches are among the top echelon of programs that follow not just the dodgy regulations but the spirit of collegiate competition, and that part of that comes from the selfish reason and part of it comes from the Tolstoy/Schembechler-ism that facts are facts and right is right, so long as you can recognize it. But can we honestly pretend Dave Brandon's covetous athletic department is absolvable because it follows a set of unenforced, arbitrary rules governing what extra benefits their unpaid labor can receive?

Title IX** is a convenient excuse for a more systemic problem in the NCAA, i.e. that the right thing to do to serve the students they're supposed to serve is often directly contrary to the right thing to do for the rich guys and rich organizations they actually serve.

The players themselves are an underrated part of this whole morality play, since some show up with their hands out and the expectation that they're owed something for their abilities (the recruiting process doesn't help disabuse them of this notion), and others arrive with the dream of saving every poor kid in the Youngstown-Sharon metropolitan suckhole. It's hard, not impossible, for coaches to tell one from the other. I doubt any of us are in a position to do so, at least not until the facts are posted in a twitpic.

I balked when John Bacon suggested the way to fix the NCAA is bar true freshmen from playing and create a functional minor league system for gifted athletes who have no interest in learning Tolstoyian morality or what it is to grok. Those who are in it to play in 100k stadiums and have a degree to fall back on will take that deal; those who are in it as a necessary stopover before the pros would at least lose the pretense. Everybody might benefit from learning how to learn, but I think it's well established that plenty of players value a little bit of pay for their play over a quality education, and that people are willing to provide that pay, and it's not up to us or the NCAA to make that decision for them.

I've come around, because I can't think of a better way, but doubt it will ever happen. These are the same people it took 15 years to convince to have a playoff because their golfing partners might lose incremental revenue, and then it was only because they had a solution that makes more money.

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* (Pat Forde's insistence on the role of demographics is a total red herring; the people who've moved south in the last 20 years aren't producing many football players).

** (As any fan/friend/father of female athletes can attest, Title IX has done a lot of good too. The problem I think is it makes an outdated distinction between boys and girls instead of revenue/non-revenue, and that's not that hard of a fix.)

Comments

FreddieMercuryHayes

January 8th, 2014 at 3:49 PM ^

Wow, that's a lot of 'reasoning' and 'logic' for such a simple question. Of course there are evil programs. Are they a rival to UM? If so then evil. Do I not like them for making UM look bad? If so then, evil. It's really pretty simple guys.

BraveWolverine730

January 8th, 2014 at 3:58 PM ^

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to see Wisconsin as the most evil thing ever. (Note this was exacerbated by my engineering professor here at UM claiming one of his favorite memories as a Wisconsin fan was of Josh Gasser). 

Everyone Murders

January 8th, 2014 at 4:06 PM ^

You guys are generally a cynical lot (of course, it's not a mystery how the current NCAA landscape could make one cynical).  But it seems like there's excessive focus on the NCAA and insufficient focus on the institutions in your analyses.  The question isn't whether the NCAA set-up is optimal.  The question is whether some programs are good "relative to their peers".

Is the NCAA at times hypocritical?  Of course.  Is it terrible at enforcing major infractions, and terribly unjust in enforcing minor ones?  Of course.

But I think a lot of this misses the point.  Not all institutions are equal.  Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Michigan, Stanford and (to hell with) Notre Dame are all good examples of "good schools".  They endeavor to play by the rules, and seem to be mostly successful at it.  If there is an accusation of infraction, they seem to take it seriously.  None of them are perfect, but they appear to be trying to do things the right way.

I think it's pretty damn easy to draw a differentiation between Michigan and OSU as to how ethical the programs are.  I don't need to wring my hands too much and say "oh, but BGS can be a cakewalk degree, etc."  I know this is the case, but when the chips are down Michigan institutionally cares more about the integrity of the university and its reputation as an academic institution than OSU's administration.

No program is a pure as the undriven snow.  But it's pretty obvious that programs like OSU, Alabama, Ole Miss, and so on sell a big chunk of their institutional soul to succeed in football. And it's equally clear that some institutions (Vanderbilt, e.g.) work hard to maintain some institutional integrity.  Why run away from that? 

umumum

January 8th, 2014 at 5:09 PM ^

I would certainly like to think Michigan places a higher value on the academics of it scholar-athletes than other schools do.  And my instinct and heart say we do.  But unless you have actually played a revenue-producing sport at Michigan, how can any of us be so sure?  Like virtually everyone on this Board, I did not play football or basketball (or hockey) at Michigan.  But I do know a number of students who have tutored those athletes.  Many, if not most, of them received a great deal of academic assistance*---a great deal.

I appreciate the thoughts and suggestions of the OPs--as I do John Bacon and others.  Usually they only make me a little sad.

*My niece tutored a hockey player and recalls working with him on 10-15 papers.  Out of those 10-15, hockey was his chosen topic in ...... all 10-15.

 

Everyone Murders

January 8th, 2014 at 5:55 PM ^

I understand your queasiness on this - I share it to a degree.  The question, though, was:

Do you believe it's fair to characterize some programs as "good" or "evil" relative to their peers?  [Emphasis supplied.]

Do we really doubt that Michigan, Stanford, (to hell with) Notre Dame, etc., skirt the rules less than the likes of OSU, Tennessee, South Carolina, etc.?  Some institutions do all they can to skirt the rules and use athletes like chattel, while others try to hew to the rules and minimize exploiting loopholes to gain a competitive advantage.

The bottom line is I'm pretty sure that Michigan is less "evil" than Ohio State.  All programs have a blemish here or there (the Ed Martin scandal being our biggest one), but some schools look like toads and others look like Cindy Crawford.

These are not, in my mind, hard cases.

MichiganExile

January 8th, 2014 at 4:06 PM ^

The NFL is the entity with the rule that a player must be three years removed from high school to be draft eligible. Is there not some way that the NFL can support this very obvious "minor league" or does that simply dash the idea of amateurism right out the window?

Erik_in_Dayton

January 8th, 2014 at 4:18 PM ^

I think it's a reference to him, anyway...I have very mixed feelings about Michigan pointing him toward something other than an engineering degree, which was of course his goal.  I understand from ready many comments on the board that it's very difficult and time-consuming to obtain an engineering degree at U of M, but Patrick Omameh did it (I think), and I believe Jordan Morgan is on track to do it too.  I'm not sure it speaks well of Michigan that they didn't want to give Hand the chance, though their actions may have been motivated by the best of intentions. 

This speaks to a greater issue:  Is Michigan all that much better than, say, Louisville, Cincinnati, or USF if its players are directed toward (what seem to be) lesser degrees at Michigan?  In other words, what's point of going to Michigan if you can't go after its prized degrees?

I don't mean to say what I do above as if I'm totally convinced of it, but the issues do cocern me.*

*Does this make me a concern troll? 

UMgradMSUdad

January 8th, 2014 at 4:44 PM ^

From what some other posters said about this, it seemed there was almost zero chance Hand would have ever been accepted into Michigan's Engineerig program.  The "prized degrees" at a school like Michigan often have their own entrance requirements and even many academically talented students don't make it in or wash out at some point.

JeepinBen

January 8th, 2014 at 5:04 PM ^

I graduated with a BS in Mechanical engineering 2009, it was tough. First, your point about having to apply to the college of engineering is correct. They have their own admissions process, similar to Ross Buisness School. I'm not sure if Mr Hand would have been accepted or not, I have no idea.

However, I think it depends on what Hand wanted from his college education, and that actually fits well in this discussion. If Hand's plan is to go to "school" for 3 years, play football, take classes that interest him, and go play in the NFL, Michigan engineering isn't for him. I enjoy engineering, I'm a car guy who now designs car parts for a living. My classes were awesome - for me - so I understand that Hand may have wanted to take classes on phsyics and cars and things that lots of people like. But at Michigan, you can't take engineering classes and skate, or take it as an "interesting" class and be successful. M Engineering kicks your ass purposely to make sure that you're going to be a good engineer by the time you graduate. So, it depends on what Hand was looking for, because doing well in both Football and M Engineering would be really hard.

A good corrolary is Stephen Hopkins, who left the football team because he realized he couldn't get both a degree from Ross Business and stay on scholarship for football. He decided that Ross was a better spend of his time, and went that route.

However no one will read this because twitter says Borges ain't coming back.

wile_e8

January 8th, 2014 at 5:06 PM ^

I understand from ready many comments on the board that it's very difficult and time-consuming to obtain an engineering degree at U of M, but Patrick Omameh did it (I think),

I know for a while Omameh has been mentioned anytime players majoring in engineering gets brought up, but his bio mentions him as "enrolled in the College of Literature, Science and the Arts, majoring in communication and sociology." Obviously it hasn't been updated since he graduated, but it doesn't look like he did it. Does anyone know what happened here?

OlafThe5Star

January 8th, 2014 at 9:20 PM ^

Probably not as hard as Engin (based on my experience sharing apartments with engineers while at UM), but there have been a well known athletes in the BBA program, which is not an easy program. Zach Novak and Zoltan Mesko both have BBAs.

When I met Zoltan at a UM alumni event we spent fifteen minutes talking about how he could overcome a "late start" relative to other UM BBAs when he started his business career. His punting is still paying the bills for now, but he was plenty smart and was aware enough that when he is finished in the NFL (may it be decades from now!) he needs another plan. Very mature guy.

Score that under "STUDENT-athlete."

OlafThe5Star

January 8th, 2014 at 9:20 PM ^

Probably not as hard as Engin (based on my experience sharing apartments with engineers while at UM), but there have been a well known athletes in the BBA program, which is not an easy program. Zach Novak and Zoltan Mesko both have BBAs.

When I met Zoltan at a UM alumni event we spent fifteen minutes talking about how he could overcome a "late start" relative to other UM BBAs when he started his business career. His punting is still paying the bills for now, but he was plenty smart and was aware enough that when he is finished in the NFL (may it be decades from now!) he needs another plan. Very mature guy.

Score that under "STUDENT-athlete."

Erik_in_Dayton

January 8th, 2014 at 4:28 PM ^

The point about pushing kids through and getting them non-meaningful degrees is a good one, but the other side of that coin is that you could have a school do a very good and sincere job of educating a guy from, say, a freshman-in-h.s. level to a sophmore-in-college level.  But that kid wouldn't have a degree, so the school would seem from the outside to have failed him.   

BiSB

January 8th, 2014 at 4:41 PM ^

Schools taking mediocre academic performers and guiding them through college is somewhere between acceptable and noble.

Schools taking in mediocre academic performers, manipulating the system to keep them eligible without teaching them anything, and then spitting them back out... notsomuch.

Erik_in_Dayton

January 8th, 2014 at 4:46 PM ^

...that's why it's (at least conceptually) not that hard to draw a line between relatively good and bad programs, IMO.  The good program gives its players the chance to display their talents to the NFL and works hard to improve those players as students and people.  The bad program only gives its plays the chance to to display their talents to the NFL. 

Everyone Murders

January 8th, 2014 at 4:44 PM ^

I get the point about the meaningless degrees too, but it's not like that situation is exclusive to athletes.  Lots of students go to college for the wrong reasons, and many go "just to get a degree".  I don't think that most of us think the "school is failing" those kids.  We think that those kids are doing themselves a disservice. 

Of course there are selfish coaches who say "hey, a degree in cake decorating is the best choice for you" so they can slide a kid through the school and have them focus on training.  That's a disservice to the student.  But there are lots of kids who are looking to slide through with a degree, with little thought to that degree's utility - not just some student athletes.

Erik_in_Dayton

January 8th, 2014 at 4:51 PM ^

I think the important distinction is that there seem to be players at some schools - UNC may have fit this mold recently - who do not flunk out only because they are athletes.  The non-athlete student is at least going to have the real-world (for lack of a better term) lesson of being kicked ouf of school if he/she doesn't do any work.  The athlete at the wrong school will live in a fantasy world in which you get to slack off at your supposedly important vocation and face comparably small consequences as a result. 

991GT3

January 8th, 2014 at 4:31 PM ^

Michigan was in the top ten or competitive for the NC. 

The issue will always engulf college sports. Too many schools and programs. What one school would consider evel another will shrug off as no big deal. You cannot legislate or for that matter define moral behavior short of criminality.

In short, this is much ado about nothing.

Erik_in_Dayton

January 8th, 2014 at 4:42 PM ^

Sure you can.  One could write a million words about this, but I'll say the following:  Social pressure is a powerful force.  Many people will avoid violating - or at least appearing to violate - moral rules that are not laws of the state so long as there will be a social backlash if they violate (or appear to violate) those rules. 

Erik_in_Dayton

January 8th, 2014 at 4:52 PM ^

The poster I replied to seemed to suggest that there is no point in contemplating morality beyond the field of criminal law, and that's what I meant to address. I don't mean to say that moral rules inherently bring about good behavior.  They obviously don't! 

GoWings2008

January 8th, 2014 at 4:33 PM ^

And unfortunately, most of us as fans attach our impressions of good and evil to the conduct of fans from other schools. 

But this breakdown of the programs and all your reasoning behind it all was very fun to read.  I'm going to go back and read it again to see what I missed the first time. 

Great post, Seth.

itauditbill

January 8th, 2014 at 4:35 PM ^

The NFL won't spend the money and they don't need to. The NBA might... but there's too much money in the NCAA tournament.

However it is the one easy way to fix the system. There is a reason there are generally few if any major scandals in baseball, hockey. There are functioning minor leagues that allow players who want to earn money to do so as well as the fact there is relatively little money or interest in the college versions of those sports. (Which explains the lack of scandals on the women's side of college sports, no interest/money). If you were to allow players to skip college and go to minor leagues the ones looking to get paid would gravitate there and would take a lot of the evil out of college sports.

GoWings2008

January 8th, 2014 at 4:39 PM ^

Don't mistake the lack of scandal with the lack of reported scandal.  Also, there's less women's sports teams at your average university, so statistically less chance of scandals happening.  Also, its my personal opinion that women are better behaved than most men 18-22 years of age.

remdog

January 8th, 2014 at 4:38 PM ^

with the "good" and "evil" program premise in regards to following or breaking rules. But the NCAA exists as a bizarre entity where the typical rules of fairness and freedom are suspended.   How are we to judge "evil" when the NCAA itself is basically an "evil empire" which creates "evil" rules?

As for Title IX, it's a classic example of totalitarian thinking/government gone awry.  It assumes a world that doesn't exist and then forces everybody to live in it.

 

BiSB

January 8th, 2014 at 4:45 PM ^

The current problems with Title IX in the sports arena revolve around the same issues I wrote about; it assumes that revenue and non-revenue sports can be regulated in the same regime, but the gulf between then has grown astronomically since it was enacted.

FWIW, Title IX did some really, really good things for womens' sports. It just hasn't kept up with the times, where the real gap isn't between mens' and womens' sports, but instead between those with the Benjamins and those who lack the Benjamins.

ca_prophet

January 8th, 2014 at 6:16 PM ^

when considering student's athletic opportunities? Just because football is big business doesn't mean that's not 85 extra spots available to one gender only. I believe the school should care equally about the purple underwater basket weaving team as the blue American football team, regardless about how much revenue they bring to the school. In fact, I believe that in a non Title IX world, the big business sports generate more evil, because there would be less money spent on student facilities and more on football coaches salaries.

Ron Utah

January 8th, 2014 at 4:53 PM ^

I'd love to see the whole post, too, Seth.

This isn't as simple as the "pay-for-play" argument because of the system that's been constructed.  Bacon's idea is the best solution I've heard, and I don't love it.

But the idea that all these colleges are raking in huge windfalls "on the backs of players" is just not true:

The belief that college sports are a financial boon to colleges and universities is generally misguided. Although some big-time college sports athletic departments are self-supporting—and some specific sports may be profitable enough to help support other campus sports programs—more often than not, the colleges and universities are subsidizing athletics, not the other way around. In fact, student fees or institutional subsidies (coming from tuition, state appropriations, endowments, or other revenue-generating activities on campus) often support even the largest NCAA Division I college sports programs… While a winning team may generate some new students and donors, the price of participating in Division I athletics is high. And disparities in academic and athletic spending suggest that participating public colleges and universities reexamine their game plans.

That is from a study done by the Delta Cost Project published in January of 2013, and the study concludes that aside from a handful of universities, even the football programs are not big money-makers.

FBS football schools are spending $91,936 per athlete on athletics, and $13,628 per student on academics.  In fact, if you look at Michigan's 2008 football spending, they averaged $799,028 per player.  Yes, they brought in about $13.5 million in profit, but isn't about $800K per person enough to be spending on your student-athletes?  And isn't it good that sports like women's gymnastics have some of that $13.5 million so they can have top-class coaches and facilities too?

I am all for limited stipends for athletes--these kids don't have time to get jobs because of their sport, and a VERY limited stipend to cover some living expenses makes sense to me.  I'm talking about $500-1,000/month.  But to pretend these kids aren't already having hundreds of thousands of dollars devoted to them is just silly, and I don't believe we should create a system where just a few schools have the dough to pay players from profits, thus creating an even bigger "haves vs. have nots" scenario.

If you want kids to really get paid, then we should make them professionals, and not pretend they're "playing school."  Kids can then choose between getting paid to play or getting the education (sports included) from college.

 

Seth

January 9th, 2014 at 11:38 AM ^

The section I deleted was about Penn State and how it took 20 years of everyone in town knowing about Sandusky before a journalist published it. If you'll note I started with "Right, Wrong, and Fact" and never got to discussing how facts are warped just like right/wrong.

The point of the deleted section was that we really don't know the facts, just the side details that spill out. For example we have lots pics of Ole Miss and Texas A&M and Alabama and LSU players with wads of cash, but how much did they get, how were they paid, who does it, etc.? Even guys who give me inside information clam up when it comes to this stuff, because the kids know the system is broken and unfair and those who don't take cash don't want to ruin it for those who do (some of them need it, but it appears if the parents or family needs the money the money goes directly to them; the kids spend it as college kids are wont to do).

So what's fact? We "know" all of this stuff goes on but don't know what stuff goes on except in a few circumstances. The media, except--oh hamburgers--in Ann Arbor, are fans and invested in the teams doing well, so they keep their mouths shut and eyes closed. If you're the guy who turns on Tressel, or Saban, you are instantly labeled an enemy of the state and are exiled. Retribution is visited upon your children.

 

jsquigg

January 8th, 2014 at 5:00 PM ^

This is one of the best posts ever on mgoblog.  I have never seen this kind of dialogue (at least to this extent) on ESPN or the other major sports outlets.  Bravo.

charblue.

January 8th, 2014 at 7:57 PM ^

of the system. And you can brainwash yourself into believing that your program is far superior morality-wise than others because integrity is something you preach and hardly anyone calls you out about your failings when they do occur. 

The system has evolved like the rest of the corporate-dominated military industrial complex. When the hiring of a black coach at Texas prompts the school's biggest donor to complain about his hiring and then suggests the school was wrong not to hire his recommended guy, who every couch potato fan lists as the next coaching option for any opening that emerges in the pro or college game, and the guy hasn't coached in like 5 years, then it's hard to take his criticism seriously. 

It's like arguing that the SEC is far superior in college football than any other conference because three programs and their coaches in recent years put together a long winning streak for the conference in NC titles and now it gets the benefit of every doubt in every power ranking pre-and postseason. And this bias even extends to former power-laden conferences like FSU which are likened to the SEC even though that school long ago established its dominance based on the record one of the game's winningest coaches. 

So, Bowden is forgotten just like Paterno is regarded as a historic martyr and obstacle to be hurdled by a distressed PSU coach who leaves Happy Valley decrying his behind the scenes dealings with issues we can't even comprehend. Bill O'Brien runs to the NFL claiming its a purer game than college football because at least in the pros, you just coach.

Because at least in the NFL  you only have to deal with meddledsome owners. You don't have to deal with the Red McCombs of the world or fan bases who still recall the good old days and want you to respond to their every whim about offensive and defensive playcalling. 

College football is far more complex and corporate-driven these days than it seems to the casual viewer at least on the bigtime scale. And Michigan is part of that system, like it or not. An evil doer and empire-creator is always seen through the prism personal experience.

 

Former_DC_Buck

January 8th, 2014 at 8:14 PM ^

He let poor al Borges go despite his brilliant gameplan against OSU, while Urban has not fired anyone for letting the guy who had back to back games with negative rushing yardage earlier in the season look like a genius with a QB who was held together with spackle and duct tape? In all seriousness, I admired Gardner most of the season as he kept getting up and playing and even more after the details came out. Also, in seriousness, the first thing the local sports guys down here said was will Urban follow Hoke's lead and make changes to the defensive coaching staff.

Low Key Recidivist

January 8th, 2014 at 8:45 PM ^

I'm basically in agreement with you.  Just like the normal Joe/Jane, college is what you make of it.  

But I would add to that my personal belief that if the student athlete is willing to work at the academic side, even if they are not particularly gifted, there are definite and possibly measurable benefits.  The rigor, teamwork, dedication, and cameradirie required to participate in a team sport at a very competitive level is not unlike the military approach for developing leadership.  This cannot be discounted as a positive life skill.

I have a degree in Engineering, and used it for approximately 3 years of my life.  The discipline I learned from the tough curriculum combined with the leadership skills I learned in the military during 10 years at sea were what got me where I am today.

The kids are recruited to play football, and FWIW, a strong percentage of the current team frankly doesn't even apply here.  But for those that do, if most are legitimatly trying to get an education and the rest at least learn something, doesn't that benefit the country as a whole?

Seth

January 18th, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^

Very good point. I didn't want to bring up some of the politics around using non-academic considerations for college entrance, e.g. race, but the single strongest argument for it is that those who benefited from it are more likely to be among the top post-collegiate performers (also they give back more in alumni donations).

That is especially true with alumni who played a major sport at a major university. Those who take their academics seriously and accomplish that near-impossible feat while competing at the highest level of athletics are motherfucking superstars when it comes to life and business. It's not very hard to see why, since successful people tend to be:

  1. Well educated, so that their brains have been honed for the high-level thinking it takes to recognize opportunities
  2. Well connected, and
  3. Highly motivated.

So picture a guy who just completed a business degree at Michigan who is recognized by 10,000,000 people in the U.S. and has a strong connection with, e.g., the former CEO of Dominos, and has the kind of motivation it takes to start for Michigan for two or three years.

The flipside of that equation are the kids who don't take school seriously, and the schools who don't either. EVERYBODY wants Da'Shawn Hand, but you increase your chances of success if you can put, say, Dee Liner, or  on the same depth chart.

Alabama is willing to take Dee, and pretend they didn't see the gazillion loopholes Dee used to get technically elgible, and has no interest in giving Dee any more than the appearance of an education that's enough to satisfy the NCAA's capricious rules meant to give them the appearance that they're not just a pro league that found a clever way around paying market price for its labor. And Dee is fine with this arrangement so long as Alabama a) finds a way to get around the rules and pay him anyway for his trouble, and b) develops him into an NFL prospect. And Saban is willing to go through lots of Dee Liners, since he knows half of them won't be able to hack even that bare appearance of education, and a certain number of talented players will always just not be able to improve enough to compete at a high level in college, and if that happens he won't have to carry Dee's scholarship or roster spot.

That's the sort of shit we want out of college athletics. There's nothing wrong with being Dee; there's something wrong with pretending like Dee and Da'shawn are playing college football for the same reasons. Michigan especially wants this hypocrisy to end because we are a school that could never take a Dee Liner and lost Da'shawn Hand in part because of that. College football should be serious about academically minded athletes, and there should be a pro minor league for athletes who aren't.

If you don't create a viable pro option, all you're doing is taking away the opportunity for many athletes to develop into NFL players because of something that has little to do with being an NFL player. You're also making it near impossible to regulate, since there's such a wealth of wins and dollars and happy alumni to be had by tapping all those Cardale Joneses and having them "play school." Baseball and hockey have very strong minor league systems, and also very exciting college teams (regionally at least).

What's standing in the way is the NCAA profits a LOT from having a monopoly on out-of-high school talent, and they're not willing to give up those dollars for something as silly as the nominal core values of the NCAA. I mean, if you were to name 10 of the most corrupt ADs in the last 20 years, Mark Emmert is like four of them, and he's the guy running the NCAA. This is how fucked it is.

OneFootIn

January 9th, 2014 at 1:06 PM ^

I am 100% in agreement with the Mgoblog staff about the growing unsustainability of the current football system that more and more looks like just another example of crony capitalism.

It has been hard for me to come to the decision that things have to change because I, again like everyone here, am so totally in love with this thing called college football.

However, I come to a 180 degree different conclusion about the right solution. Universities should pay professors to teach students. They should never, ever, pay students to perform athletic feats for the public. This violates everything good about the ideals of the university. I am a professor - I have lived my whole life within the (to me) wonderful academic world and I believe I understand in my bones something about what makes universities special places. One of the most important things that separates universities from the rest of the shitty corporate world is the very notion of profit. Universities are the best places to learn, to think, and to share our world's most important truths because they are insulated from the need to bow down to money. As soon as universities start worrying too much about money, bad things happen - including the BCS, the bowl system, and our current mess in D-1 sports.

Thus, I reluctantly have come to the conclusion that we need to roll back the clock and stop giving people scholarships to play sports. Instead, students should be admitted to school, and then they should play sports. Will this degrade the quality of football and basketball at the D-1 level? Yes, absolutely. But guess what - I live and die by my daughter's travel soccer team - it doesn't really matter how "good" Michigan is - it only matters that they're Michigan.

Go Blue