Tuesday Recruitin' Reasons With Mob
Return Of The Three-Star Mafia
So, about the reaction to Carter Dunaway's commitment. I realize Michigan is trying to pull its way out of a nearly decade-long stretch in which "trust the coaches" went from sage advice to, well, a reason to run away screaming in terror. I realize expectations for Jim Harbaugh are ample. I realize adding a sophomore tight end with one catch and no film may not align with some of those expectations.
All of that said, the zeal with which some commenters here questioned the choice to offer and accept the commitment of Dunaway caught me off guard.* There's obvious potential—he's got the frame to come to campus in the 6'6", 260-pound range. He's got two full years of high school left, and he won't be playing behind a pair of seniors—one a D-I recruit himself—any longer. The legacy angle shouldn't be the first reason to offer him, but it also shouldn't be discounted; as an early 2017 commit, Dunaway can now start recruiting other prospects with a perspective few other recruits have on the program. There's also the whole human decency thing, but this is the internet, which requires a detailed argument in favor of acting human before that'll be taken under consideration.
I'll go ahead and post the thoughts of one specific commenter who jumped into the discussion last night: Craig Dunaway, Carter's father and a former tight end under Bo Schembechler, who handled it all with more grace than anyone could reasonably expect.
As the least objective person on the board...
It's been quite an experience reading these comments.
I thank those who've shared kind and welcoming words (YoOoBoLloBaugh, True Blue Grit, The Mad Hatter, et al.). And I appreciate those who acknowledge he still has two more years of high school to show more tangible merits (True Blue Grit, bronxblue).
I also like the comments from HateSparty. (Or maybe I just like typing HateSparty. HateSparty.)
I understand those who doubt and question an offer to unproven talent (Danwillhor, The J Davis 1, pescadero). I realize you only have the best interests of the program in mind.
To those who attribute Carter's offer to his legacy status (HarBooYa, Big Mike), I hope you realize that's just not the case. If that's all it took, brother Jack wouldn't be dipping into his 529 plan, as WolvinLA2 also points out.
And to those concerned about the dearth of offers, please understand if Carter didn't love Michigan so much, he would've looked around and collected who knows how many others. Instead, he's avoiding the strain of the recruiting process, staying close to home and going to school with his brother.
The truth is there aren't a whole lot of 6'6-1/2" 233# 16-year-old kids who can run and catch out there. And that happens to be exactly the type of kid Jim and Jay Harbaugh want playing TE.Sure, Carter's lucky he's so big. He knows that. One of the first things he said after getting the offer is that it didn't seem fair he would be offered and his brother wouldn't, even after all Jack has accomplished.He's lucky to have camped at Michigan, and had so much exposure to the program while his brother was being recruited. But he also knows that means he's got to work harder now than ever before. He's got a target on his back that opponents and even Michigan fans will see every time he takes the field. It will only make him better.If you haven't met Carter or seen him play, I hope you get that chance soon. If not in the next 2 years, then in 2017 or 18, or whenever he gets to enjoy the privilege of playing for the greatest team in college football.Go Blue Forever
I'm not here to say the coaches are infallible, or that Carter Dunaway is a sure-fire All-American, or that there isn't a proper way to express dissenting opinions around here. There is, however, a time and a place, not to mention a certain amount of tact involved, and many of yesterday's comments—some of which have been cleared out by now—were disappointing in that light.
Anyway, Dunaway is in the class, and I expect this commitment will be questioned a whole lot less once he's showcased his ability on film. (People got really angry about this commitment without ever actually seeing the kid play. Which... yeah.) Brother Rice head coach David Sofran told The Wolverine's Brandon Brown that in addition to being a "coach's dream," Dunaway has plenty of potential and will be a critical part of their offense this fall ($):
"He's the type of talent that you can center your offense around. He's very athletic. He has really soft hands and catches the ball well. He can really accelerate after he catches it. I think that will separate him from a lot of tight ends. Once he catches it he can really run. Paul Jokisch (former Michigan wide receiver and Brother Rice standout) was like that. He was a huge guy (6-8, 239 pounds) that could catch and run and I think Carter will be in that conversation." ...
"I think he's probably still growing," he said. "I think once he stops growing taller he'll really start to fill out in his upper body and I think he'll keep his athleticism and be fast at about 255-260 in college down the line. He's still got some growing to do and I think he will get bigger and be even more of a problem."
Welcome to the program, Carter, and thanks for your understanding, Craig.
*Yes, I realize I should know better by now.
[Hit THE JUMP for the rest of the roundup.]
Gary, Bush Jr. Set For Return Unofficials
The #1 overall prospect in the 2016 class, Paramus (NJ) Catholic DT Rashan Gary, took an unofficial visit to Ann Arbor in March. Now The Wolverine's Tim Sullivan reports Gary will be back on campus in May, accompanied by his mother:
Five-star DT @RashanGary33 plans to return to Ann Arbor next month, this time with his mother: https://t.co/j15rCxalD9
— Tim Sullivan (@TimS_Wolverine) April 21, 2015
Tim, who's been more skeptical than others regarding Michigan's chances with Gary, is "really coming around" on their odds after speaking with Gary and his mother. Paying his way for a second unofficial visit is a really good sign. Michigan also continues to pursue other Paramus Catholic prospects: they offered three-star 2016 WR Donald Stewart and four-star 2017 LB Drew Singleton last week.
Gary isn't the only top out-of-region prospect planning a second unofficial. 247's Steve Lorenz reports that four-star FL OLB Devin Bush Jr. is set to visit on June 14th along with teammate and fellow offer recipient Devin Gil, a three-star safety currently committed to Miami (YTM). While most expect Bush to end up at Florida State, he had a very positive visit experience the first time around, and it's apparent Michigan is under serious consideration.
The Terrance Davis Recruitment Is Going Well
Four-star MD OG Terrance Davis earned an invite to The Opening over the weekend, but most of all he'd really like you to check out those shorts (and his mom's hat, too):
BLESSED . Peep the shorts pic.twitter.com/5do78e9zmo
— R.I.P. MARY (@THEGIF7) April 20, 2015
Davis spoke to 247's Sean Fitz over the weekend and told him which four school are currently after him the hardest:
"I really think I'm gonna cut my list down right before my senior season. I am going to take all of my officials and decide after that," Davis said. "I'd say the four schools after me hardest are Alabama, Tennessee, Michigan and UCLA."
According to 247's Barton Simmons, Michigan is the team to beat, and they have Davis' mother in their corner.
New Offers
Michigan hosted three-star Lakewood (OH) St. Edward CB Tony Butler for a visit prior to the spring game, and on Monday they came through with an offer for the Pitt commit. Butler told 247's Steve Wiltfong that he'll make a return visit soon, and the presence of his former coach on campus is a draw for Michigan ($):
Committed to Pittsburgh since March, the 6-foot-2, 195-pound Butler was offered by Michigan on Monday, where his former coach Rick Finotti is now working in an off-field role for the Wolverines.
"I mean he's been a big part of my life so he's definitely going to have an impact," Butler said when asked if that would help Michigan's chances.
Butler sounds like he's wrestling with the decision; the return visit, should it happen, would be a very good sign.
The Wolverines offered four-star IL DE Daniel Joseph, per Brandon Brown. Iowa and Michigan State are a couple offers standing out for him early. Three-star GA OLB Ja'Quain Blakely, who's still not close to narrowing his recruitment, also picked up an offer.
The coaches made a move for one of the top in-state prospects in the 2017 class, offering Detroit King ATH Ambry Thomas, who told Sam Webb that he'll be on campus soon as part of an in-state junior day of sorts ($):
“Coach Jedd (Fisch) came in the school,” said Thomas. “I was actually kind of excited because I wasn’t expecting a huge offer like that at this moment. My mom and my father were really excited because they weren’t expecting it either.”
The fact that Thomas comes from a family of Michigan fans made just added to the satisfaction. Now he has his sights set on a late May visit to Ann Arbor for a special recruiting day set aside for the top in-state prospects in 2017.
“We just confirmed that they want me to come down May 30th or May 31st.” stated Thomas. “My mom already confirmed (the visit). She loves the school.”
Thomas also holds offers from Cincinnati, Illinois, Iowa, and Pitt.
Four-star 2017 TX TE Kedrick James was "speechless" when he received his Michigan offer, per Lorenz ($). As a Waco native with a Baylor offer, James won't be an easy pull from Texas, but his recruitment is at least off to a good start. Michigan also offered 2017 four-star CA WR/TE Taariq Johnson, per GBW's Kyle Bogenschutz ($).
Etc.
Michigan made the top 13 for four-star PA TE Naseir Upshur, and the general consensus has the Wolverines near—or perhaps at—the top of that list.
Four-star MD OT Devery Hamilton told 247's Ryan Bartow that Michigan, Wisconsin, and Stanford are the three schools currently standing out to him ($). Offered by the previous staff, Hamilton has built a strong relationship with Tim Drevno, and he plans to visit campus this summer.
Four-star TX DT Jordan Elliott has strong interest in Michigan, Florida State, and USC after decommitting from Baylor earlier this month, per Scout's Gerard Martinez ($). USC is the current leader.
After a good visit there, Utah joined Michigan and UCLA in the top group for three-star CA OT Alex Akingbulu, per Rivals' Adam Gorney ($).
Happy trails to 2017 Akron RB Todd Sibley, who committed to Ohio State in a move that surprised nobody.
I think it's beyond stupid to criticize commitments for kids with 2 years of HS left to go. Just have an ounce of patience and see how things go.
More pertinantly, it's OK to criticize a COACH or a STAFF or a TEAM or even a CLASS, but not an individual kid. You can say that the recruiting class is off to a rough start/closing poorly/etc without criticizing a kid who is coming to Michigan to work his tail off. This kind of thing contributes to a "muggles" us/them divide, instead of a one-of-us community.
I don't see much value in celebrating every commitment, that just seems brainless to me. Some commitments clearly reflect a recruiting LOSS. But, it's important to remember that some losses (e.g., Caris LeVert, Jake Ryan) end up as wins in the long run.
Anyway, my point is there is a way of saying things tactfully (like, addressing Hatch's medical scholarship without criticizing anyone's basketball skills/limitations or NBA potential, OR addressing your doubts about a legacy backup by raising questions about Harbaugh's recruiting relative to say Meyer or Kelly instead of pointing out any perceived lack in ability in a teenager).
And I think that's why none of my posts were removed yesterday. I was never criticizing the kid. I was questioning the staff on their offer. I think there is a huge difference. I also don't agree with the crowd that says "you can't question the coaches, they know more than you do."
That might be true, but if we could never question anyone in their profession, second opinion doctor appointments would never happen. We would never switch Financial Advisors because we wouldn't be able to question their trades, investments etc. etc.
I am happy for the kid. He gets to live his dream at the University of Michigan. That is great. Hopefully it all pans out and U-M football can be a winner again.
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
Start another thread to talk about it. Don't let the kid or his father come to the board and the first thing they read are posts implying they are not wanted. Your post may have been more diplomatic than some but I think there were better places for it to be posted. By posting it in that thread you are in effect singling out one recruit.
Would creating a new topic with the sole purpose of discussing the merits of a kid being offered not be even worse ?
I'm pretty sure far fewer people pay attention to the board compared with main page posts.
And I will get on board with the Hello: Celebratory posts and leave the questioning of coaches to other threads.
Gucci: we won't start threads to discuss certain kids. We will start threads to discuss our coaching thoughts. We should basically have a "Coaching: snowflakes" thread weekly even in the offseason.
Do you really want him playing Big Ten football at the University of Michigan? He's going to get a lot worse than a blog poster questioning the coach's offer to him when he walks into 106,000 at The Horseshoe.
I guess you can consider me in the Larry Foote "Michigan has too many nice guys on the team" corner.
So now you've abandoned your claim that your posts were not insulting to the recruit in question, and instead you're saying we should insult the recruits to weed out the "sensitive" ones? Rather than speculating about the sensitivity of recruits, how about if we focus on our own behavior as -- giving us all the benefit of the doubt -- mature, responsible adults deciding whether to pass (anonymous and unaccountable) judgment on a high school kid's ability to play football despite our lack of information and qualifications to do so?
did anything I say lead you to make an analysis that "we should insult recruits?" My entire argument has been, I (not speaking for all negative posters on his committment post), was not insulting the kid and never would.
I simply questioned Harbaugh's reasoning for the offer 22 months before NSD (and I will continue to question any move that is questionable from any coach or adminstrator at the University of Michigan. I mean, that is what we as fans are allowed and obligated to do. We're here to support the team and sensibly question the decisions we don't agree with. That's what I did, and respectfully, will continue to do.
April 22nd, 2015 at 10:02 PM ^
"This is like me saying "I'm not insulting you, JDavis, I'm just telling my sister she shouldn't date anyone like you because she can do way better." I'm only critiquing my sister, right?"
Well, you know, if JDavis was the first guy your sister ever dated, then I think it's only fair to see what else is out there in the world. So again, I don't think it's really an insult to JDavis. It's simply that your sister doesn't know him that well and might want to ask around before she lets JDavis come over to her apartment.
I am fully on board with the hiring of Jim Harbaugh and don't disagree with any of his decisions.
I do believe, however, that the offering of this young man, so early in his high school career, is based on him being seen as a legacy recruit. Really, there is no body of objective evidence, other than that, to indicate he has earned that offer.
That doesn't mean I think he is not a worthy choice. I like the idea of legacy recruits, but I also believe it can be two-edged sword. How do you think this choice will be seen by other TE prospects who are underclassmen in high school and who have dreams of earning the opportunity to be offered by UofM? Do you think they'll see some sort of nepotism is this? I do.
While I believe it is a little early to offer this young man, I am pleased to welcome him to the UofM. Also, I can see him turning all of this controversy into motivation to prove to everyone he deserved the offer. Good luck to him!
April 22nd, 2015 at 11:47 AM ^
"Really, there is no body of objective evidence, other than that, to indicate he has earned that offer."
That statement is patently FALSE. The kid has camped at U-M, has coaches who have seen him practice and play, and has played in JV games. Just because he doesn't have film that's publicly available or a high school stat sheet doesn't mean there is no objective evidence to indicate that he has earned the offer.
Here is a correct statement: "I can't find any objective evidence on the internet to indicate that he has earned the offer. Therefore, I will assume there was no reason other than his legacy status, despite the fact that his brother did not recieve an offer an is paying his way, and despite the fact that his coaches and our coaches do have knowledge of him. I will make that assumption because I am entitled to an opinion about everything that happens no matter how it makes a kid feel or how it might affect our football program."
Do you want to be the guy saying that last statement? That's what this board should be asking itself.
Get real man. The amount of information on how this young man performed as a TE is very, very limited. If you think JV experience counts for anything, I have no interest in any further dialogue with you. Furthermore, I seriously doubt this young man would disagree with that assessment. I'm also sure my comments are not going to make him feel bad about himself. Personally, I feel like Harbaugh and his staff could have waited for another year before making him an offer without a serious risk of losing him to some other school. But, like I said, I welcome him aboard and hope his varsity play shows the early offer was warranted.
" Some commitments clearly reflect a recruiting LOSS"
To believe this requires a level of cynacism that even I can't reach, and I'm like, a huge cynic... sheesh
Which Bill Barnwell at Grantland often notes when it comes to NFL moves. Posters who poo-poo such offers seemingly think that the opportunity cost of taking a guy who might be at the low end of the star scale means a slot for the five-star is taken. I don't believe that, and I don't think the staff does either. We've seen the four and five star busts here and three stars become legends. Perspective is needed.
Right. It's not cynical to recognize that scholarships are limited. In every sport Michigan targets the 5-star blue chip recruits it would love to have. Sometimes they land them, usually they don't and move on to Plan B, C, D and so on. Examples where this works out are plentiful, but in the case of Michigan Basketball in 2014, the team would have been a lot more successful if they landed Booker, Looney, Blackmon (all guys they had a shot with). Like it or not, for an elite program taking 3-star prep school kids with offers from nobody else of note is a recruiting loss. It may pan out in the end (Michigan wanted other kids more than they wanted Trey Burke) but it's still a loss at the time.
Opportunity cost implies there is another option that is not selected. That would be like if there were a 5* TE who wanted to choose Michigan and we turned them away in favor of Dunaway.
April 22nd, 2015 at 12:05 PM ^
If you want to assume M always gets the best player available that's pretty optimistic. It also ignores the fact that a scholarship is typically going to take up 4 years, so a three-star now is preventing M from having a shot/spot for a future 4 or 5 star.
Another way of looking at is relative to your competition. If M is landing a 3 star while MSU and OSU and Indiana land 5-star we are likely to fall behind those schools. Part of Wisconsin's success the last couple years comes from them having a 5-star in Dekkar. That elevates a good well-coached team from being a tough out to being a final four contender, just as McGary and Robinson did for Michigan.
I'm pretty sure respect has been in style for a while now. I don't think being polite to a stranger is a sign of weakness. A 'real' man would understand that. Being a stubborn asshole does not make you one.
So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people not to be dicks at his hello post.
While I think that "trusting the coach" can be a copout, at the same time it's ridiculous to criticize Harbaugh for recruiting someone that you don't like. Two years is a long time and lots of things could happen. Carter Dunaway could get injured and drop football, or decide to play somewhere else. Or he could develop into a legitimate four or five-star recruit.
I'd also add that even if an occasional player is a flyer I wouldn't be so concerned. The overall strength of Harbaugh's recruiting classes is going to determine his success at Michigan (along with how well he and his staff develop them). If a particular player does not pan out, but most of his teammates do, I'm not going to worry about it. It happened under Bo, it happens under Saban (why else would he use oversigning?) and it'll happen under Harbaugh.
This is not even remotely the equivalent of giving Carter Dunaway a participation trophy. This is Harbaugh getting a commitment from a kid who he thinks has a chance to be a good football player.
Yes, because "Real Men" whine and talk shit about things they know nothing about.....
April 21st, 2015 at 10:29 PM ^
"The everyone gets a trophy generation is here and everyone better play nice."
"As someone who played for Bo I expected more."
"Time to find out where the real men are hanging out on the internet."
I generally believe in judging a man by his actions, not his words. In your case I'll make an exception.
on the internet." Sounds good to me. Why don't you go somewhere else and find the type of men you're looking for. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
If someone is insulting a 16-year-old recruit who has just committed, I don't think they belong here. Besides, it really comes off as stupid to celebrate Harbaugh and then doubt his process when it comes to recruiting. If Jim Harbaugh sees something in a kid, that's good enough for me.
On the subject of legacies, I think it's negligence when a staff doesn't recruit them. If all things are equal, the legacy recruit is probably going to be better than the outsider because of his love and respect for the program. I would prefer to see any legacy who is getting bona fide offers from other schools have a chance to play at Michigan.
You can like or celebrate a coach without liking every decision they make. Harbaugh's done some questionable things already IMO - doesn't mean I don't think he's the best coach on the planet for Michigan.
If Michigan recruited every legacy they would have a team full of them and the program would wither and die. This is silly. Some legacies don't even end up playing D1 sports. I mean, I get what you are saying, but obviously you draw the line somewhere.
Personally, I see any critique of Michigan's offer to Dunaway as a criticism of the coaches more than Dunaway himself. There are tens of thousands of football players in each class who never get offers from big-time schools, so saying "Michigan should hold off on offering him until he plays" is not really an insult.
I didn't see a lot of people hating on Dunaway. They were criticizing the decision to offer him, which is a different thing, IMO.
April 21st, 2015 at 10:11 PM ^
But the Dunaways may not see it that way. (Or the next recruit.)
April 22nd, 2015 at 11:14 AM ^
That's a cop out. They may not expressly say "this kid sucks." But by criticizing the coach because for offering him, and accepting the commitment, you're not only implying "this kid sucks" but you're implying it as an assumed fact that the coach doesn't seem to understand.
April 22nd, 2015 at 10:08 PM ^
It's not an insult to the kid. You can plug in any name, height, genealogy, etc. It doesn't matter who it is.
The fact is that the kid has not played much, has 1 catch to his name, and has no highlights to speak of.
This is literally something I have NEVER seen before. I have never seen the University of Michigan offer a kid with less (publicly available) playing experience than Carter Dunaway. I have kept offer boards and tracked THOUSANDS of recruits over the past several years, and I have not even once seen something like this where a borderline JV/varsity player gets offered, let alone commits.
This is not the norm, so I don't see why people are surprised that it has people scratching their heads. For all I know, Carter Dunaway might be the next Jimmy Graham. He could also be the next Jordan Paskorz. Jim Harbaugh knows more than any of us do. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a strange occurrence.
of our favorite sports teams, but I didn't really understand the uproar about Dunaway. He's a 2017 kid with a good pedigree and a great frame. There is a ton of time for him to develop into a top tier recruit and the potential to do just that.
Compare that to the Greg Davis commit where I saw a lot more reason to question the move given the scarcity of available scholarships in 2016, the seeming redunandcy with Teske and the underwhelming profile. Those concerns may be mitigated if, as some suggest will happen and Davis takes a prep year before joining in the 2017 class.
...anything else is just being an asshole.
If you don't like the commit, just don't say anything - that usually speaks volumes to those who pay attention. Just don't post at all.
the bullshit. There are so many hate-mongers on here, so much weak palaver. This place is getting buried. I wasn't joking the other day when I said that the collective IQ here has fallen drastically.
I'm glad you've become more successfull; lord knows you deserve it. But some of this stuff, including some of the ways women are getting talked about. . . are pretty dreadful. It's definitely degrading the overall experience. Hell, over at umhoops we're dismayed at the level of criticism of John Beilein. But here it's just become something of a kind you might expect from some bad party school.
Hope that if other people feel this way they'll chime in. I don't think that curbing some of the worst of this loses you a single click. And I don't think that you should refrain from candid assessment of player performance. But I do think there's a serious risk that coaches and the institution start seeing the site--posters, at least--as something of a liability. If I am a member of friend of Austin Davis's family, for example, I am not take too kindly now or any time in the near future.
I have been reading this site for years, and it is painful to sit here and see some of the hate these people on here share about Michigan when I myself have loved the university and its teams since I was little. I mean I get as a fan that the past couple years have been rough but that gives nobody the right to bash a kid for choosing a school when he was offered a scholarship.
I think a number of people on the Blog will type shit just to get a rise out of people or they think their opinions are better than the rest of ours - not a majority of folks, mind you... just a small number of them. But its enough to make a difference to outsiders reading the Blog.
Regardless, I feel like some people feel they have little to be afraid of while spouting off...
I'm really resisting the temptation to make the obvious joke in this situation...
I wish there were some way to code the MGoBoard software so that when a commenter submits a reply on a recruiting post, the equivalent of a "WATCH THIS AD BEFORE VIDEO PLAYS" interstitial popped up reminding the commenter that they're talking about a high school kid making one of the most important decisions he'll ever make; that we have a tiny fraction of a percent of understanding about this kid's life and situation and does the commenter really, really want to continue with their planned post?
Are you sure?
No, seriously, are you really sure?
Would you post this if he were reading over your shoulder?
How about if his mother were sitting next to you?
Preach.
I totally agree. I've only been reading since 2010, but since the board has become a popular source of Michigan sports news for even the casual fan the quality of posters has gone down. Way more flamebaiting, player hating, and just not great stuff in general. Also the amount of clumsily wedged in gifs really waters down the comment sections.
But hey, I'm with Brian and the squad no matter what they decide to do.
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