Picture Pages: Cut It Up, Tate
Yet another in this site's series "counters to the scrape exchange."
This one doesn't take a whole lot of explanation. Michigan's in its H-back set and Notre Dame in the nickel it used all day. It's first and ten on Michigan's field-goal drive right before halftime:
Michigan's going to run something I called a "QB counter"; it, I believe, is not a read but a called QB run. Just like the dive play we saw yesterday, the TE (in this case Martell Webb) is going to pull across the formation and look for a block. LT Mark Ortmann, the topmost offensive lineman, is going to downblock on the weakside defensive tackle. But you'll do fine on this play if you just watch #80. He's the whole play.
Here we have a moment right before the key part of the play. Forcier has pulled the ball out of Minor's belly and Webb is approaching the point at which he's supposed to block the defensive end.
So Webb reaches the DE and… uh… runs right by him.
Here note two things. One: Ortmann has not done a great job with the DT, who has apparently read the play or was stunting or something and has shot into the backfield. This held the defensive end up. Normally on a scrape he'd be hauling ass after Minor, but since he got delayed he's right there and sees Forcier with the ball. Two: Webb ignored that guy and is heading right for the scraper. Tate has to deal with the DE.
Next, the moment of truth:
One: Forcier has beaten the defensive end despite the screwup/stunt by Notre Dame. This is MAKING PLAYS, and something it's doubtful either Threet or Sheridan could have pulled off. Two: Webb has blocked the scraper. Crushed him.
Forcier, well…
look at all that space
nooooooooo cut it up cut it up
…dangit.
Object lessons:
- This is another scrape counter. This one didn't go very well for whatever reason and it still should have been 8-10 yards because Michigan has blocked the one guy tasked with the quarterback.
- Assuming your guy with the quarterback isn't going to get blocked can be dangerous for the defense. The scrape read presumes that your guy tasked with the QB isn't going to get lit up by a tight end, and it's hard to see any way to read what's going on to help out. The only player who can be of assistance is the backside DE, and that pulling tight end can do so many different things—block the scraper, block you and spring Brandon Minor up the middle, head out into the flat, pass block—that you're really picking your poison.
- I don't think it matters what side the guy gets blocked on… usually. Here Webb gets outside of the scraper and that's key because of the defensive end's presence, but if that guy's not there it makes no difference because Tate will be jetting up into massive space on either side of the block.
- Rodriguez's offseason planning was hugely focused on the TE. This was something we talked about in UFR, but it's worth repeating. There was a lot of hype about Michigan's tight ends and that hype has been more than met. A TE is on the field 90% of the time and has been a huge key in Michigan's ground game. Rodriguez has adapted to the scrape exchange and his counter is the tight end. At this point I'm actually a little concerned Michigan doesn't have a tight end in the recruiting class.
- Tate needs to realize he's no longer way more athletic than everyone on the field. He's done this three or four time in his first two games. It worked against Western, but not so much here.
This ended up being three yards, but it should have been ten, and holy God what if Denard Robinson was out there in that kind of space?
UPDATE: forgot the youtube-o-vision:
FWIW, Jeremy Jackson is projected by most recruiting services as a TE once he gets to Michigan. Jackson has the frame to bulk up to be a decent receiving tight end.
i vote outside on this play, inside on most others, odoms gets a block he is gone,
I sent this email to Brian -
On the picture captioned "look at all that space" do you think Tate saw potential blockers instead. After seeing the great pics and video on your site, I think I've changed my opinion on the play. When I saw it game day, and in replay, I kept thinking the same thing - why not up the f'n middle! But now I see that pic, then I watch the video, and I cannot help but to believe he saw Odoms, and was expected a block. Stonum mad his block, and Odoms epically failed to throw a block. Oh the what if...
Would love to know what you think. Keep up the great work and thanks for the daily addiction.
Bobby Sanders
(no, not THAT Bobby Sanders...)
===============
What do you guys think? I would to ask Tate. I think he saw Odoms, and if the block would have been there, we'd be discussing a another magnificent play rather than a missed opportunity.
watch the film three times, Odoms didn't even attempt a block. Sigh! Wish see more Grady there, or Carlos Brown lined up as slot. Odoms is not the answer.
As a (former) HS football coach, I'd prefer a QB try to take the outside if he's unsure of his blocks. Backside pursuit is farther away, and it gives him the option to avoid a major shot. Also, officiating tends to be much friendlier to a QB vs a defender on the sideline than, say, between the hashes.
Tate may not win the Heisman this year, but before he leaves Michigan he will have one. This kid can play! He is cerebral, has ice in his veins, is unselfish, and seems to be having fun while doing it. Tate Forcier will improve and he will win at Michigan. He could, dare I say it, win a National Championship for Michigan.
Victors Valiant '88
I like Tate's Heisman pose in Picture #7.
need a close up of that
get to view the replay before he makes his decision either at full speed or in slow motion? How long does he have to sit at his desk and decide? Does he have a camera angle from the top of the stadium or only at field level?
Obvious answers are zero, about a tenth of a second, and only field level. Even if we could agree (and the readership does not) after watching the tape 4 times that cutting it up was the correct choice, I don't think any of us can quibble with his decision on this one given the inputs he had and the time he had to choose.
I hate to dig up the corpse as soon as we laid it to rest, but I'm again confused about the strongside/weakside distinction. Some very helpful comments from posters yesterday offered the general rule of thumb that the side to the left or right of the center with the most offensive personnel = the strong side. Typically, this would be the side where the TE has lined up.
In this case, although Webb has lined up on the right side of the field (as a H Back), I count 5 hats to the left of center, 4 hats to the right of center, with Tate presumably directly behind center in the gun. From this, I would conclude the left side (top portion of the screen) is the strong side, and the right (bottom portion of the screen) is the weak side.
Ortmann blocks the DT shaded to the left of center, which my third-grade understanding of formations has taken to be the strong side of the field. Brian identifies this DT as the weak side DT, causing me to doubt my new rubrics.
Is it more accurate to say the side on which the TE lined up will always be the strong side? Please educate my struggling brain.
"Gentlemen, this is a football."
- Vince Lombardi
is the strong side
As I look at the pictures and the full speed video, if Tate cuts it up the middle there are three unblocked defenders who will close that lane and fast. It looks like Tate sees more potential for lead blocks around the corner. If our #9 blocks their #8...then Tate is gone for 10...or more...
Go Blue!
While I agree that there were occasions where Tate should have cut up, he was going to get drilled if he did so - a gain of 5-6 at most. If he goes outside and Odoms makes the block he might be gone. So yeah, I disagree with The Leader on this particular play, but not in general.
coach rod gives the 90 second review of what Tate (Pat here) is reading... Spread for Dummies if you will
"we teach our quarterbacks to read from the safety down..."
must-see-tv
At this point I'm actually a little concerned Michigan doesn't have a tight end in the recruiting class.
Hopefully Alex Smith (the 4 star TE prospect who decomitted from Cincy) has been watching. I think Koger has already exceeded his season totals for receptions from last year, and Webb has also been getting a few looks.
We can't run. We can't pass. We can't stop the run. We can't stop the pass. We can't kick. Other than that, we're just not a very good football team right now. - Bruce Coslet
regardless of whether hs should have bounced it outside or not, as a general principle from what we have seen is that he does not have the speed to make that play to the outside consistently and he will get more yardage cutting it up over the long haul.
We can't run. We can't pass. We can't stop the run. We can't stop the pass. We can't kick. Other than that, we're just not a very good football team right now. - Bruce Coslet
He would beat the angle and run by him with a WR left to block anybody who is after him(namely #22, forget his name). It could be a TD for him.
who was the user who said that we could forget about TEs because RR never used them before?
lloyd was better.
Didn't or isn't he switching to TE?
THAT, my friends, is why rodriguez isn't a good coach but a GREAT coach. at his last stop, he rarely if ever used the tight end, to the point where we didn't worry about tight end recruiting when he first got here.
now, a year on, he is blessed with tight end talent, and he's not only using it in a perfunctory way, but as a major (and absolutely integral) part of the offense. the man adapts and uses the weapons he has as well as any coach i've ever seen.
we are so fucking lucky to have this guy.
Hard to criticize Tate after that performance, but this is one play where he was trying to do more than he can. He's not big or fast enough to make it past the defender and around that corner, so he got...what 3 yards? He could have gotten 6+ if he'd gone inside. But what's interesting to me is that I think he figured this out during the game. On the TD run, he cut inside and went straight ahead.
When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing. -Bo
If Forcier cuts it up the middle he risks getting blown up by the safety at around the 31 yard line (about a 5 yard gain). I'd rather he bounce outside than risk getting decapitated. Plus, as has been already pointed out, if Odoms makes his block, this is around a 10 yard gain.
The safety can't come up hard because Forcier has so much space. If he charges at Tate he's risking a big play if he takes the wrong angle or gets juked. You'll see that guy fill at 5-6 yards at best and then chances are Tate either makes him miss or gets tackled such that he falls forward.
Also, I don't know if Odoms' block is particularly easy, since he's not sure where the DB is going and there's a lot of space here. Tate should take the yards. Denard can try to hit home runs.
MGoBlog | Sporting News | HTTV 2009 | e
and one LB, and what looks to be one other player. If Tate can get 10 yards by turning up field on this particular play then he is a true Jedi Master. Regardless, I'm sure there's probably a better example of what you're trying to show in some other play during this game, because Forcier tried to bounce it outside quite a bit. I don't think this is the best example.
Dude... come on guys. in shot #5, Tate is at the line of scrimmage moving forward at considerable speed and the two ND safeties are flat-footed ten yards downfield. For this not to be 8-10 yards the safeties would have to move as fast as Tate is over the next five yards when they are not at speed, which they would absolutely not do because that's a great way to miss a tackle entirely. In shot 6, both safeties are still ten yards downfield and Tate is a yard past the LOS. He would be three yards past the LOS if he wasn't trying to go outside. The best possible situation for ND if Tate takes it straight upfield is that #22 sets up 6-7 yards downfield and makes an excellent open-field tackle. More likely he gets blocked by Minor and it's a first down.
MGoBlog | Sporting News | HTTV 2009 | e
I beg to differ, Brian. It looks like a hole, but it isn't. There are three unblocked defenders turned towards him and closing in. There should have been a block on the outside if the wideout had been paying attention...what they call in hockey "playing without the puck." All #9 needs to do is make some contact with him and Tate may have gone to the house...It was the right read.
Go Blue!
I'll agree to disagree on what would have happened if Forcier cut it up the middle.
I do wonder if Forcier is instructed to not cut it up the middle unless he sees something he really likes. Obviously, Forcier is going to run with a little more caution than our RBs.
If Tate cuts it up immediately, he essentially has Minor as a lead wrecking ball of a blocker (frame 5). Because Tate tries to take the ball all the way outside, the DB now has a direct pursuit angle and doesn't have to take Minor head-on.
I do not agree. If he cuts it to his right, he has the d-line and LBs pursuing him -- all that space was going to close in a hurry. If he goes straight ahead, the safety is going to decapitate him. He didn't have much room to maneuver inside, and I think he might have gotten another two yards out of it at the risk of taking a big hit.
Agree that the Odoms block was not especially easy, but he probably could have done a little better.
It almost looks as if Odoms is looking for a potential pass. But if this is a run all the way, then he should have gone after the DB more aggressively. Instead he hesitates, and by the time he looks for the block, it's too late.
Cover coughs and sneezes.
Its a sure gain to run straight ahead, but a pretty good bet to get an equivalent gain on the outside with a shot at a huge gain mixed in. 2 blockers on 2 DBs leaves Tate 1-on-1 racing to the corner against the safety. They can meet 10 yards past the line of scrimmage on the outside or 6 on the inside.
It didn't work out on this play, but most times I'd rather see Tate take this run outside, though as a general rule I agree that he isn't going to run past BCS-caliber DBs too often.
My guess is that he saw the safety #22 in that lane, I am not sure that Drob could have made magic since a juke in that inside lane would have been into defenders. If you turn the corner, the DB is sitting there.
Honestly hard to say with the angle.
"not sure Drob could have made magic?" what, are you new here? he almost made magic on this play and he wasn't even on the field!
Yeah...that too... It would be better for the 180lb QB to go up against a corner on the outside, than cutting it up vs. a couple big LBs and a safety looking to take his head off, even if he slid.
The play is not looking so bad now....
Strictly business...Not personal.
good analysis Brian... despite these little mistakes, and a decent but not great OL... Michigan is still averaging over 200 yds per game the first 2 games (!)... this will only get better once some of these bumps are ironed out.
That is what is most encouraging about the offense...the scheme with even decent players is well above the old school scheme we used to run.
Strictly business...Not personal.
will be better in the future because there are OL who are more suited to play in RR's scheme than most of the current starters(except for Schilling at OG). Having the next two games would be helpful if Michigan can get off to a fast start and let the backup have experience(especially at OL like Omamaeh, Barnum, Khoury, etc) so they are ready to step in if needed or for next season when they replace some of the players like Hugye, Ortmann.
BTW... Good points below about Odoms missing his block... had he made his block, Tate has the sideline and may have been gone for 6. You can even see Odoms smack his hands in disgust after he knew that he shoulda had his block.
Strictly business...Not personal.
...and holy God what if Denard Robinson was out there in that kind of space?
This is what makes me excited for tomorrow's game. I hope we see Shoelace have a blast out there during his drives.
"Your ship may be coming in, You're weak but not giving in
To the cries and the wails of the valley below/
Your ship may be coming in, You're weak but not giving in.
And you'll fight it, you'll go out fighting all of them..."
I get Brian's general point about Forcier needing to cut it up, but in this case I think Forcier makes the correct read and it's Odoms who misses a block. Odoms completely whiffs. Walter Smith would have *crushed* him, getting Forcier to about the 28. at least.
On the plus side, dang I love that shot of Webb turning the corner and eyeing up the defender.
Wanting something to be true does not make it true.
he would be hit with a clipping penalty because Odom is facing defender with his back to Odoms to begin with.
anyone who references walter smith - AND notes that he was a blocking assassin - gets a +1 from me. nicely done.
Not sure which is Walter Smith (31 or 22) but it seems either of these guys would have crushed Tate had he broke it upfield. Tate starts upfield but the first guy (31) sees this and Tate is forced to cut back the other direction.
I wonder if Tate isn't told by the coaches that to take it outside rather than cut up the middle. I mean unless it is wide open, (his Cover 0 read - 31 yard TD), I dont' think you want your QB to get hit in the middle of the field potentially by multiple defenders at strange angles etc.
Plus when he does break it to the outside he has shown the ability to direct traffic and pass.
MGoBleu
I negged you for not knowing who Walter Smith is.
if you are going to Neg me you could tell me whether he is 31 or 22?
MGoBleu
played in the early 90s. a captain.
Don't recall, but didn't realize he was talking about a Michigan guy.
MGoBleu
Is it possible that the coaches are urging Tate to take it to the outside more often to prevent injury? Seems like it would be easier to get injured when tackled in the middle of the field than having the option of running out of bounds.
Getting shoved out by a corner seems a lot safer than being bent in half by a safety or linebacker. I believe that Sam McGuffie would agree with this sentiment.
I thought the same thing. I'd rather see Tate leave a few yards on the field in most situations in order to preserve his consciousness. Unless it's a key third down or the OSU game, we need dude healthy.