MGoPodcast 13.8: In Soviet Big Ten Quarterback Cyans You Comment Count

Seth October 25th, 2021 at 7:00 AM

1 hour and 21`minutes

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1. Offense

starts at 1:00

Brian has joined the Cade Haters, does not get the support he was expecting from Seth, who still hates no-read zone reads and trying to be a split zone team with a QB it doesn’t fit. Downfield accuracy was more about decisions not to throw guys open. Pre-snap reads are good but post-snap decisions are not. Is a fair quarterback. The running backs are stars—Colson might be Brian’s favorite of those he’s watched. Haskins showed us 1890s football. Erick All blocked. Guards…okay, but Zinter is missed.

[The rest of the writeup and the player after THE JUMP]

2. Defense

starts at 31:20

We start with the One Bad Thing because it’s the only score. Blamed that on Colson not funneling because they were replacing Ross with Hawkins, and on Moten eating a block for NO GOOD REASON. Good game from DJ Turner, who effectively passed Green? Screens breakdowns until they shadowed them Ross. DL rampant—no holds for Hutchinson though. What’s a guy gotta do?

3. Hot Takes, Special Teams, and Game Theory

starts at 46:04

They did block a punt, overwhelming the shield like the days of yore. Henning had one return, let one bounce to the two. Game theory: we wanted to go for it on the 4th and 2 because Northwestern isn’t having a two-minute drill from the 2 yard line so chances are you get a punt with 1:45 left and then get into field goal range again…if you don’t score a TD.

4. Around the Big Ten, wsg Jamie Mac

starts at 1:??:??

Winning QBs had no yards as the rushingest of the rushers won every game. The OT fest: Penn State got back their quarterback but he didn’t run downfield (turned down his one opportunity and took a sack). Really missed Mustipher since Illinois was plowing them with QB sneaks for 2 yards on every 3rd and 2 and 2nd and 2, and powering their way to big gains for both backs. Wisconsin has another vote for winner of a silly West. Minnesota-Maryland was standard Gopherball. Ohio State’s offense…let’s end it there shall we?

MUSIC:

  • “Congratulations”—MGMT
  • “The Balcony”—The Fruit Bats
  • “Work this Hard”—Caveman
  • “Across 110th Street”
THE USUAL LINKS:

You think WE hate passing? The Big Ten West is going to come down to Tanner Morgan, Spencer Petras, or Graham Mertz.

Comments

outsidethebox

October 25th, 2021 at 8:08 AM ^

Filiaga was the top-rated Michigan OL run-blocker. Barnhart was the top-rated Michigan OL pass-blocker. Nearly 300 yards rushing...70% completion rate with 1 sack. Next.

JonnyHintz

October 25th, 2021 at 5:21 PM ^

Eh, the 70% completion rate is less impressive when you add in the fact that it was for 5.1 yards per attempt (Cade was 4.8 ypa). Our yards per completion was 7.0 (Cade was at 6.45) so we basically dinked and dunked our way to 70% completions. Hit all the underneath stuff and missed everything over the top with very little intermediate passing to speak of. 
 

Good enough for the win when the running game is dominant, but still leaving much to be desired with the meat of the schedule still to play. There’s certainly more analysis we can do here.

JonnyHintz

October 26th, 2021 at 8:41 AM ^

In part. 7 yards per completion is a concern no matter what kind of defense your opponent is playing, even moreso when there’s a talent gap like there is between us and NW. 
 

Cade (and the play caller) are going to need to find a way to move the ball vertically up the field no matter how the opponent is playing you. Especially if we run into a wall in the running game and we HAVE to throw it. Dinking and dunking it down the field isn’t going to work without a running game. You basically turn into the Northwestern offense. 

Casanova

October 25th, 2021 at 8:13 AM ^

Comment retracted, I overreacted to what I saw OSU do to Indiana. 

 

EDITED: I’m sorry to you guys, I have been disrespectful, unbearably repetitive and solely focused on our date with OSU as if our team isn’t 7-0.

Not that it’s any excuse but I been dealing with some shit in my sector of the universe. 

My humble apologies.
 

 

JFW

October 25th, 2021 at 9:38 AM ^

I was at the game. I heard fans bitching because we had 2 runs for like 9 yards. Then we finally “throw the damn ball” and it’s incomplete. Nothing from them. 

Some people value style points over effectiveness. 

I had to explain to my son that JJ was a freshman and that the backup QB is always the most popular guy. 
What the hell. With my appreciation of “old fashioned ball control” I had an amazingly fun day with my son. 

Some people were just miserable at the beautiful day and commanding win because we didn’t do it the way they wanted. ???

ak47

October 25th, 2021 at 10:50 AM ^

I think you can both enjoy each game and win during the game while at the same time during the week analyze what it means going forward and being worried. This is especially true in games against clearly overmatched teams where winning is the expectation and how you do it is the most important part

Casanova

October 25th, 2021 at 11:00 AM ^

I agree, I saw from another thread that you share my concerns about our game theory going into OSU.
 

Namely, OSU penchant for putting up a quick 21, so that opposing team has to abandon the program. 
 

My mistake was I jump straight into “we’re are FUBAR and you are unbearably naive if you don’t agree” hole of dispair. 
 

Understandably, that made people react negatively. 

 

UM85

October 25th, 2021 at 1:52 PM ^

When is a 7-0 team going to get any respect?  OK, the schedule thus far may not have been the strongest  but they have beaten everyone in front of them.  And I know some Michigan fans have reservation about the coach.

But sheesh, Brady Hoke's San Diego State Aztecs are undefeated and ranked 21st in the country. Where's the love?

Casanova

October 25th, 2021 at 10:16 AM ^

You are right.

I took a stroll through my comments and for all intents and purpose I turned into a OSU troll. 

I just thought OSU was broken this year, now they are back to form. It might be their weak schedule. 
 

I’m back from my temporary insanity
 

yossarians tree

October 25th, 2021 at 1:02 PM ^

Things have been better for me this year because I've been less obsessed with outcome. Michigan is my team, we get 12 games, and each one is fun and an opportunity to cheer on the boys. I know this is a take on the old "one game at a time" spiel, but it's been working for me. It also helps that we are seeing growth in some of the players and some pretty good coaching.

Almost nobody makes it all the way through without a loss or two, and obviously we all want to get the OSU monster slain, but even the most optimistic of us know that they've routinely just had way more playmaking talent than Michigan. Sooner or later we'll get 'em, but I'm not going to let that talent gap ruin my enjoyment of the entire season.

ak47

October 25th, 2021 at 8:48 AM ^

The Cade/JJ debate is simply a debate of whether you base your season around beating OSU or not. Cade doesn't give the offense an explosive enough ceiling to score the 40+ points it will take to beat OSU in a shootout and we also know there's basically no way we can hold them to under 30 points. So starting Cade is basically praying for some sort of divine intervention in terms of weather to hope you can win that game like 20-17 in a blizzard .

Starting JJ means you might lose the Nebraska game because of bad decision making, or the NIU game could have been closer, but the reward for that risk is maybe building the offense that can actually put up the points necessary to win a modern college football shoot out.

Cade is on pace for 10 touchdowns and 2 interceptions. The type of offense that is going to put up the points to beat OSU is going to have a guy putting up 20+ touchdowns even if that means 6-7 interceptions from taking more risks. That risk might mean losing a game you otherwise would win (like Nebraska) but also gives you a chance to win a game you are otherwise going to lose (osu). We basically just have a much less talented version of the decision Georgia had between Jake From and Justin Fields, or Bama had between Hurts and Tua, or Clemson had between Tahj Boyd and Deshaun Watson. All the first guys on the list were good and won games, the second guys on that list changed the dynamics of what the ceiling of the team was. JJ might not be that guy but Cade clearly isn't and his inability to run or process the zone read is hurting the thing this team does best. If this year is truly all about beating OSU you have to turn to JJ, its clear Cade isn't good enough to lead an explosive offense against a team with a pulse, and turnover aversion isn't going to get it done to beat OSU.

Teeba

October 25th, 2021 at 9:27 AM ^

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/27

We’re 15th in scoring offense with a starting lineup that includes 3 top-250 recruits. JJ has the same cast of receivers that Cade has. I watched a little bit of the Bama-Tennessee game. I saw something I haven’t seen all season: WRs running free. Think about it, the difference between running a 4.6 forty and a 4.3 forty on a deep pass is about 3 yards. With 3 yards separation, Bama and OSU’s QBs don’t have to be perfect. Cade does and even when he is, Sainristil slows down or CJ fails to high point a ball or a defender is right there to knock the ball away. 
I will grant you that JJ adds an element to the run game. I hope he learns to protect himself when doing so. Watching him versus Northwestern gave me flashbacks to McCaffrey versus Wisconsin.

MGoBlue96

October 25th, 2021 at 10:01 AM ^

The problem with this though is you can't say for certainty what was happening on other routes you see that are not the one thrown to. I mean yes UM's receivers are not OSU or Bama's obviously, but I would argue that Cade doesn't exactly get through his reads particularly well, he really does seem like a guy far more comfortable with his first read being there.  So you are discounting the possibility that there is seperation being created on routes that are not being thrown to. 

unWavering

October 25th, 2021 at 9:37 AM ^

You play to win the game you're playing. That's the goal. It's ludicrous to think any coach worth his salt would "sacrifice" a game or two in order to maybe have a little bit better of a shot to win a game months away if everything goes just how you'd planned.

There are valid criticisms of Harbaugh. Not putting in a player who's not ready for prime time in order to get him reps so he can maybe be ready by the time we play OSU is not one of them. This narrative has to stop.

ak47

October 25th, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^

I mean we don't really know if he's ready or not for primetime. Its certainly no guarantee he is the answer. But its also not clear that he isn't ready and Michigan would lose those games with him in. Its a risk but there is also potential reward. Its possible making mistakes costs Michigan the Nebraska game, its also possible the offense finishing more effectively in the red zone means Michigan wins easily by multiple scores where an interception doesn't swing the game.

What makes this debate interesting to me is less whether JJ will make the passing game work more effectively, that is a debate that fans can't answer, its clear JJ has a more talented arm and its entirely unclear if he can use it more effectively than Cade. But we do know JJ can run a zone read where Cade can't and that makes the strength of our team, the running game, much better. So in this specific instance I actually think putting in JJ and him throwing the ball 10 times a game actually plays to the strength of this team more than having Cade in and being comfortable throwing 20 times if that is what it comes to because the passing game isn't good or trusted even with Cade.

unWavering

October 25th, 2021 at 11:05 AM ^

Jim Harbaugh doesn't think he's ready for prime time, so I'm inclined to agree with him.

You have 1% of the information that Harbaugh does, and most likely 1% of the knowledge of what it takes to play QB at this level. I mean, sure, perhaps Harbaugh is making a mistake by playing McNamara instead of JJ, but the performance of the team so far this year makes that argument a tough sell.

To think that Harbaugh is playing Cade for any other reason than to give us the best chance to win is absurd. 

maquih

October 25th, 2021 at 12:25 PM ^

I mean we don't really know if he's ready or not for primetime. Its certainly no guarantee he is the answer. But its also not clear that he isn't ready and Michigan would lose those games with him in.

And that's why the coaches get paid millions of dollars to make the decision and comments on the internet that they're wrong despite being 7-0 is dumb.

 

JFW

October 25th, 2021 at 10:00 AM ^

"Starting JJ means you might lose the Nebraska game because of bad decision making, or the NIU game could have been closer, but the reward for that risk is maybe building the offense that can actually put up the points necessary to win a modern college football shoot out."

What really frustrates me is that if they put in JJ, or he got put in through injury, fans will jump on him as soon as he starts making stupid mistakes. Or, more accurately, they'll blame Harbaugh for not developing the kid. We almost assuredly will see defenses adapt to him when they have film on him and the bloom will come off the rose a bit. (I don't know how many times, across many teams, I've seen fans say 'Well, that old QB just didn't develop' when their backup favorite now becomes the starter and defenses adapt). We'll not go away from the run because we'll want that for a Freshman QB. 

He's a Freshman. Freshman 99% of the time do stupid things. Play him and we might have 2-3 losses including to MSU going into OSU due to a trimmed down playbook, defenses designed to confuse an inexperienced guy, and Freshman mistakes. We might win some wild games and see some flashes of brilliance. 

But we'll have people bitching and complaining all the same. 

If I'm Harbaugh, I'm in 'F' it' mode. and going to do the best I can for the team based on the data I have. Which is what a good coach should do. 

ak47

October 25th, 2021 at 11:03 AM ^

I agree with you that people will bitch if JJ goes in and doesn't succeed. There is a reason the backup QB is generally the most popular person on a team. 

But that is why I framed it around the OSU game. It is distinctly possible JJ doesn't give Michigan a better shot to beat OSU than Cade does, but I personally think it is abundantly clear that Cade doesn't give Michigan a chance to beat OSU while there is still a chance JJ might be able to raise the ceiling. 

What tips the scales for me being pro JJ in this instance is that we don't trust the passing game with Cade as the QB. If you don't think your passing game can get it done and you are going to lean heavily on the running game, you should then prioritize what is going to make the running game work best, and for this team that is JJ and being able to run an effective zone read. I think this offense works better with JJ running zone reads and only throwing 10 times than it does with no QB run threat and Cade throwing the ball 20 times because they trust him slightly more in the passing game. It will work best when it has a QB that can effectively run a zone read and hit shots down the field throwing 25 times a game. That is a possible outcome for JJ still, its not for Cade.

bronxblue

October 25th, 2021 at 11:16 AM ^

What tips the scales for me being pro JJ in this instance is that we don't trust the passing game with Cade as the QB.

McNamara has thrown the ball 93 times over the past 3 games, including 28 times against Wisconsin and 38 times against Nebraska, especially in the second half when the game got close.  Over that same span UM ran the ball with Haskins and Corum...110 times combined.  And the numbers are even closer during the competitive parts of the game.  There have been, in fact, more games since the 2nd half of Rutgers and in fact UM looks pretty comfortable with McNamara throwing the ball.  

This also assumes, yet again, that the coaches want their starting QB to run the ball a bunch.  I have now 3-4 years of them decidedly not wanting to do so with any consistency, and there's a good chance the same would apply to McCarthy if he took the helm.  

bronxblue

October 25th, 2021 at 11:09 AM ^

I just don't understand this argument that McCarthy, as a true freshman, would somehow be better at throwing the ball and running the offense than McNamara.  Both Tua and particularly Fields weren't as good as the starters on the team their freshmen year, and they had immensely more talent on those teams at WR than UM has right now.  Michigan isn't going to win in a footrace with OSU with Johnson, Baldwin, and Sainristil no matter how many times you throw to them, and that's not even considering the fact that a QB who can't read defenses all that well and who still lacks touch on his passes is likely to turn the ball over and further hamstring the offense.

Nobody is saying that Cade McNamara is the starting QB at UM for the rest of eternity, but there's no evidence that McCarthy is ready to step in and be better at QB than he is right now.

ak47

October 25th, 2021 at 12:09 PM ^

I absolutely agree with you we have no proof that McCarthy would be better at throwing the football or running the offense than Cade. I think we do have enough proof that if allowed to continue doing zone reads the running game would have more success and may be able to get pick up some of the big chunk plays that have been missing when going against better defenses with sound safety play, which has also been a major reason we struggle to finish drives with touchdowns that get into the red zone.

But once again that is why I framed the QB debate as being around OSU in terms of the driving force. Because if your primary focus is can Michigan beat OSU at the end of the year the question isn't whether we have proof that JJ would do a better job running the offense against NW last weekend, it is whether the offense under Cade is good enough to beat OSU. And I think for most people the answer to that question is no. So the potential upside of JJ and the possibilities that means for beating OSU makes the risk worth it given what we have seen so far. Its not an obvious yes it will result better, but its a possibility. 

If you are comfortable with a 10-2 season with a loss to OSU but 11-1 also being more likely than 9-3 Cade is absolutely the right choice. If you think some more variance and potentially going 9-3 being more likely than 11-1 but with a better shot at beating OSU and potentially going 12-0 is worth it I think you roll the dice and see what you have with JJ. How you answer that question is more of a fandom choice than anything else.

Also to be clear the time to make the switch would have been over the bye going into NW. I think at this point that unless there is an injury or Michigan is down by 3+ touchdowns in the second half a switch isn't being made.

Newton Gimmick

October 25th, 2021 at 12:38 PM ^

Yeah I keep in mind that the Cade critics have already moved the goalposts several times.  In September it was "ok but this isn't going to beat Wisconsin/MSU/PSU/OSU" to somehow now just "this isn't going to beat OSU."  

Well, by then you're 11-0, and probably nothing is going to beat OSU.  But limiting mistakes and controlling the ball does give a team a small shot to put pressure on OSU's offense to score, which Oregon did. 

ak47

October 25th, 2021 at 12:56 PM ^

I mean we haven’t played 3 of those 4 teams so I don’t think the goal posts have moved that much. The argument is about whether Cade can beat the better teams on the schedule. The goal posts that get moved a lot is how good those teams are. I bet if we beat msu a lot of people will start talking about how they were actually a paper tiger which is dumb and annoying

MGoBlue96

October 25th, 2021 at 1:18 PM ^

I mean I am in Cade still starting camp but this is kind of nonsense isn't it? Goal posts can't be moved if they haven't played 3 of those 4 teams and the one they did kind of has a broken offense on the other side. Honestly, Nebraska is probably the most impressive thing from Cade despite the int and some of his inconsistencies because of the grit he showed in that game.

Newton Gimmick

October 25th, 2021 at 2:48 PM ^

I was just referring to the talking points that have shifted, not the actual results.  I just don't see "this isn't going to beat MSU/PSU" brought up anymore.  Cade is going to start Saturday and no one on this blog thinks we can't win with him starting.  And I hope no one thinks Arthur Sitkowski/Brandon Peters can win in a place that Cade cannot.

The counterpoint is that those games don't seem as tough as they did a month ago, but the thing about that is that in a season like this -- where, outside the top 3 teams in the country, every team is very inconsistent and mistake-prone -- being the team that is steady and limits mistakes can get you a lot of wins.

bronxblue

October 25th, 2021 at 1:28 PM ^

I think the zone reads work with McCarthy because it's a change-of-pace and typically are deployed sparingly and often toward the end of competitive contests.  Like, UM was up I think 20 when he ran in this game.  He did have one good run against Nebraska but he was very much responsible for losing 7 yards on UM's game-winning drive that made that FG a tough 40-yarder instead of the 30-ish one it would have been.

You aren't going to run either QB 20+ times a game.  Maybe McCarthy gives you 3-4 more FDs on the ground but he could just as easily miss the easy passes that McNamara hits that also get you first downs.  And the "struggles" in the redzone are a bit overrated; UM converted 4 of their 7 redzone possessions in this game into TDs and another with a FG.  Both McCarthy and McNamara were responsible for a non-scoring RZ possession.  And at least with McNamara he got the ball out there to Sainristil and they probably would have at least gotten a FG if there wasn't the fumble.  And on the season UM has converted 91% of their RZ possessions into points, 61% into TDs.  Those are both pretty good numbers.

But once again that is why I framed the QB debate as being around OSU in terms of the driving force. Because if your primary focus is can Michigan beat OSU at the end of the year the question isn't whether we have proof that JJ would do a better job running the offense against NW last weekend, it is whether the offense under Cade is good enough to beat OSU. And I think for most people the answer to that question is no. So the potential upside of JJ and the possibilities that means for beating OSU makes the risk worth it given what we have seen so far. Its not an obvious yes it will result better, but its a possibility. 

I don't remotely understand this logic here.  We have very little evidence on McCarthy either way, but assuming ignorance means hidden success is a HUGE mental leap there, relying on biases I could just as easily apply to McNamara.  I SAW McNamara throw for 2 TDs against one of the best defenses in the country in Madison.  I SAW McNamara lead this team back multiple times while losing against Nebraska, again on the road.  Those are actual data points, real ones we shouldn't dismiss with a wave of a hand and the fantasy that the unproven guy behind him who completes 63% of his passes against backups will be even better than the guy who...completes 63% of his passes against starting defenses.  There's no realistic cost-benefit analysis being applied here; it's simply "I want McCarthy to be QB so YOLO" which is a fine mantra but doesn't pass the sniff test.

Again, this entire argument is premised on a strawman argument that JJ McCarthy is the better option and has some intangible value to an offense that hasn't actually manifested.  There's no evidence of this and actually a decent chunk of evidence showing he's not as good a passer and his rushing, while a plus, doesn't come close to compensating for these deficiencies.  The "time" to make a switch was in the offseason or during the early parts of the year when McCarthy would have outplayed McNamara for the spot.  The fact he didn't at this point doesn't mean he's being held back; it's likely evidence he's just not as good as McNamara right now and people may just need to accept that.

omahablue

October 25th, 2021 at 11:16 AM ^

I totally agree with you, ak47. I know that Michigan is 7-0 and they have a very good chance of going into OSU game undefeated with Cade. But I'd MUCH rather go into the OSU game with a loss, but also have given our QB with much more upside the experience needed to improve. I just don't see how Michigan beats OSU with Cade as  the QB. They at least have a shot with JJ and a few starts under his belt.

Don

October 25th, 2021 at 9:14 AM ^

This is the first time in the 113-game Michigan-MSU series that both teams have entered the game 7-0, undefeated, and ranked in the top 10.

From the standpoint of what's at stake for both teams, it's the biggest game in the history of the rivalry.

MGoBlue96

October 25th, 2021 at 9:20 AM ^

The lack of holds thing is just something that UM has had to deal with Harbaugh's entire tenure, it's truly maddening at this point. Hutchinson got straight one arm barred around the neck on a guy he had beat 3 different times and the most egregious hold was actually on Ross on a blitz. Lineman reached out with one arm and literally spun him completely around with an obvious grab. Turned a sure sack into an incompletion only instead. I really do wonder if it is something Michigan has brought up to the league office cause it truly is a statistical meaningful trend ever since Harbaugh has been here.

Don

October 25th, 2021 at 9:25 AM ^

Not calling holding on our opponents' OL is a long tradition by the zebras—in the 1984 Holiday Bowl against BYU their OL basically tackled our DL the entire game and the officials just stood there and ignored it. We'll be battling two foes in EL—the Spartans and the officials.