Spencer Hall explains why James Franklin is the most overrated coach in CFB
This is just beautiful -- Spencer diagrams the last play of the PSU-OSU game, and his take on Franklin's performance is brutal:
That all said: Good lord, this is an absolute disaster. This is a disaster worthy of a Bosch painting. There are demons dancing with pitchforks around sinners with flowers growing out of their ears here. There are hellscapes, reader. Just look at the offensive line and tell us they were told where to go, and fully understood their assignments. Look at them and tell us this, you would be telling us only the most grandiose of lies. And they took two timeouts to get this! Not one, but two. This isn’t what happens when Penn State decided to take to the sideline to get things right once. This is what happened when they had two full timeouts to look at the Ohio State defense, really think about their best option, and then come back and put that on the field.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:24 PM ^
"...flamebait hoping to get a nibble."
I am not hoping for anything. I am sharing my opinion. Now, your response is exactly what I am referring to here. Literally anything anyone says even slightly negative about Harbaugh, is met with anger, name calling, and multiple posters running to the moderator sticky to demand bans.
Want substance - here yah go.
Harbaugh is 32-12 at Michigan
Urban was 43-3 in the same time frame (~3.5 seasons). He is 75-8 at OSU, in ~6.5 seasons. Harbaugh has already lost 50% more games than Urban in 3 less seasons.
Harbaugh is paid more than $500k/year more than Urban to boot.
Harbaugh has 2 3rd place finishes and a 4 place finish in our division. No titles of any kind. Losing bowl record at 1-2. A record of 1-5 against MSU/OSU, and now 0-1 against ND.
Hasn't beaten a Top 25 team on the road in his tenure.
Stop me when you get tired of hearing all about his losing. The guy hasn't gotten it done. He loses any game worth a damn and frequently gets out-coached even by coaches not named Urban or Mark.
Now, "Is Michigan better off than we have been in the past 15-20 years regardless?"
Well, I guess I would argue he isn't producing "better" seasons or has a "better" run in his ~4 years here than what we have experienced has our norm over the past 15-20, hell, even our past 30 years.
25 seasons before, we averaged a record of 8.48-3.8
In JH's 3 full seasons, he has averaged 9.3-3.6 record.
I wouldn't called that being "better off." We beat the teams we should be (i.e. the tomato cans) and we lose to our rivals and teams with pulse. That is pretty much our MO since Bo left.
There is a decent contingent here that is tired of the excuses and the "wait until he has his guys," or "wait until next year," from the other contingent here. Jim needs to win a game that matters. And also, people that point that aren't trolls. That is lazy and it needs to stop.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:45 PM ^
I’ll tell you what’s lazy: just typing out a won/loss record with no actual analysis and using it as a hot take on why Harbaugh isn’t doing good. Also lazy: comparing Harbaugh to Urban as if taking over one year of Luke Fickell is the same as taking over 8 years of RR and Hoke. Also saying PSU has some horrendous rebuild when the scholarship reduction was already rescinded when Franklin got there is pretty fucking lazy too. Maybe you’re just lazy and not a troll, but I’m going to go with troll because you seem to be hitting on all the troll talking points with absolutely no analysis.
October 2nd, 2018 at 3:17 PM ^
just typing out a won/loss record with no actual analysis and using it as a hot take on why Harbaugh isn’t doing good
Okay, what should we use then, if not win-loss records? Should we use our feelings, e.g. well, I feel we beat MSU in 2015 because that blocked punt is a once in 1000 years situation, so he actually won that game.
Wins are wins and losses are losses. No analysis is needed. Every team deals with injuries. Every team deals with transfers. Evert team deals with 5*s that don't pan out. At the end of the day, it's the wins and losses that matter.
Also lazy: comparing Harbaugh to Urban as if taking over one year of Luke Fickell is the same as taking over 8 years of RR and Hoke.
So are we no longer wishing to compare ourselves to our greatest rival? Okay, then who should we compare this program and JH to?
Also saying PSU has some horrendous rebuild when the scholarship reduction was already rescinded when Franklin got there is pretty fucking lazy too.
PSU was given about as close to the death penalty as you can get and yet, here they are, with a B1G title, a win against OSU and NY6 bowl victory. Are you going to argue none of that counts?
Maybe you’re just lazy and not a troll, but I’m going to go with troll because you seem to be hitting on all the troll talking points with absolutely no analysis.
And again, here we are with the "reeeeeeeeee troll" nonsense. The JH fan boys on this board are insufferable. "Someone has a different opinion than me - they are a TROLL!!!!"
Lastly, why do you get so angry over someone pointing out the realities of the situation? Simply stating JH's record here set you over the edge. You started name calling and throwing out accusations. All for having the audacity to plainly state simple truths.
October 2nd, 2018 at 4:22 PM ^
You're not satisfied with Jim Harbaugh's performance at Michigan. Fine. But you ignored the key point in my original post, you didn't answer the question with whom to replace him. We've heard all these opinions already dozens of times over. Jim's record is worse than Meyers. Michigan should aspire to more than just 9 or 10 win seasons. It's boring and tiresome. You want to malign Harbaugh, fine, but don't come onto the board with the same old tired hot takes and not have the bigger, better solution to discuss. Absent of that you are trolling, whether that is your ultimate objective or not.
October 2nd, 2018 at 5:11 PM ^
you didn't answer the question with whom to replace him.
Well, I guess to answer your question
Matt Campbell
Joe Moorehead
Brent Vanables
Tosh Lupoi
Just to name a few
But I don’t believe I ever advocated for JH to be fired. I simply stated he has under delivered and, going back to the OP, that PSU has been more successful than us over the last 4 years.
We've heard all these opinions already dozens of times over. Jim's record is worse than Meyers. Michigan should aspire to more than just 9 or 10 win seasons. It's boring and tiresome
Okay - fine. I haven’t posted those opinions as of yet. If you are bored and tired of them, keep scrolling.
...and not have the bigger, better solution to discuss
That sounds like what the head coach is paid $7M/year for. And what Warde Manuel is paid millions for.
Again, I am not even advocating for JH to be fired. I never said that. I can be critical and factual about his performance and results and not want him fired.
October 2nd, 2018 at 7:04 PM ^
Cat fight!!!!!!!! Where is my popcorn?
October 3rd, 2018 at 7:30 AM ^
First, I applaud you for offering some alternatives. Would make for an interesting (and likely contentious) discussion in a future thread. Hopefully such a discussion never actually becomes necessary.
Second, while it's true that you never explicitly stated you wanted Harbaugh fired, coming out with the tired trope of "Harbaugh makes $7 million a year and all we get is 32-12 and 1-5 against rivals..UNACCEPTABLE!" without outlining some sort of end game for where your thought process is supposed to take us is going to get you labeled as a troll. Absent of some overall context, you can't blame the board for their collective eye rolling and pushing back because you're opinion is open-ended and has been made dozens of times already. Then countering with a dismissive labeling of dissenters as "fanboys" is just going to reinforce the notion that you're just here to be contentious for the sake of being contentious.
October 3rd, 2018 at 10:42 AM ^
coming out with the tired trope of "Harbaugh makes $7 million a year and all we get is 32-12 and 1-5 against rivals..UNACCEPTABLE!" without outlining some sort of end game for where your thought process is supposed to take us is going to get you labeled as a troll.
I can understand that mentality. I belief that people are tired of hearing it because they are just as tired of the losing and underperforming as the rest of us, but are expressing it differently (i.e. getting mad at the people pointing out the failings)- but I understand and accept your point here.
Absent of some overall context, you can't blame the board for their collective eye rolling and pushing back because you're opinion is open-ended and has been made dozens of times already.
Fair. Totally fair. I would also say you can't get too upset about someone voicing an opinion on a message board. Doesn't matter if it's 100000 times already. Getting annoyed of words on a screen in a message board and then attacking that person seems irrational to me. I have a slightly different opinion that you (the royal you here, not you directly) - so I am going to call you a troll and try to get your banned? Honestly? Seems childish to me.
Then countering with a dismissive labeling of dissenters as "fanboys" is just going to reinforce the notion that you're just here to be contentious for the sake of being contentious.
Technically, I think I used "slappies" but point is taken. I understand how that could come across. My point is this - I have been here since pretty much the inception of this site. 05-06 sometime. I don't think I remember a time where a dissenting opinion is so roundly dismissed and the poster berated. Posters can say "yah, well, a flukey blocked punt, a crappy spot, and our 2 best players not getting hurt in a bowl game, and Harbaugh's record is totally different!" and a large percentage says "yah! right on! totally!"
And if someone says "well, that didn't happen. And we lost those games. So Harbaugh is what is record is." That person is attacked for being a troll. And they are demanded to analyze and support their opinion. The logic in that escapes me.
Ultimately, I am as annoyed of the people who make irrational excuses for the loses as the people who are annoyed of me (and posters like me) who highlight JH's flaws and his record.
Can't we be real and honest in his performance so far? And that includes his wins and losses. Do we look back 20 years ago and say "well, Carr went 9-3, but there was that one random fumble and Anthony Thomas was hurt for that one quarter, and, and and" - no, we talk about the record. That is all I am saying.
October 3rd, 2018 at 1:28 PM ^
My point is this - I have been here since pretty much the inception of this site. 05-06 sometime. I don't think I remember a time where a dissenting opinion is so roundly dismissed and the poster berated. Posters can say "yah, well, a flukey blocked punt, a crappy spot, and our 2 best players not getting hurt in a bowl game, and Harbaugh's record is totally different!" and a large percentage says "yah! right on! totally!"
But that nuance is relevant to the conversation. If your point is going to simply look at record, compare it to our competition and draw conclusions, while dismissing any more in-depth analysis as excuse-making is to invite push back.
I think the argument boils down to the simple question of do you see Michigan getting outcoached by it's opposition with regularity under Jim Harbaugh? I think the answer is no. Certainly there are exceptions to this, the Notre Dame game a month being one example, but I think for the most part, Harbaugh comes in with a sound game strategy that is sufficient to bring victory.
The reason we've fallen short in several instances can almost exclusively be traced to roster depth. This has been the primary difference between us and Buckeyes. JT Barrett goes down, in comes Haskins and OSU doesn't miss a step. We lose Wilton Speight and our season falls apart. We didn't lose to OSU last season because our gameplan was bad, we lost because we didn't have a quarterback who could hit an open receiver on a crossing route, and that fault doesn't solely reside with Jim Harbaugh.
Now I know this is where you'll probably disagree with me and point out that Harbaugh makes $7 million a season to "coach players up", but coaching players up takes time and if the parts you're starting out with aren't that great, you can only coach up so much. Brady Hoke left Harbaugh a decent set of starters, but not much else, so when Grant Newsome blows out his knee, we don't have 1 or 2 other decent options to bring into replace him. Not yet, at least. Wilton Speight hurts his neck and all we're left with is John O'Korn and a redshirt freshman who isn't ready to lead in Brandon Peters.
If you take into account the state of the OSU football program when Urban Meyer took over versus the state of Michigan when Harbaugh took over, I'm actually impressed that Harbaugh has won as much as he has. 2015 could've been a major mess if he doesn't bring on Jake Rudock to fill a massive hole at the QB spot. 2016 stings as a lost opportunity, but again our depth at QB hurt us by the end of the season. Now I think Michigan is on an upward swing and we could be headed to better days if we're willing to let Harbaugh continue to build his program and not get bogged down in wins and losses and decide to go chase the next shiny coaching type object.
October 3rd, 2018 at 4:07 PM ^
But that nuance is relevant to the conversation. If your point is going to simply look at record, compare it to our competition and draw conclusions, while dismissing any more in-depth analysis as excuse-making is to invite push back.
I fundamentally get that. Early in tenures, the new coach is playing catch up in a lot of ways and they have to overcome the deficiencies that got the last guy canned.
My one question to this would be - at what point do we stop using nuance to explain losses and simply count them as losses? How many games or years does JH get until the losses are 100% on him? Because right now, the way I understand how it works on this board, is that the wins are 100% because of JH and the losses are 100% on RR and Hoke, the refs, the injuries, etc. Is it 75 games? Is it 6 years? If 3.5 years isn't it, I understand that - but when?
I think the argument boils down to the simple question of do you see Michigan getting outcoached by it's opposition with regularity under Jim Harbaugh? I think the answer is no.
- Against teams with lesser talent? No
- Against teams with equal talent? 50/50
- Against teams with more talent? Yes
Again, it comes down to wins and losses for me. You have a different opinion so we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I get that you saw a great game plan against OSU last year and that maybe with a better QB we win. What I saw was a QB in Michigan's program for multiple years, that JM accepted as a transfer, that couldn't play B1G football and and wasn't capable of making the plays and the executing the fundamentals that the offense called for. So either he is a rockstar in practice and craps his pants in the game, or he played the same way in practice and the game, and JH had no one else (which he clearly didn't). At which point, do you construct an offense the kid can do - he did a bunch of great stuff at Houston. Do that?
We are getting super into the weeds here. So I will move on, but my overall point is - that was JH's QB and his plays - and neither were working.
Now I know this is where you'll probably disagree with me and point out that Harbaugh makes $7 million a season to "coach players up", but coaching players up takes time and if the parts you're starting out with aren't that great, you can only coach up so much.
You're right. That is the way I see it. So we won't need to belabor the point. I can understand and agree on your point about only coaching up a kid so far - everyone has a ceiling in their natural ability that a coach can take you to. I get that.
If you take into account the state of the OSU football program when Urban Meyer took over versus the state of Michigan when Harbaugh took over, I'm actually impressed that Harbaugh has won as much as he has.
One small pedantic point - we only play OSU once per year, so regardless of where OSU was pre-Urban has no barring on where Michigan was pre-Harbaugh/current-Harbaugh . Plus, we are what, 1-11 against OSU or something? The OSU game (as the last game of the year) has no impact on the rest of our schedule.
Now I think Michigan is on an upward swing and we could be headed to better days if we're willing to let Harbaugh continue to build his program and not get bogged down in wins and losses and decide to go chase the next shiny coaching type object.
I actually agree with you. I think/want to believe that JH will build an elite program. But that is my belief and that is all each of us has. The natural question that comes from that is - "How long does he get then?" I don't know the answer to that. I do know that he has put a lot of unnecessary pressure on himself by losing winnable games. And I believe that winnable games are won by coaches. Quick decision in the heat of the game, that extra coaching during practice to prep the kids for a certain scenario, etc. Lot of team can blow out inferior opponents. The special/elite teams go out and beat the teams with the same talent, or with more talent. Harbaugh needs more of those types of wins to give himself some breathing room.
October 4th, 2018 at 9:07 AM ^
My one question to this would be - at what point do we stop using nuance to explain losses and simply count them as losses? How many games or years does JH get until the losses are 100% on him? Because right now, the way I understand how it works on this board, is that the wins are 100% because of JH and the losses are 100% on RR and Hoke, the refs, the injuries, etc. Is it 75 games? Is it 6 years? If 3.5 years isn't it, I understand that - but when?
I don't see it this way. I think board's issue is when people come on complaining about how many games Harbaugh has lost and then compares his results to the results of other comparable programs WITHOUT taking the mismanagement of our previous coaching regimes into account. Posters who throw out Harbaugh's record compared to Nick Saban's or Urban Meyer's and then smugly sit back as if they've proved a point should be shit on by the board because that's a lazy take. Nobody would've liked to see Jim Harbaugh come in and flip the script on OSU and MSU in Year 1 a la Jim Tressel more than myself, but it didn't happen, and in hindsight, I'm not sure there's a coach in the country would could have done that given the state of the football program post-2014.
But ultimately your question is when should 3 loss seasons and a bad record against OSU become untenable for us as a fanbase? You didn't have an answer to that question and I'm not sure I have one either. I can say for myself that Michigan is playing a better brand of football than they were under Hoke and Rodriguez and while you lament the number of "winnable" games Harbaugh let get away, I will point out that 10 out of 12 losses under Harbaugh were winnable, whereas in the past, they weren't. It's important to note that many of his 32 wins could've easily been losses, but we found ways to pull them out. Overall, I take this as progress. Incremental and agonizing progress, but progress nonetheless. In the end, this progress needs to translate into banners, and I'm willing to give him a few more seasons to get us there.
Harbaugh hasn't restored Michigan to the juggernaut level that it once was from the 70's thru the 90's, and pundits who like page clicks will focus on that and his salary and make claims of how overrated he's proving himself to be. Reality may be that Michigan never rejoins the ranks of college football's elite; that the current unscrupulous climate that allows less ethical programs to flourish will keep Michigan from consistently ascending to the top. Those who think Harbaugh is getting paid big money to make Michigan into Alabama are probably kidding themselves unless they are prepared to resort to Alabama tactics to get there.
October 2nd, 2018 at 4:46 PM ^
This same bad in-game coach and his team, are going to walk into Michigan stadium and pants Harbaugh's Michigan.
October 2nd, 2018 at 7:08 PM ^
Sure Macaroni, like they did in 1 of 4 games...with the 1 win at their place. Sure did kick Michigan's ass last year. We will see if he can do it twice - I for one am very skeptical.
October 2nd, 2018 at 3:42 PM ^
I see why you have 0 points, surprised you're not in the negative. Must be tough for you to watch games, maybe find another team or sport.
October 2nd, 2018 at 3:55 PM ^
I see why you have 0 points, surprised you're not in the negative.
Who cares about fake internet points? Honestly?
Must be tough for you to watch games
Honestly, it is. But at least we have basketball season to salve the wounds
maybe find another team or sport.
No, that's okay. I will continue to cheer for Michigan, as I have for over 30 years now. But thanks for your suggestion though.
October 2nd, 2018 at 7:12 PM ^
Any relationship to DiagonalBlue?
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:39 PM ^
So tell us exactly what makes the Bill O'Brien led PSU teams a harder rebuild than the decade of dreg that Rich Rod and Hoke left behind? Seriously - explain it. O'Brien fielded competitive teams that played smart, fundamentally sound football. The scholarship limits were rescinded, though they were left with a sad OL, but those were already in rebuild when Franklin arrived (they just needed seasoning). They weren't world-beaters, but they were decent to good.
RR and Hoke did not field competitive, fundamentally sound teams. They did not leave behind a bevy of skill position guys, let alone OL. They did leave a disturbing lack of enthusiasm and excitement around the program. Season ending 2014, PSU's program was better set up for long term gain than Michigan's program was.
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:37 PM ^
This. 1000X this. Hoke's last complete recruiting class in 2014, which should be comprising our 5th year senior foundation at this point consists of just 3 starters; JBB, Winovich, and Mone. This is why offensive line performance is still an issue in Year 4, because Hoke left us with zero foundation to build upon. It's why we've had to do musical chairs with the quarterback position. Also, to Hoke's credit it's why the defensive line has been a source of strength the past 4 years, because this was the one position area where Brady did a good job stocking talent, a fact of which Jim has since taken advantage.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:38 PM ^
I will never defend Hoke. I have about as low of an opinion of this guy as a coach and, after the Sugar Shane debacle, as a person as one can have. Now, if we went to r/cfb for instance, or brought in a representative sample of educated CFB fans, I would hypothesize that the majority wouldn't accept the argument that a team can't overcome a recruiting deficiency from 5 years ago.
Jim and his hand selected coaches have had these kids for 4 years now. At some point, the onus is on him to coach them up. Plenty of programs are starting young offensive lineman and total lines. They adapt and overcome.
I simply refuse to accept the argument that the failure that was the 2014 recruiting class is why JH is 1-5 against rivals, hasn't beaten a top 25 team on the road, and has a losing bowl record.
October 2nd, 2018 at 5:09 PM ^
Plenty of programs are starting young offensive lineman and total lines.
Name them.
October 2nd, 2018 at 5:21 PM ^
At the start of this year, Michigan had a combined 54 starts on the O line.
A selection of teams that have similar O line total starts:
LSU: 35
OSU: 68
MSU: 66
WVU: 65
Auburn: 40
Georgia: 69
Clemson: 79
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:00 AM ^
It's a reasonable list, although we'd have to establish a metric for what constitutes an "experienced" line versus a "young" line. I also don't know much about the relative productivity of each teams OL beyond the fact that these teams are all in the Top 25, which is where I'm imagining you started.
I will point out that MSU's line doesn't appear to be particularly good; the Spartan offense hasn't been setting the world on fire this season and their run game is virtually non-existent, so I don't think your point is supported by that particular selection.
Ultimately, OL line performance is rooted in a combination of experience, personnel depth, talent, and coaching. Your argument focused on one aspect of that, coaching, while discounting the others. Presenting the argument of, "Harbaugh has had 4 years to develop an offensive line and we're still struggling...UNACCEPTABLE!" and dismissing any counterargument as excuse-making is disingenuous.
Teams that have younger offensive lines that are productive also tend to have lots of depth in personnel. You can get away with a redshirt freshmen or two on the line because they earned the right through competition to be on that line. That wasn't the case with Hoke teams which were woefully undermanned personnel-wise. Mason Cole (who should be anchoring this line as a 5th year senior) started at left tackle as a true freshman because he was the only reasonable option, not because he beat out 2 or 3 guys for the job. That kind of depth deficit has a way of compounding over time, and we're still living with it today. Harbaugh has been working on restocking the shelves, we have lots of 1st and 2nd year guys on the roster, but the reality is that not many guys are ready to step in a play effectively that young. OL is hard.
October 3rd, 2018 at 12:29 PM ^
although we'd have to establish a metric for what constitutes an "experienced" line versus a "young" line
Great point. I took "young" to mean "inexperienced" and that to mean "total starts." But a guy can be a red-shirt sophomore or junior with no starts due to depth and he clearly isn't young or inexperienced one could argue.
I also don't know much about the relative productivity of each teams OL beyond the fact that these teams are all in the Top 25, which is where I'm imagining you started.
You're exactly correct. As a popular argument for why we aren't as successful as we hoped has centered around the relative inexperience of our o line, I went and found the total starts for other "currently successful (i.e. top 25 teams)" or "recently/historically successful teams" to compare to.
I will point out that MSU's line doesn't appear to be particularly good; the Spartan offense hasn't been setting the world on fire this season and their run game is virtually non-existent, so I don't think your point is supported by that particular selection.
That's debatable but I understand your point here. However, I would counter than MSU has been one of the most successful programs in the B1G and the country over the past decade, regardless of o line experience or not. So they could be used as a counter to the argument "Michigan isn't winning games because we need more seasoned o linemen."
Ultimately, OL line performance is rooted in a combination of experience, personnel depth, talent, and coaching. Your argument focused on one aspect of that, coaching, while discounting the others. Presenting the argument of, "Harbaugh has had 4 years to develop an offensive line and we're still struggling...UNACCEPTABLE!" and dismissing any counterargument as excuse-making is disingenuous.
That's a fair counter. Maybe this is subjective, but I would rate coaching as the most important aspect in that list. Furthermore, I would expect a coach with the track record of JH, to be able to teach and coach 15 kids to be at least nationally average, especially after 4 years. I think you have a different opinion on that and I understand. That doesn't change my opinion on what JH and his coaching staff should be able to do. But I completely understand your point here.
OL is hard
To that I have no objection. I understand it is.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:16 PM ^
Amazing how we have all these assholish posters who all signed up within the last month. Really strange coincidence, that.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:30 PM ^
r/gatekeeping
What is the appropriate age of an account to be able to post here? I mean, since you are the arbiter of who's opinion counts and who can/can't post here.
October 2nd, 2018 at 7:10 PM ^
Not amazing at all. Amirite Diagonal Blue?
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:36 PM ^
I wish we had a remind me bot so we could revisit this comment in 2 years. It will age poorly.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:49 AM ^
Not to take anything away from those kids, McSorely and Barkley (yes he's gone, I know) are very talented players, but Joe Moorhead made them what they are, not James Franklin. Dollars to donuts if Moorhead isn't there they don't have that run in 2016 or 2017. James Franklin is probably a nice guy and he's been a very good recruiter but he's a moron on the sideline. Hands down.
Now that Moorhead is gone they'll have their Wile E. Coyote year, as Brian calls it, and then Franklin will go back to doing Franklin things like this and all will be well with the world. Sort of.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:04 PM ^
In Joe Moorhead news ---- http://firejoemo.com is ALREADY a thing.
I love college football .......
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:51 AM ^
"text" and the evolving storyline about Katie got me. Spencer's a genius.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:54 AM ^
Franklin: Bad in-game decisions.
But unfortunately he seems to do the snake oil think pretty well on the recruiting trail, so... It is working for him, so far at least.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:59 AM ^
I definitely would not consider him a great "in-game" coach, but he recruits maybe a half level or so under Meyer (which is pretty damn good), and he's hired some damn good assistants and gets out of their way. So I'd say he's a good coach in those regards.
Before we call him overrated, I'd remind all of us that he's done some things our current coach has not:
1) Beat OSU. However flukey it was, it happened. However flukey our loss was to OSU in '16, it still happened.
2) Won a Big Ten title
3) Won a NY6 Bowl
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:50 PM ^
James Franklin got out-coached by Brady Hoke.
The fact that PSU has beaten OSU whereas Michigan hasn't merely proves two things: 1 - time of the season matters, and 2 - you shouldn't extrapolate a trend from a single event.
OSU hired John Cooper because ASU beat Michigan in a Rose Bowl. How did that work out for them?
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:16 PM ^
Franklin elevated Vanderbilt from doormat to bowl team, and he has an excellent record at PSU. So he's not bad overall as a coach. But he seems to be a Les Miles type - good at recruiting and player development, not so good at gameday coaching. On Saturday, his team outplayed OSU most of the night, which is to his credit (building a team that good) but his game management was brutal and arguably cost them the win.
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:30 PM ^
The counterpoint is always that he was floundering a bit at PSU before bringing in Moorhead. That was when he saw Penn State really rise up. He looked hapless against us in the 49-10 beatdown. Moorhead's gone and he's doing alright with McSorley, but let's see what happens after McSorley graduates.
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:45 PM ^
That still conforms to the Les analogy. Les also needs strong coordinators to get the most out of his players.
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:28 PM ^
Imagine the blowback if Harbaugh pulled that crap.
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:35 PM ^
This has been posted by others here, but here is Franklin's record at Penn State vs:
Ohio State: 1-4
Michigan State: 1-3
Michigan: 1-3
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:57 PM ^
This.
I didn’t want either team to win Saturday but after 3.75 quarters of osu looking beatable I was fine with psu losing. Osu isn’t going anywhere. But if UM beats Franklin this year I believe more ppl will acknowledge Franklin’s record against top teams and UM may win some recruiting battles with them.
At least when UM lost to MSU last year they were on 2nd/3rd QB....
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:48 PM ^
I wonder if this year we're seeing some of the 2011 Borges effect at Penn State. Very frequently when a coach who was elite on one side of the ball is fired or leaves, there is some residual skill and discipline that remains in the following year(s). Everyone knows Borges was not an elite spread option OC, yet we still scored buckets of points in 2011 with Denard Robinson and Fitz Toussaint running a modified version of RichRod's offense before completely losing our ability to run the ball in the following years.
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:51 PM ^
Whatever makes us feel better
October 2nd, 2018 at 12:56 PM ^
A couple of the articles in SpaceCoyote's earlier post address this play. While running inside zone on 4th and 5 is probably a bad idea, it looks like OSU's stunt was specifically designed to stop that very play.
Why OSU had that play teed up however is in the eye of the beholder.
https://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/breakdown-sports-look-around-league
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:06 PM ^
It wasn't just about that horrible last offensive play, their defense switched up most of the second half. When they attacked OSU, they shut them down. That loss is squarely on their coaching staff
October 2nd, 2018 at 3:03 PM ^
I'm not sure about that. PSU blitzed a lot down the stretch and OSU kept counter-punching with screens.
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:07 PM ^
Not sure why Michigan fans underestimate the coaching ability of Franklin.
You are what your record is. Since getting there, Penn St is 40-18, has an outright B1G championship, and is 2-2 in bowl games since he’s been at B1G. Not too shabby.
These critiques seem similar to Dantinio when his program got on a roll. For example, they will suck when Leveon, Cousins, Narduzzi, Cook, or whoever leave. Hearing the same thing about Barkley, Moorhead, McSorely.
Its not easy to win in the Big Ten...ask Kevin Wilson or Pj Fleck.
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:18 PM ^
I'm not sure why anybody -- PSU fan or otherwise -- overestimates his ability. And yet...
He appears to be a good recruiter. He is not a good head football coach. His inability to understand in-game strategy speaks for itself.
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:31 PM ^
The narrative on Harbaugh vs. Franklin is absurd. It's not even debatable who is the better coach.
Yes...Franklin can recruit...and that's it.
If the MSU punt 6 and OSU 2016 robbery at the shoe don't occur, the narrative on Harbaugh is completely different. We're talking some all time flukey shit there, and the worst one sided officiated game I have ever seen.
Franklin's victory over OSU was just as flukey, blocked punt, turnovers, etc. He also managed to snatch defeat from the hand of victory against OSU the past 2 years - no because of flukey shit- but do to his own shitty coaching and game management.
Michigan has been snake bitten for a while now...some really shit luck (5 turnovers in a monsoon last year against MSU as well) , and this has fallen on the Harbaugh narrative.
PSU
October 2nd, 2018 at 1:49 PM ^
I'm a Penn State fan who has never been overly enamored with James Franklin.
But man --- this talking point almost feels like it's getting TOO overboard.
Yes, that final play was on Franklin. Things were over-thought WAY too much, and Franklin didn't follow a basic rule: when the game's on the line, play to your strengths. Live or die on your strengths.
But he's still the Head Coach of a team that (1) won 11 games in each of the last 2 years, (2) finished in the Top 10 each of the last 2 years, and (3) this year, is just coming off playing a highly competitive game w/ the B1G's top dog on Saturday night.
That's all pretty good.
All that said: Saturday night has made many more folk question if he's the man to get PSU from "good/very good" to "elite."
Which is a legitimate question. He may not be that man. If I had to bet, he probably isn't that man. The transition from "good/very good" to "elite" is the hardest transition to make, and many coaches fail at that task.
But even if Franklin fails at that - he's still, IMO, an above-average college football Coach. Which - hey. Many programs, many blue-blood programs, have done worse than that.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:22 PM ^
I agree with you mostly, except for that right now the difference between really good and elite is pretty enormous when you consider that this year everybody, and yes you can include Ohio State and Clemson in that group, is playing to get to be Alabama's bitch in the final game. Saban has advantages that are hard-won and some that are probably under the table, but his program is on another level from everyone else on a year-in, year-out basis. Frankly, it has gotten very old, so somebody please put that man in a rocking chair or back in the NFL so that we can get some actual parody back in the P5 and have real intrigue as the season plays out.
October 2nd, 2018 at 2:50 PM ^
Yep - Alabama has definitely transcended to a "super-elite" level. They have literally made their own tier.
I've followed college football since the early 1990s --- I don't think anyone else has reached that tier. Maybe Florida State in the 1990s. If the 4-team playoff was a thing back then, FSU would have qualified in all of 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999.