OT: Talking Cars Thursday - Halo Cars
Make it a Thursday edition (I had lots of meetings Tuesday) of our occasional offseason distraction making an appearance during the pause.
So - "Halo Cars". The cars that exist on the tippy top of a marquee's lineup. Ones that get people excited and get them into the dealership - even if they just buy a lesser edition. Halo cars can be technical showcases, they can be aspirational, they're made just to show they can be, they're investments by the company as much as they are ways to generate profit. So, what's your favorite? Who's got the best? What's the smartest halo car anyone's making right now?
Some examples of halo cars current and previous:
- Porsche 959, 918
- Ferrari F40, F50, Enzo, Etc, La Ferrari
- McLaren P1
- Ford GT
- Dodge Demon
- VW Phaeton
- Audi R8
- Lexus LFA
- BMW M1, Z8
- Acura NSX
- Nissan GT-R
February 11th, 2021 at 3:07 PM ^
Aaaaaand my automotive hot take for the day:
The F-150 Raptor is the best Halo Car currently available, at least from a dollars standpoint. I don't know if Ford could sell more F-150s than they do, but having the Raptor - and the upcoming Raptor R - certainly doesn't hurt. America's a truck country - trucks sell, well, by the truck-truck load. And Ford has sold more Raptors in recent years than Chevy has sold Corvettes. Prices for the two are similar, and the Raptor definitely costs less to produce since it uses fewer bespoke parts, and can get economy of scale from the best selling* vehicle in America.
*The GM truck twins (Silverado/Sierra) combined outsold the F-150 last year, as they have occasionally over the F-150's 30+ year streak.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:22 PM ^
I’m a big Raptor fan as well, and the new trialing arm setup they’re bringing in is a plus.
Honestly, though, the Raptor is merely a well-customized trim on a standard F-150, and isn’t even remarkably expensive. There’s room, in my opinion, for a clean-sheet-of-paper halo truck from GM or FCA that ground-up builds something more along the lines of a trophy truck that sells for more and genuinely fits the halo concept.
February 11th, 2021 at 6:45 PM ^
Like the F-150 Shelby?
February 11th, 2021 at 7:59 PM ^
No. More than souped up specs; full 4-link trailing arm rear, long-travel front, massive shock absorption, huge tires. A ground-up build, not just an adaption of a frame.
Wouldn't be cheap, but we're talking halo vehicle here.
February 11th, 2021 at 5:11 PM ^
I'd be curious to see what the corvette vs. raptor numbers are after this year. We've been officially sold out of corvette's at my dealership ever since the 2020 was announced and we will continue to be sold out for the next year and a half (maybe more). I do not know of any dealers around me DON'T have a waiting list in place.
Also if one of them manages to make it to the dealer and the buyer doesn't buy it, it sells for 25k above sticker every time. Easy. We've done it twice at my dealership. All the dealers around us are doing the same.
February 11th, 2021 at 5:13 PM ^
I should also mention I have two buyers on our order list now. One of them is somewhere near the top of the list (but order hasn't been placed yet) and the other is in 22nd place. I do not know how long the list is but we've had it as high as 80 in the past.
February 12th, 2021 at 9:17 AM ^
I don't doubt that at all. The C8 looks great. But I'm not sure the margins are better than Raptor margins.
February 11th, 2021 at 6:18 PM ^
Ram TRX >>>>>>>> ford raptor. 702 hp vs 450 out of a turbo 6, get serious ford - sissy, girly man toy truck!
February 11th, 2021 at 7:56 PM ^
Agree. The TRX is pretty amazing, inside and out.
February 12th, 2021 at 9:16 AM ^
This is where the Raptor R comes in. It's going to get the Shelby GT 500 V8.
That said, Ford claims to have sold more V6 Raptors than the previous gen V8 Raptor.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:13 PM ^
Halo cars don't make sense to me. It's not like their features are "pushed down" to regular models (e.g does a Honda Civic use parts/ tech from a 10 year old NSX)?
Also, I'd like to have the mindset to drive a Dodge Dart and pretend I'm in a Deamon.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:25 PM ^
They are, eventually, pushed down.
For the NSX example - the MDX crossover claims to use tech from the NSX's 4WD.
The ridiculous tech of the 959 became the basis for the 996 Turbo (sequential turbocharging, 4wd system, etc.) it also debuted things like adjustable suspensions, tire pressure monitors, etc. That just took 20 years to become more common at a reasonable cost.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:28 PM ^
Another thought is that if it's not the tech, maybe it helps with sales of lesser models.
Demons sell Challenger SXTs.
Wrangler Rubicons help sell Renegades
Bronco Sasquatches help sell Bronco Sports
February 11th, 2021 at 4:25 PM ^
Sasquatch is just a trim level, and it’s available on every standard Bronco. Actually remarkably democratic. The standard Bronco, though, does move sports.
A halo vehicle doesn’t just sell individual cars. It sells the brand. It says something about the logo on every model they sell. There’s a little echo of the Corvette in every Chevy bowtie.
February 11th, 2021 at 8:45 PM ^
I’m gonna need better hearing to hear that Corvette echo in an Equinox.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:15 PM ^
A couple reasons. 1 - some technology absolutely does trickle down. Often, the tech is developed and put first into the halo car and then forms of it are adapted for more mainstream models. It definitely happens. At the end of the day, most (all?) halo cars lose money, but they are ways for the company to innovate and feed other parts of their operations (mainstream lines, racing if they have it, marketing, etc.).
2 - a halo car certainly does sell lesser models, although probably not as drastic as a Mustang GT500 selling you on a Ecosport, but maybe it will sell you on an Ecoboost or GT, and a Charger Hellcat can sell you on a Charger SXT, GT, or RT. If you walk into the Acura dealership to look at the NSX, maybe you're already an Acura fan and could be put into an MDX or TLX. Works well for the brand loyalist.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:23 PM ^
They absolutely do get pushed down. Traction control, throttle modes, dual clutches, etc etc and that’s just the performance stuff. The same is true of top of the line luxury cars with convenience & comfort features.
Early tech is expensive. It takes time to prove the concept & scale. You do that with either your highest margin products or limited run halo products.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:20 PM ^
Interesting question. I’m not sure it’s a halo car since it’s more attainable than many on your list, but the Corvette has to be up there.
The new C8 is quite impressive and in my small circle, I’ve come across a few guys who would typically not buy GM product be early adopters/acquirers of the C8.
Given Chevy is basically a SUV/truck brand now, I’m not sure the Corvette drives purchases of other vehicles in the line up, but it certainly has helped keep the Chevy name in the press.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:26 PM ^
The 'Vette counts for sure. And it's why there are things out there like suggestions that it become a sub-brand, with a "Corvette SUV" to take on the Porsche Cayenne.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:47 PM ^
Definitely interested in C8. But probably will have to wait about 10 years until the prices are reasonable (I have never spent more than $40k for car in my life - at least for myself).
February 11th, 2021 at 3:57 PM ^
Me neither, but I'm really debating getting one of these "last of the American NA V8" type cars available right now. I know my GM trucks will probably have a V8 in them until the last dinosaur is milked, but cars with a V8 are not long for this world.
$40k is the minimum for cars of that ilk. I've scrimped, I've saved. Maybe I can swing that now.
I know you can buy a Dodge, but I'd like my car to have been designed this century.
February 11th, 2021 at 5:55 PM ^
Just curious, what do you have against an electric motor if it provides more torque, acceleration and control?
February 11th, 2021 at 6:04 PM ^
I've never driven an electric car and I admit I'm biased. I love the feel of a gas engine and can't imagine anything coming close. On the other hand, I also love the idea of never having to buy gas again and doing something good for the environment. I guess what I'm saying is, I should go test drive an electric car. I hope other companies besides Tesla address people like me who really like to drive. I have a few friends who like the feel of not driving, and I wouldn't want that in a car.
February 11th, 2021 at 6:21 PM ^
You should just schedule a test drive with Tesla to see how responsive an electric is. It’s strange to not feel the jolt of shifting gears or the roar of the engine as it approaches peak RPMs, but performance wise, it blows the gas engine away.
February 11th, 2021 at 8:27 PM ^
You can make an electric motor do whatever you want it to. The only challenge is keeping the rest of the car together while it rockets down the street. There is no feat of engineering to this, it's child's play.
The lowest priced Tesla does not have a Speedometer. End of interest in said car. Not to mention price of course.
Some day Tesla will aim at selling to the mass market and I'll look at them. Right now they are trying to be edgy, and market to people who buy shiny things.
February 11th, 2021 at 9:47 PM ^
it was -10 this morning at the farm. ambient, not wind chill. i think it would be cool to drive an electric but besides the significant environmental impact most folks don't like to talk about, until/unless the technology significantly advances they will just be very large lawn ornaments on days like today.
February 12th, 2021 at 9:22 AM ^
Agreed on the environmental impact. Not to mention EVs are usually paired with renewable energy ideas. If that's not a recipe for disaster, I don't know what those people are thinking.
"Sorry, today is a no driving day, as it's winter and short days mean low solar power available, low winds expected today and tomorrow. In other news, the government has set your thermostats to 65 degrees today and tomorrow in a sign of solidarity with those less fortunate. Officials state this adjustment has nothing to do with the low winds and is just temporary."
I'm all for moving forward on both of these ideas, but l think it's going to take a good 100 years or so to happen without vast stupidity happening. Long past when I'll be here.
Let me enjoy my V8 in peace meanwhile.
February 12th, 2021 at 10:20 AM ^
What is the "environmental impact" issue? Electric is so much more efficient than gasoline. The negative is if you use coal to generate the electricity. But coal electric generation in the US has dropped by 50% in the last decade and will continue to drop. If that is a sincere environmental argument against electric cars, it is also an argument against coal.
February 12th, 2021 at 10:36 AM ^
You must be very incurious to pose such an unserious question honestly.
I'm old enough to remember when air pollution standards were much more lax than now. I wouldn't even consider coal to be a serious environmental threat (in the US).
Do I want someday everything to run on renewables, sure. But it doesn't have to come at the cost of our standard of living.
February 13th, 2021 at 7:32 AM ^
You must be incurious to pose such an unserious answer honestly. Coal use has dropped significantly while renewable electric generation has gone up significantly. At the same time, we have not seen any significant increases in the price of electricity. With regards to the intermittency issue, there are plenty of solutions. While battery power gets much of the press, the cost of low to zero ghg hydrogen is decreasing and there are other tools such as load shifting with technologies that can be used in a myriad of applications from home water heaters to commercial cooling and refrigeration systems.
For just about every major environmental problem we have solved, from lead in gasoline to CFCs breaking down the ozone layer to acid rain, the refrain has been the same. First it is not really a problem, second, it is way to expensive to address and it will destroy the economy; to solve the problem for lower costs than almost everyone predicted; to people claiming that because they no longer hear about the problem, it must have been overblown.
February 12th, 2021 at 9:15 AM ^
In my best Dodge-Neon-ad-campaign voice: "Hi"
February 11th, 2021 at 5:15 PM ^
If you're planning on waiting 10 years for a used one for a more reasonable price, sure. But the new car prices will never drop. They will only go higher. 40k used to be a lot for a car/truck but that is pretty average nowadays. The midlevel Silverado Crew cab stickers for 45k.
February 11th, 2021 at 6:23 PM ^
I never buy a new car. The way they depreciate, it never made sense to me.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:24 PM ^
The Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid is pretty swell, especially with the S appearance package.
What? The brand has a total of three models, two of which are minivans.
February 11th, 2021 at 3:36 PM ^
Just buy the damn minivan
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35067756/why-deny-the-minivan/
https://jalopnik.com/parents-just-buy-the-damn-minivan-1597502940
https://jalopnik.com/minivan-sales-are-plummeting-compared-to-suvs-because-w-1835336564
https://jalopnik.com/the-2021-honda-odyssey-is-a-supercar-for-dads-1845830235
February 11th, 2021 at 3:55 PM ^
Agreed. I was going to get a Highlander but after actually looking into it found the Sienna was equal or superior in every category I cared about.
- Same 296hp V6 & 8-speed tranny used in the Highlander; this thing is ridiculously fast for a mini van
- Same MPG (Ok the Highlander was like 1mpg better, fire the victory fireworks)
- More cargo space; can easily fit 8 adults with plenty of room in the back still; Highlander can maybe do 7 cramped adults with maybe a third as much space in the back still
- Automatic side doors and rear hatch, side doors mean the kids won't open them too far and smash the car next to us
- Less expensive purchasing price
- Cheaper insurance
- Smoother ride
Basically anything you like about a 3 row SUV a van will match or do better. Ok ground clearance, but I wouldn't be off-roading even with an SUV so that's irrelevant.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:22 PM ^
Could not agree more, at least for my purposes. Main dings against minivans are ground clearance (because so many people even softroad, much less offroad), towing capacity (same thing again), fuel economy, looks (subjective), and AWD.
At least two of those are addressed with two hybrid and AWD options (both Sienna and Pacifica have available hybrid and AWD powertrains).
February 11th, 2021 at 3:54 PM ^
Sell a Pacifi-cat or we riot!
February 11th, 2021 at 3:55 PM ^
The Bugatti La Voiture Noire costs at least $10 Million more than the base model Bugatti so it should not only qualify but also be sitting in my garage (That I haven't built for it yet!).
February 11th, 2021 at 4:09 PM ^
Yeah, the Veyron could have been thought of as a showcase for the VW Group as well. Also sequential turbos (just 4!) a DCT, etc.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:12 PM ^
I’d add my Shelby GT350 to that list.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:18 PM ^
Sure, most Shelbys typically are. I figured that if I added "enthusiast specials" it'd be a lot longer list. But a GT350/500 certainly could help sell lesser Mustangs. And that tech does trickle down regularly - the Performance Pack on GT/Ecoboosts for example.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:25 PM ^
Jag XJ220
Does the Plymouth Prowler count as a halo car?
Lincoln Blackwood was the dumbest halo truck ever
Caddy CTS-V sedan and wagon - more attainable, but definitely awesome, especially the swag wagon
February 11th, 2021 at 6:44 PM ^
The Prowler was one of the most under-powered rides, but one the coolest modern throw back roadsters ever.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:27 PM ^
Chevy Tahoe High Country belongs on the Halo list. Absolutely incredible with 6.2 engine.
February 11th, 2021 at 5:24 PM ^
As a biased Chevy salesman, I can agree with this. People love the Tahoe. The new 2021 is something to behold. So much technology. So much more space than they used to have. So comfortable. Such a smooth ride. So quiet. And so much power on the 6.2! Amazing vehicle. Truly incredible.
February 12th, 2021 at 10:41 AM ^
Wow, 70k to start. That's crazy, but I admit if they weren't priced what they were I'd love to have one. Beautiful automobile. And the 6.2 is God's V8.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:46 PM ^
Mercury grand marquis.
February 11th, 2021 at 4:50 PM ^
Not exactly a Halo car, but the Jag I-Pace is a pretty nice ride and photos don't do it justice.
I own a '19 in a midnight blue metallic with burnt orange interior. It's very fast and very nimble, and I get tons of compliments on it. Exudes class (this 54 year old can take it where he can get it).
Best of all for buyers, they are not selling great in the US (very well in Europe and Scandanavia where they are using as taxis and building conductive charging stations), so deep discounts are available and full federal tax credits still apply. I bought mine $12K under sticker, plus $10K in tax credits brings into a reasonable range. $9 of electricity takes me roughly 220 miles.
February 12th, 2021 at 12:02 PM ^
I am of similar age with similar concerns and agree that the iPace looks fantastic both inside and out. Plus, you don’t see them very often so there is a certain ‘exotic’ factor which is appealing. I have read great things about their handling as well. Your comment about the range has been the sticking point for me however. I just don’t think that 220 is enough for me — and certainly not at that price point. I am hopeful that they execute a mid-cycle technology enhancement which results in a more competitive range and then they will have me.