Did Brown's Defense Limit Kwity Paye?
Did the structure of his defense limit Paye's ability to get to the QB? I can imagine there are other reasons for playing Paye the way he did, i.e. a weak interior DL Can anybody provide more detail?
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2021/08/10/colts-training-camp-kwity-paye-hopes-help-pass-rush/5509538001/
August 10th, 2021 at 9:48 AM ^
Also, how do I embed the link?
August 10th, 2021 at 10:22 AM ^
Click the chain icon (third from the left) and paste in the URL.
You can also have it be clickable from a word, such as this: LINK
August 10th, 2021 at 3:32 PM ^
Thanks. Sorry for the ignorance.
August 10th, 2021 at 9:51 AM ^
he wouldn’t be the first player to not have his talent fully utilized
August 10th, 2021 at 10:08 AM ^
FWIW i posted same thought in the Nordin thread regarding the incredible development of Peoples-Jones over the past year. If the season started today he would be WR #1 over both OBJ & Jarvis Landry - he's been that dominant in the Browns training camp.
I met and spoke briefly about a week ago with DPJ uncle and he shared with me his frustration at both his underutilization and lack of actual coaching at Michigan. He said Michigan was basically no different than his high school in regards to his actual development on the field and the Browns were the first team he's EVER been on that actually coached him. The others just ran him out there and expected him to dominate based on his physical talent. The Browns have turned him into an actual wide reciever.
Nordin, Paye, Peoples-Jones were all highly rated high school athletes who underperformed to expectations at Michigan. Our problem hasnt been talent aquisition. Our problem is we didnt have coaches in place that knew how to develop them. Hopefully we do now.
EDIT: Several posters below corrected me on Paye. he was a 3 star athlete out of HS who actually overperformed, not underperformed, expectations. I was wrong to include him here.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:14 AM ^
Our WR coaching is...underwhelming (to put it nicely). But that's also a product of our outdated offensive philosophy.
Michigan - wasting more talent than any other program since the days of Schembechler. UM Football's official motto should be "doing less with more but with an undeserved holier than thou attitude."
Yes, I'm freaking bitter AF. Schembechler turning out to be another Paterno has made be extremely cynical about my alma mater.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:22 AM ^
In regards to the WRs, we had a few WR coaches who were a bit suspect or bolted as soon as they could for better opportunities.
In addition, being on an NFL team is drastically different from Michigan. With decent lines, running backs, and accurate QBs, a player like DPJ could really excel. I don't think him being at OSU would have been best, but he would have done some damage at a school like PSU.
And then we had Nico and Tarik. They are both incredibly good. If we had other pieces and a mentality to abuse defenses, we would have given OSU a run for their money.
So, what went wrong? OSU. They abused us. Even when we score a lot, they double whatever we did. How? I point to our defense. Our defense and lack of shut down corners. Don Brown is an elite coach for his system when we have shutdown corners. We packed that in 2020.
Sigh.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:33 AM ^
What went wrong was that Shea was locked onto Ronnie Bell every down. There were times I'd be screaming at TV to throw it to DPJ wide open deep.... quite frankly I am surprised DPJ didn't go ballistic... they NEVER threw to him... what this new staff never does is to throw it deep into one on one coverage, regardless if open or not... Let the fucking WR make the play...worst case it is a pick, but its like a punt.... best case is catch, or often, pass interference.... I think Carr understood this and threw long to his wrs, covered or not....
August 10th, 2021 at 11:40 AM ^
DPJ had like four dropped passes last OSU game.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:38 PM ^
Posted the same point recently, when qb decides where he is throwing the ball in the huddle it doesn't work
August 10th, 2021 at 1:41 PM ^
I'm pretty sure there was one game in 2019 where on a particular play no one was within 15 yards of Nico and he did go ballistic.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:51 PM ^
Ronnie Bell was running better routes than DJP, that has zero to do with coaching! Ronnie Bell was an effort guy and got more PT because of it! Working on his game, running routes correctly, reading defenses and getting to the open spot like he was supposed to do!
DJP if he had the same work ethic at Michigan would have been all conference, all american level! Nobody can say he had that work ethic to be better when he was still rounding his routes, his get off at the line did not match his physical stature. He was sloppy in and out of his breaks and still managed to beat lesser db's solely on athletic ability! He rarely was a good blocker and again, these are things DJP controls that has zip to do with coaching.
It drives me insane when people and former players complain about coaching when they weren't even doing the things they should have been doing to get better.
Contrast that with Kwitty Paye, the DTs next to him were meh at best tbh and Kwitty worked his arse off to become an elite de both against the run and pass! The answer to the question above is no Don Brown's scheme didn't limit Kwitty, his recruiting of small dt's that couldn't push the pocket or ever demand a double team let alone hold the lone gap they were responsible for did! That allowed teams to just double our de's. Which is even more impressive when you watch Kwitty play! He was physically ready, you could see his technique, his 1st step, punch, hand, shoulder and helmet placement that he followed his coaching and worked on his game relentlessly!
One was a recruiting after thought the other a highly touted 5*. One has family complainging and the other worked his way to being a 1st round draft pick. Kwitty Paye figured it out! DJP, he might in cleveland or he will be sent packing from the league with in a year or so!
August 10th, 2021 at 3:17 PM ^
EnergyBlue1,
”...was an effort guy and got more PT because of it” - that’s a huge problem in this program. Play the best players. Put the ball in the hands of your best talent. I don’t know how close you are to the program but former players tell me that Charles Woodson (first 2 years at least) Braylon Edwards, and Chris Perry (other than maybe his last year) weren’t “effort guys” either. But rather than screw around with some gadget play to a beloved walk-on, when M was in trouble Carr was going to his best talent. “Braylonfest” MSU game as one example. Woodson running a reverse with a pass option in the Rose Bowl as another.
What isn’t addressed in your post is MGrowOld’s whole point that, regardless of “effort”, DPJ wasn’t being coached. Barely anyone was there to coach him up on route running and other techniques. That is so unacceptable. For DPJ’s future and for the success of the program.
August 10th, 2021 at 11:17 PM ^
+1
Sorry I could only give one thumbs up to this comments.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:52 PM ^
In Black's case he just got hurt too many times to ever really bounce back. I felt really bad for him because at times he looked like he best receiver in the group, but by the end he was getting yanked from the field and clearly wasn't the same player.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:25 AM ^
Paye was not highly rated. He was a random 3 star from Delaware I think, so he actually vastly overperformed to go from that to 1st round draft pick. I'm sure the rest of what you said is correct though.
August 10th, 2021 at 5:10 PM ^
Rhode Island, but yeah. He was ranked in the 900s when he committed, then jumped up just inside the top 500 by the end of the recruiting cycle
August 10th, 2021 at 10:29 AM ^
I'll agree with you on DPJ, but I wouldn't put Nordin or Paye on the coaching staff. College kickers are often all over the place with respect to consistency, and while Nordin was highly sought after in high school, it also seems like he had some mental blocks that kept him from reaching his potential. I wouldn't place the blame entirely on the coaches for that.
As for Paye, I believe he was a fairly nondescript three star recruit. Do you think he still would've been a first rounder had he kept his commitment to Boston College? Hard to say but I don't think that Michigan did him a disservice based on his draft slot.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:37 AM ^
You guys are absolutely right on Paye - my bad on that one.
In regards to Nordin however I do believe that when the #1 kicker in high school struggles as much as he did you have to look back at his coaching and ask "did we help him or hurt him"?
2017: Jay Harbaugh (TE & Special Teams)
2018: Jay Harbaugh (TE & Special Teams)
2019: Chris Partridge (Safeties, LBs & Special Teams)
2020: Jay Harbaugh (RBs & Special Teams)
Tell which coach you think "helped" Nordin the most in his four years here? I'll hang up and listen.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:15 PM ^
Don't college kickers and punters kind of just do their own thing? I'm certainly not expecting Jay Harbaugh or Chris Partridge to be experts at those disciplines, nor would I really expect that out of any college special teams coach. I just think he lost his mental edge and never could recover. When you're nailing long kicks and setting Michigan records early in your career and then start to struggle, I can see how it would be difficult to understand why it's happening and then eventually begin to expect failure.
August 10th, 2021 at 1:04 PM ^
I mean, the #2 kicker from his class (JJ Molson) was less accurate than Nordin (68% compared to 72%) on FGs, and #3 Skyler Southam was even worse (63%) and transferred from BYU to Utah after losing his job.
Kicker feels a lot like offensive linemen in that you sort of have to hope they keep developing and turn into good players but it's a bit of a lottery ticket. And most of them AFAIK have kicking assistants and other support outside of the ST coach. Sometimes guys just do well at different stops.
I would like to add that Quinn Nordin also started off really hot at UM (13/15 on FGs including some bombs) and then scuttled for a year before hitting 10/13 his junior year, including going 10/10 in the last 5 games. He then basically lost his job in camp and missed three FGs against Rutgers in 2020. Kicking is weird and sometimes guys just can't keep the consistency. Maybe Nordin's figured it out this year with the Pats or he's just in a hot streak.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:40 AM ^
Brown and his defense, for all its faults... help MADE Kwity Paye into a first rounder... did the smallish DT affect him ? Maybe...or maybe it helped him, being double teamed so much.... Brown deserves credit here, not shade.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:32 AM ^
DPJ critisism I can see be legitimate. Kid was insane out of high school and didn't get much better in college.
However I don't know how you can blame the coaches with Nordin. The guy was hitting 50+ Yard field goals no problem in his early years and then just regressed. How much coaching is necessary for a guy who has shown the ability to kick but then later couldn't hit anything? There's only so much coaching can do for someone who is in his own head.
Also the Paye criticism sucks because his production was staunched because he had to crash inside to bail out our shit defensive tackles. This he did admirably but he didn't get the pass rushing numbers because of it. So yeah his production was down but his utilization was good.
Also Paye was not a highly rated athlete out of high school, he was a low three star gem found out of the north east that the staff turned into a first rounder. I think the staff deserves some credit for finding him and building him up to where he got, but deserves the criticism of failing in the overall defensive scope that limited his role.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:44 AM ^
NM - someone already said this.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:52 AM ^
Player development has definitely been an issue with the previous coaching staffs. We need to be doing this better if we ever want to catch up with OSU. Recruiting is important but if you don't maximize the players performance once they arrive we're always going to be a step behind.
August 10th, 2021 at 11:23 AM ^
Gattis was DJP's WR coach in '19, and I think McElwain was in '18. Who was his WR coach in '17?
Regardless, three different position coaches in three years isn't the way to do things for a critical element of the offense. It's more than a little puzzling that a HC who was a former college and pro QB failed to realize the importance of coaching consistency for receivers.
August 10th, 2021 at 11:52 AM ^
We didn't have a WR coach in 17, only a grad assistant. Brilliant use of coaching capital with 4 highly regarded freshmen WR's coming in that year. Pep had a hand in it as well as passing game coordinator.
The "Paye was underutilized at M" argument doesn't make much sense to me - how do you define underutilized? Not enough sacks? Sacks are a sexy stat but even the best NFL DE's go up and down on sacks from year to year, because the difference between a QB hit and a sack is dependent on more than just how good the DE is, like the coverage, double teams drawn, etc. He had more responsibilities inside and played a fair amount of DT on the third and long rush packages, so he was basically a guy that was only subbed for when he needed a breather - he was utilized plenty.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:00 PM ^
Who was his WR coach in '17?
He didn't have a WR coach in 2017. Some random grad assistant was coaching WRs that year. What a disaster for a freshman WR with all the athleticism you could hope for but in need of technique and fundamentals...
August 10th, 2021 at 1:39 PM ^
So how in the world did JMFH let this happen? You recruit an outstanding class of WRs, and basically throw a playbook at them and say line up for plays??? How many other schools decided that a WR coach is a luxury and where did we double up unlike other schools - did we have a fullbacks coach - wouldn't doubt it? Seriously, how did JH let this happen? For all you Harbaugh apologists, please chime in....
August 10th, 2021 at 3:34 PM ^
I'm more neutral than an apologist, but a somewhat erratic staff and head scratching hires have been a hallmark of the Harbaugh era.
Fisch, Wheatley, and Partridge departures all seemed to be unhappy departures, but you can argue they wanted promotions that were not available on staff or just wanted to move on. The Jim McElwain hire was an odd one but I suppose the WR's were a bit better that year?
The "Frey coaches tackles and TE's while Drevno coaches interior OL" in 2017 was the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard and I've never played or coached a down of football in my life. Lo and behold, that blew up after a season. Then last year they bring in Jean-Mary and Shoop who are zone guys to work with Don Brown and we had our worst D since Rich Rod. While there were many reasons why that D was bad, I think having coaches with conflicting philosophies and a guy (Shoop) who wasn't even coaching in person was a big part of it. This is on top of the "bring in 4 x 4-5* WR's and don't have a position coach" debacle (also in 2017).
Note that almost all of these happened after 2016 and Harbaugh making way too many changes to a program that was clearly on the rise - 2017 recruiting (for the 18 class) was where the holes of today's team started.
The Harbaugh era died with Curtis Samuel waltzing into the endzone in Columbus and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.
August 10th, 2021 at 5:37 PM ^
Here's what happened. From 2016 to 2017, we lost Fisch (Passing Game Coordinator) and Wheatley (RB). Jaybaugh switched from TE to RB to replace Wheatley (and added special teams duties), Pep came in and replaced Fisch as Passing Game Coordinator, and we brought in Frey to coach TEs (which Jaybaugh vacated) and OT, as it had become clear that Drevno couldn't handle coaching the entire OL on top of his OC duties.
Getting into the details, the real issue for the WRs was Pep. Although he nominally had the same position as Fisch (Passing Game Coordinator), the difference was that Fisch actually coached the WRs while Pep didn't, at all. We know this for a fact, it was confirmed by insiders, that the only "WR coach" in 2017 was grad assistant Drew Terrell. Whether Pep didn't know how to coach WRs, just didn't want to, or was told not to (essentially that the staff felt that the grad assistant was sufficient), I have no idea, but the end result is that Pep only coached QBs. He was a glorified QB coach that simply had a fancier title.
The reason this was such a problem was that assistant spots are limited (schools were only allowed nine assistants in 2017, increased to ten in 2018), and we already had a "QB coach" on the roster. Harbaugh is supposed to be a QB guru, so why he needed to bring in an additional assistant just to coach the QBs is beyond me. In an ideal world (like the NFL allows), sure, bring in as many coaches as you can. But with limited spaces, and a major position group (WRs) not having any dedicated coach, bringing in Pep to only coach the QBs was a luxury we couldn't afford.
This was somewhat exasperated by the makeup of other parts of the staff, the main culprit being the secondary. Unlike many (most?) schools that have a single DB coach, since Harbaugh arrived he's had one coach for CBs and another for safeties (finally changed this year to a single DB coach). That takes up two of the limited spots, one of which could have gone to a dedicated WR coach if Harbaugh was so hellbent on having a dedicated QB assistant too. The Offense/Defense split of the staff from 2015-2017, with five defensive assistants (including two for the secondary) and four offensive assistants makes sense if Harbaugh was considered a quasi-fifth offensive coach. But the most efficient way to spread that out would be for Harbaugh to handle the QBs himself, freeing up offensive assistants for at least the other main position groups (OL, RB, WR).
I should not that while the Drevno/Frey split (Drevno coaching interior OL and serving as OC while Frey coached OT and TE) was a complete disaster, I don't think it really played into the lack of a WR coach. Most schools have an OC and an OL coach, so having two coaches across those duties is a wash. Really, the bigger (biggest?) issue is overall dysfunctionality with the coaching staff makeup. Some positions had more coaches than most teams allocate. For example CB and S (two coaches when most schools get away with one), ST (in 2015 Baxter was the dedicated ST Coordinator, a position most schools forego, especially prior to the assistant cap increase in 2018), and Harbaugh's status as quasi QB coach/quasi OC, as he should have served as either the sole QB coach or sole OC. On the flip side, having Drevno trying to coach OL while serving as OC was disastrous, and there have been a few instances of moving coaches to positions they have little experience in (Jay from TE to RB, Partridge from LB to S, Moore from TE to OL and hiring Bellamy as a S coach instead of WR), which have ranged from head-scratching to downright panic inducing. Combine it all together and it's no wonder why there have been so many issues.
August 10th, 2021 at 11:33 AM ^
Valid criticism for player development at some positions and yes, we all feel like our WR talent was underutilized. DPJ is probably a good example at WR. That said, these same coaches took a nondescript, basketball recruit, Ronnie Bell, and turned him into a very productive and good receiver. So in some ways that's hard to reconcile.
As to Paye, for all of the criticism of "Don Brown's NE recruiting" Paye was a nondescript 3 star that the staff molded into a first round pick. And despite being very raw in HS, he was known as a technician by the time he left Michigan. As others have mentioned, Paye is a shining example of Michigan's D-line development and a strong counter-argument to those that complained about the NE recruiting (not that the strategy didn't have faults).
August 10th, 2021 at 11:49 AM ^
Its worth remembering that WR Devin Smith, first round pick from OSU, came into the NFL not having any clue how to run routes. It was cited numerous times that he couldn’t do anything other than go deep. We are not the only school to fail at preparing our guys for the NFL. Hopefully this new collection of coaches is more harmonious, and effective.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:12 PM ^
He was also coached by ball-lifting Zach Smith, who was by all accounts about as bad a position coach as he is a human being, which is not an accusation one should make lightly. In yet another cast of OSU failing upwards, as soon as Urbie replaced him with an actually good WR coach, their wideouts turned into the 80's Niners vs us.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:36 PM ^
Devin Smith was a second round draft pick.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:21 PM ^
So does Bell just teach himself? It also looks as thought Cornelius Johnson is developing nicely.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:27 PM ^
In DPJ's rookie year there was concerns about him not running a full compliment of route trees. Apparently he ran 5 in HS not the usual 7. This was a 5 star freak, an early enrollee, the biproduct of doctors with a near 4.0 GPA, and he couldn't learn 2 additional route trees in 9 months?
Where is the onus there on the player or the coaches?
DJP's best year was his sophomore year when we had a dedicated wr's coach - Jim McElwain.
The biggest discrepancy between OSU and UM may be the assistant coaches. We haven't had a marquise assistant since Mattison.
- WR's - Hartline > nothing
- Dline - Larry Johnson > Nua
- Oline - Greg Studrawa > Warriner/Moore
Moore is a good recruiter but a first time Oline coach so time will tell.
August 10th, 2021 at 12:48 PM ^
Wow, that's crazy
August 10th, 2021 at 12:50 PM ^
UM not having a WR coach the last two years absolutely hurt some players' development, and I brought it up multiple times as a reason why the offense sputtered in 2019 and 2020. But other WRs were in that same room and showed improvements. Nico Collins improved and developed, Ronnie Bell improved and developed, and DPJ was fed the ball quite a bit. He wasn't ignored out there, and if anything it felt like they tried to force the offense through him at times. And yet, he never led the team in catches for the year or recorded a 100 yard game in 37 games played.
I'm happy he's getting better coaching in the pros, and hopefully the Browns can unearth his potential and he's successful. But some of this narrative seems to be damage control from Jones and his family for him underachieving at Michigan beyond failures at the coaching side.
August 10th, 2021 at 1:13 PM ^
"But some of this narrative seems to be damage control from Jones and his family for him underachieving at Michigan beyond failures at the coaching side."
Not really. The Uncle has said nothing publicly, just to me privately, on the situation and I dont remember DPJ ever saying a word regarding the quality of his "coaching" at Michigan (or lack thereof).
Last year there were multiple reports from Browns coaches at how shocked they were at his lack of knowledge in the most basic of WR skills and just how incredibly raw he was. Unless you think he's one of those players resistant to coaching (and by all indications here in CLE that's not the case) you have to put this on the coaches.
August 10th, 2021 at 2:05 PM ^
DPJ's uncle literally tweeted about it 10 days ago. He's also tweeted about it a couple of others times, blaming QBs and the play calling. So no, it's definitely been made publicly, even if he's not super-prominent. So no, it definitely feels a bit like a narrative being pushed by the uncle (I have no idea if DPJ knows about any of this).
I agree he didn't get great coaching with a dedicated WR coach; at the same time, other guys on the roster had the same situation and performed better. DPJ, I believe, had the most or second-most targets on the team the last two years he was there when he saw the field (he was injured early on in 2019). He had opportunities and yet never established himself. By comparison, Nico Collins absolutely looked like a stud at the end of 2019 and (had COVID not screwed up last season's timing) probably would have had a good last year as well.
Also, the fact DPJ was so raw coming out of college was sort of my point - I think he came to UM sort of expecting to dominate physically and his route running and hands struggled to develop. Again, guys like Bell, Collins, hell even Black before the injuries piled up, looked better in their route-running and development. DPJ had his moments but I read enough rumors during those years to believe that at least some of that blame for failing to develop was on DPJ. Now, falling to the 6th round is a shock to anyone's system, and it looks like he's making improvements and I'm happy for him. But "look at how raw he seemed; it's like he never learned how to be a WR" can be an indictment both of the coaches AND the player.
August 10th, 2021 at 2:23 PM ^
Fair enough. I'm sure at least some of the issues were his - nothing is 100%
August 10th, 2021 at 9:54 AM ^
Do you mean in the way that Jim Harbaugh has limited the football program from becoming championship quality?
August 10th, 2021 at 9:55 AM ^
Brown's defense: no. The necessity of playing the DEs in B gaps because the DTs were so weak: yes. The whole defense was bent around the fact that the DTs were outgunned.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:16 AM ^
2017 DL core hurt the pogram in so many ways with the number of busts we had. Attrition screwed us.
DL (specifically DTs) became Harbaugh's kryptonite just as OL became Hoke's kryptonite.
August 10th, 2021 at 10:44 AM ^
I upvoted you.... but to be clear... DT to Harbaugh... and OT to Hoke... It was the OT that did Hoke in...kept recruiting inside guys and having to kick out the best ones to tackle because the tackles failed.... Newsome injury and then Tulley-Tillman's expulsion, and we had no depth.
August 10th, 2021 at 11:33 AM ^
But wasn't it Brown who didn't really want to recruit big guys in the middle?
August 10th, 2021 at 9:58 AM ^
Wasn't it Don Brown that wanted him on the team?
On Monday, Warwick (R.I.) Bishop Hendricken 2017 three-star defensive end/linebacker Kwity Paye flipped his commitment from Boston College to Michigan. Paye originally committed to U-M defensive coordinator Don Brown when he was still with the Eagles, and decided to follow him to Ann Arbor after the Michigan staff picked up their interest.
Brown has had a knack for finding diamonds in the rough; he had to rely on them to build the nation's top defense last season at BC.
The entire D Line dropped off in play after Greg Mattison left. Don Brown didn't hire his replacement.
Don Brown had him at DE. Did you want him at LB and play like Josh Uche?
August 10th, 2021 at 10:18 AM ^
Brown had plenty of flaws, but the dude could identify the hell out of defensive ends.