247 article on Michigan basketball
https://247sports.com/longformarticle/transfer-snafus-nil-shenanigans-and-an-empty-roster-why-michigan-210421495/#2169997
Article basically sums up the current situation. We need to get this problem fixed ASAP! If this was a football issue everyone would be losing thier minds. Beilein built this program from the lowest of lows and made it an elite program. Howard may not be the coach we thought he was but he will never be given a chance to succeed if his arms continue to be tied. If this continues, the athletic department deserves equal blame as Howard for the lack of success. What kind of coach will want to come here if Howard is canned?
Off the top of my head, the major admissions hiccups that I recall for basketball and football:
Demar Dorsey (2010) - Basically the beginning of the end for the RichRod era, after a pretty well documented fissure between different UM factions.
Xavier Worthy (2020-21) - After Michigan's worst year under Harbaugh, one of the crown jewels of the class is denied admission. Also at a time where Harbaugh's support in some circles had fully eroded.
Terrance Shannon (2022) - The season right after Juwan's incident in Wisconsin. Again, prior to that season, Howard had all the factions behind him, but after there was the "clutch the pearls" faction worried about the university's image.
Caleb Love (2023) - After Howard's worst season and first time missing the Tournament (and Sweet 16), his prized transfer is turned away.
Not saying that there is some sort of conspiracy here, but it does make you wonder...
EDIT: I forgot about Papa Kante (2023).
...and Nojel Eastern.
Transfers are WAY different than enrollees.
Seth and Brian did a decent job explaining what was most-likely behind both the Love and Shannon issues on the WTKA roundtable this AM if you want to listen. Not that it is a good thing but this is something that has been known and goes beyond just athletes, If something is going to happen there it will have to be instigated by Santa O. -- even if it is an Athletes-only change in the university rules.
Admission - M has essentially the same minimal entry requirements as pretty much any other school in the B1G for athletes. What MAY be different is that M apparently limits how many "exceptions" they will allow. There may be politics involved on what that limit is and RichRod definitely tried to push those limits as far as he could.... As for your specific examples:
-Dorsey may have been an "exceeded the max exceptions" casualty but given his football path post Michigan there may have been issues being below the minimum of any P5 schools -- (I know he ended up in Juco but may have done USF or similar for a year before?)
- Pretty sure Worthy was a f#$%-up by Michigan's recruiting staff - which is probably why Dudek left in the aftermath. It had to do with X's early enrollment - either there wasn't space or M mistakenly thought he had cleared all the academic hurdles to be an EE at Michigan and didn't realize it until he showed up in AA. (Sam noted that M was working to bend the system for the Worthy situation but before they got anywhere he decided to go elsewhere.)
- Kante didn't meet M's academic standards for admissions. All details I have seen is it had to do primarily with his ESL ability - which MAY need to be reviewed for athletes by M compared to other schools (given athletes have all the extra academic resources available to them it should matter less). Fortunately this isn't something that comes up too often and wasn't an issue with Khayat, Diabate etc. so he is a bit of a "unicorn"
Don’t forget Moritz Wagner had some issue with meeting ESL requirements, which were obviously worked out. I don’t recall any issues with Franz, though.
I don't get why so many fans turn on Howard. He's only a few years removed from National Coach of the Year, and we would probably still be talking about how great this season was if Juwan had the team he thought he'd have: Diabate, Houstan, Jett, Dickinson, Collins, Kobe... that's a pretty solid line-up right there. Yet some Michigan fans ignore how the season turned on what little Howard could control: unexpected departures of guys that could/should have been stars in their sophomore year.
Howard had the misfortune of following JB.
He slapped a (player is incorrect) coach - not a good day.
He achieved what he achieved with JB players.
The 5 Stars have not lived up to the play including his own son.
Izzo down the road gets what seems like 7 years from his guys (hyperbole)
Howard is where he is with his recruits.
I loved the FAB 5 I want this to work but the roster management is all on Juwan - Admissions was admissions under JB.
Truth.
Slapped a coach, if it was a player he would have been gone a long time ago.
Corrected
But not the correct thing to do.
And with this team, he was 2 games out of first place in the B1G with two games to go that were OT losses. For want of a few more points throughout the season, this year's team could have been B1G champs. If Collins stayed, I think Michigan would have at least tied for season championship, even with Diabate and Houstan gone. That's not failure.
"He achieved what he achieved with JB players."
Will this never end?
No, he did not. Dickinson, Wagner, Smith, and Brown, all key contributors to Howard's best season, were not "JB players." (And, no, Wagner doesn't count as a JB player. His only two years were under Howard.)
Franz doesn't play at Michigan if not for John Beilein. Arguing otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.
Your statement may or may not be true -- clearly Mo's playing here made a huge difference. But Franz definitely doesn't play at Michigan if not for Juwan Howard. Don't you remember that he was extremely close to remaining in Europe given the coaching uncertainty, and then Juwan goes in and reassures him to seal the deal? It was only a few years ago.
Here's the actual story, to make you feel more intellectually honest:
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2019/07/09/michigan-basketball-franz-wagner-juwan-howard-saddi-washington/1680264001/
Arguing that he was a JB player is intellectually dishonest. JB quit while Franz and his parents were at the airport on their way here for an official visit. Franz doesn't play at Michigan if not for Saddi, who, with Howard's help, managed to save that recruitment.
Wow! Another person who doesn't know about sports or the way things work and puts all blame on Howard. This is old and tiresome. Many things are out of his control, players transferring because they want more playing time or scared of competition or bad advice from parents. Then he develops players and makes them NBA players and draftable in the first round. He recruits 5 stars like every one was wanting when he arrived. Everyone was so excited over our #1 recruiting class. 2 players left earlier then they should have but Juwan has no control of that. Then admissions or whoever does or controls transfers screws up and doesn't let players in that could get in other places. But if you read the article some other places can't get everyone they want either due to circumstances. Then everyone acts like JB was so great and he was but he had some bad years also and you could easily say it was his fault if you guys are using the same logic in blaming JH. Everyone acts like JB would be successful if he stayed at Michigan but that is false that is the whole reason he left is because of the way CB is going. Michigan hamstrung as we can't recruit certain players or get players available in the portal. We essentially have to take only grad transfers or freshman. I am a diehard Michigan fan and alum and the way people talk on here about JH and other things is very sad to read at times. Uninformed information with little knowledge of sports in general and how things operate when it comes to sports. Not everyone on here is like that there are many smart and great people on here but the last few days every one bashing JH and blaming it on him doesn't know anything. Do you know what goes behind the scenes? No you don't , I do and that's why I am defending him. So until everyone knows what is really going on quit bashing JH. This problem is not on him when it comes to admissions.
Beilein left bc he didn't want to deal with what Howard is willfully dealing with. And that was before COVID, transfer rule changes, and NIL. Howard is basically living Beilein's coaching nightmare. That's why I give Juwan a ton of slack.
Did John Beilein win the National Coach of the Year with those guys? I'm very confused when I look at who was coaching and who was playing.
Mother F this argument and anyone who uses it as an excuse against Howard. The players do not coach themselves, no matter how good they are--which is why little Duke boy is struggling with elite 5-stars at the two deep.
Franz only played for and developed under Juwan Motherfucking Howard. Not the guy who left to coach the Cavs. Hunter only played for Juwan. Chaundee only played for Juwan. Mike Smith only played for Howard at Michigan. Austin Davis never played under Beilein and did not become a contributor until JB left; he was always in JB's dog house.
Adrien Nunez never played under either and never became anything at M but a good teammate and shirt designer (arguably).
Livers and Brooks are the only two JB guys that had anything to do with that season's successes, yet people keep going back to diminishing Howard and showing their ignorance.
Both were decent guys under JB that never became stars under JB. Nor did they do anything but max potential out under Howard's coaching. Livers was a bench guy that showed potential, and then because the defacto 4.
Eli was a terrible, terrible, terrible 3pt shooter under JB. He shot UNDER 30% his first two years. His best two years were under Howard, but yeah--it was all JB that magically made Eli a competent 3pt shooter by year 4 and 5.
Probably because the roster construction has been bad for a while, and the team is often just not fun to watch. It looks like everything is so difficult. Things like inbounding the ball, making good passes or executing a reasonably competent offense would look impossible for long stretches of the game.
Inbounding the ball was an adventure on those Beilein teams also. And his teams also suffered those long stretches without scoring also.
As time passes, we forget "fire Beilein" was a thing in early 2017. And he was only here for more two years after that. I liked him, but Beilein won only two regular season conference titles (one outright) and those are the only times they finished higher than third in the standings.
The difference between the two is that Juwan's guys are leaving earlier than they should. If Trey doesn't come back for his sophomore year, we're not talking about "the block was clean". If Moussa and Caleb would've come back, we might have had an entertaining March.
This is a good point, though I think one thing people appreciate about Beilein that is not really observable with Howard yet is the deep talent IDing. Part of the reason of course is that obviously Howard only has 3 classes and they've generally been full of elite talent. For Beilein, Brooks, Livers, Levert, DJ Wilson, Dunc, MAAR, Teske were all ranked in the low 100's or significantly below as recruits so it felt like he was always pulling guys out of the ether and turning them either into good college or bona fide NBA players. So far Howard's lowest ranked guys have been his son Jace who I think has had a fine career for his ranking, and Tschetter. Incidentally, the most unplayable guys Juwan has signed have been Glenn and Barnes and Zeb, all of whom were in the solid 4 star range.
If Wagner counts as a "Beilein guy" (which, to some people, is unbelievably the case), Zeb has to go in that category, too.
If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike
Beilein teams were a thousand times worse at inbounding the ball in late game situations. That was one of the most bizarre features of his tenure.
Losing 5 stars after one year is not unexpected.
These are the same clowns that wanted Harbaugh out.
Some people love being negative.
Recruit 1 fucking shooter. Just 1.
Broken record here but people defending Juwan can you please explain what he values in his positions 1-4 when he recruits?
I haven't turned on Howard, I don't think he's on the hot seat, and I don't blame him for recruiting guys like Houstan, Diabate, Jett, and Kobe who all seemed to go pro a little too early.
But also the exact same thing has happened 3 times now and that's pretty inexcusable.
Nojel Eastern a 2017 recruit, commits in the spring of 2020 after his 3rd season at Purdue
Terrance Shannon a 2019 recruit, commits in the spring of 2022 after his 3rd season at TT
Caleb Love a 2020 recruit, commits in the spring of 2023 after his 3rd season at UNC
In all of those cases, Michigan's staff assumed they were getting a guy who was very near graduation and would come on as a grad transfer. In all of those cases, the original school was understandably not keen to help the player graduate and so those 3 players do not have degrees from the universities they originally played at. In all 3 cases, Michigan's staff held the mistaken belief that things would just sort of work out, the player would graduate, and then join Michigan over the summer.
Its baffling they keep getting burned by the same exact situation. It's a waste of time and resources to recruit guys based on a wish and a prayer that Michigan will accept 90 credits when the policy is in place they accept a max of 60. Yes we know Illinois and a lot of other schools have a more lenient policy, but while the rule exists, the staff needs to 1. follow the rule and 2. work to change it. Don't just bring a guy in and expect exceptions will be granted.
You can look at the smoldering mess of a roster we have fresh off an NIT appearance and you don’t see why fans have issues with Juwan?!?
I love Juwan as a player and a person, but I have no idea if he is a good college coach or not. Clearly he has coaching ability, but the roster construction has been totally dysfunctional. Not all of that is his fault of course , but he’s had too many missteps of his own making in that department for me to be at all optimistic about his future at Michigan.
"You can look at the smoldering mess of a roster we have fresh off an NIT appearance and you don’t see why fans have issues with Juwan?!?"
Way to talk to yourself. The problem is your hyperbolic aggrandizement of the problem ("smoldering mess") and your false narrative of defenders ("don't see why fans have issues") is the problem.
You create this false, simplistic premise of fandom, whereas defending against bad, empirically empty arguments made against Howard means we are defending all of Howard's coaching and the roster issues. It's simply untrue.
Yeah, the roster looks ugly right now and next season is hard to imagine going well. Yeah, Juwan needs to do better to retain guys or have guys on speed dial that can come here. That doesn't speak to his abilities and to CONSISTENTLY attack Howard for the good he's done.
Your post, and the plethora of posts it imitates, exemplifies living life in hyper-panic, please me right right now or it all ends horrible mode every...single...day.
The University of Michigan is, first and foremost, a world-class academic institution of higher learning. UM is also a top-flight athletic institution, but athletics will always take a back seat to academics. Transferring credits from inferior universities for a handful of student-athletes will do nothing to impact the reputation of the University. Making exceptions for that handful of student-athletes will have a greater impact. Giving special treatment to transferring student-athletes sets a bad precedent - if student-athletes receive special waivers for their credits, why not give the same privilege to children of donors, children of alumni, or those who are part of historically disadvantaged groups? If the University allows many groups to transfer credits from inferior institutions, that will have an impact on the academic reputation of the University.
I thought I read that Love had somewhere around a 3.3 gpa. I get that UM is a good school but I don't think you should need to be a Rhodes Scholar to play basketball. Illinois thought Shannon was good enough academically. UNC thought that Love was good enough academically. Why aren't they able to transfer to Michigan?
Because Michigan is extremely particular about which credits transfer. Love could probably get in, but if he loses half his credits, why deal with that when he can go to Stanford and not lose his credits.
Well
Tarheels never have to do their own homework so...
The point is that almost all of these are clearly NOT from "inferior" institutions. Seth routinely talks about his experience of not getting credits transferred from the Sorbonne, the best University in France that dates back to the 13th century. Also, Caleb Love comes from North Carolina, ranked literally ONE SPOT below the University of Michigan in global rankings.
The real point is the PERCEPTION of superiority based on very little more than attitude. It's embarrassing, honestly, because there is no principle to defend other than "I think I am better than you are."
Finally, as a two-time alumnus, I can personally attest to the fact that admissions allows plenty of cretins and fools who really do much more to shame the University than a star athlete who took classes with the wrong names.
For one thing, schools like UNC and aren't "inferior institutions"; they're top-notch academic schools with perfectly demanding course loads. I don't think college academic rankings are bulletproof that Wake Forest (where Chaundee Brown transferred from) is tied with NC at #29 in the USNWR national rankings while UM is #25. So this idea that UM is some castle on a hill that would never deign to allow a student from *snort* North Carolina to receive comparable class credits is silly.
And more generally Michigan's credit transfer system screws over students generally, only there isn't MGoAccounting or MGoCivilEngineering blogs out there chronicling when it happens. I understand wanting to maintain a certain level of academic credibility, but academic peers like UCLA, UVa, Cal, Notre Dame, etc. take transfers and don't seem to lose academic standing. It doesn't mean you have to open the flood gates but (a) you still have to be admitted to the school prior to transferring in credits, so there's been a determination academically about your abilities already and (b) there are enough stories I've read and also experienced at UM to lead me to believe that a number of these decisions are based more on arbitrary distinctions than meaningful ones. The point Seth made in the roundtable about how MSU once being on a trimester system and thus those class credits only being considered at 2/3 a UM credit is a good example. Either the material was taught or it wasn't, and instead basing it on how the class hours were spread out seems somewhat arbitrary. And the cynic in me would argue the larger reason UM might be stingy with credits is because the more classes you have to take at UM the more money they can collect in tuition and associated fees, which can be in the 10s of thousands per semester.
Papa Kante, an example from the article, is different because there's always guys who don't qualify academically at schools, and oftentimes that's that the NCAA Clearinghouse level moreso than the individual schools.
I know there's a contingent on this blog that believes admissions are above reproach but this has been a consistent issue. UM's transfer "bonanza" in football this offseason was still mostly due to a number of grad transfers and true freshmen, the two groups who are least affected by credit transfer issues. I don't think there should be preferential treatment around credits given to athletes but instead a more general readjustment and recalibration of transfer credits for all students that doesn't penalize people to a severe degree.
I'd only add that we're all so Michigan-focused, that it's unlikely most of us know what problems other schools (like Stanford, Northwestern, etc.) encounter. It's quite possible their admissions departments are every bit as demanding as ours. Perhaps there are fewer controversies because they're better at communicating potential problems before they arise.
In any event, hell, is Stanford kicking ass at basketball these days? Is Harvard? Is Northwestern?
The suggestion that Michigan is uniquely hamstrung by its admissions department seems unlikely, to me. And, yes, I'd rather be known for being a genuinely prestigious university than for the success of our sports teams. (Though, those times where we can be known for both are pretty legitimately awesome).
I agree that being Michigan-focused we don't see other schools and their struggles, and UM is not the only school hamstrung. But I looked at UCLA this year and they got a sophomore basketball transfer from Utah who doesn't appear to be a grad, Georgia Tech got at least 2 guys who are sophomore-ish eligibilty, and UVa took a sophomore from Georgetown this year. Those are all comparable academic institutions who, I presume, figured it out. Stanford and Northwestern probably don't take a ton of transfers but, and I mean this as a proud UM alum, Michigan ain't Stanford academically. We can quibble more about NW in certain respects but that's still an elite private school. Michigan is a large public institution, and so it shouldn't make it THAT hard for people to continue their education there, whether they be athletes or not.
Isn't the issue having upperclassmen transfer and not necessarily freshmen/sophomores? Josiah Stewart isn't a freshman and he's transferred in just fine.
We can be both and all it takes is a little effort and changes by admissions. Because we are definitely hamstrung when it comes to transfers in sports.
I find it strange that we find NIL deals, pay for scholarships, pay for food, room and board but transferring in credits from UNC classes is a step too far. Maybe people are right sometimes about the insufferable Michigan arrogance.
People are 100% right about the arrogance.
It's fucking absurd that we couldn't find away to make Loves credits transfer.
Admissions is fucked at Michigan. I understand that we're a prestigious institution of higher learning, but you can't tell me something can't be done.
Duke is a fairly prestigious institution as well, and they somehow let Kyrie Irving into the school...
Admissions should be tarred and feathered
"Yea but our degrees are still intact" is feeling more and more like "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?".
On top of all this , hearing Phil Martelli tell Sam multiple times , “ if they ask about NIL before visiting , they are turned off “ ! They need to wake the F up
They should be turned off if that is the first thing a recruit or transfer asks. That tells you one they will most likely transfer if a better NIL deal comes up or money offer and 2nd it tells you that basketball and becoming a great teammate and development to become an NBA player isn't the first thing on their mind. Most athletes will be hungrier and want to improve and get better if they are not receiving money already. Athletes today are already to entitled and give them money on top of that before doing anything on campus is absurd to me. NIL to me was not supposed to be this way. You were supposed to play for a school then earn NIL not get paid to come to school. Changes need to be made but NCAA is a bunch of pus**** and won't do anything about it.
Basketball is hard god damned work.
Basketball is a very lucrative revenue stream for U of M.
What work do you do for free where someone else collects huge sums of cash?
Eff this damn blog today.
The admissions department at Michigan really seems to just get a kick out of being elitist for the sake of it. UNC is a great school and the admissions department is gonna try to look down their nose at them. Why? You're telling me the academic curriculum for athletes at Michigan is sooo much better than UNC? Please
Terrance Shannon wasn't good enough for UofM but Illinois found a way? Illinois is basically a peer institution to Michigan. The admissions department really just thinks way too highly of themselves
Idle thought...if both Terrence Shannon and Caleb Love were at Michigan, does Hunter stay? How good is the team this year with those 3 players? Top 20? Top 15?