Interesting Convo about Rodriguez and Michigan Football
First, let me start off by saying: I hate to be 'that guy' who shares a "I ran into a someone in the know…", because this really isn't scoop or necessarily is new information; but, I'll share this story anyway because I think it was interesting enough. (Hey, at least it beats an expansion thread.)
As I was waiting to board my flight to Atlanta tonight, I was wearing my 'Strike a Pose' t-shirt (shameless MGoPlug) and my Adidas Michigan hat. My outfit must have really stood out because I was approached by two gentlemen on two separate occasions. (The first guy was from Columbus... Blah blah, you know how that conversation went "When are you going to get good again to make the rivalry meaningful… blah, blah." I then diffused the situation by discussing Nebraska.)
The second guy, was much more interesting (aka not from Columbus.) He approached me shortly after the Columbus guy, then looked me in the eyes and said, in a fairly stern tone, "You guys ought to hold onto Coach Rodriguez. He's the best coach in the country, bar none. Stick by him and you'll be winning a big ten championship every other year." I was caught completely off guard. I expect most people to either ask me first about what my opinion of RR is or they just flat out open up with something negative about Rich Rodriguez. (I wear a lot of Michigan attire, so I get into these conversations with random people all the time.)
After talking to him a bit, I found out he played football at WVU (Bobby Bowden's last year at WVU.) He had met Rich Rodriguez when Rodriguez was coach at WVU. Apparently they're good enough friends that he came to a couple of games at the Big House (the ND game this past year, in particular.) When we talked about the ND game, he pulled up some photos on his phone of him, RR, Rita, and Tony Gibson.
We talked a little bit about the hack job the Freep pulled on Rodriguez and how a few disgruntled players/people within or close to the program led to this jihad. According to the guy, he seemed to feel there were/are definitely dissenters from within the program who haven't liked Rich Rodriguez since day one and are looking to drive him out. Not only are they not helping the program, but they're holding it back. But, as we all say, the wins will quiet the doubters.
He kept emphasizing how great Rich Rodriguez was at taking raw, undeveloped talent, and churning out NFL athletes. He sees the same happening at Michigan… only the type of talent RR has to work with is leaps and bounds better than he had at WVU.
He made one interesting comment that had me thinking. We started talking about the whole "lack of talent" on defense when RR first came to Michigan. Not only did he say we were short on depth (obvious), he also said that the players just weren't even in any shape ready to play football. He said even a guy as phenomenal as BG would have struggled to compete for playing time at WVU, because he simply wasn't in the right shape. I'm not sure how true that point is, but I still found it interesting nonetheless. The best comment he made on this front was to point out that if guys are leaving because they can't handle the workouts (ahem*Boren*ahem)… that could actually be viewed as a good sign. 1) Someone with less work ethic is no longer a distraction and 2) It shows you're effective at strengthening a previous weakness.
His feelings on the season weren't too reassuring, but not bad either. He thinks Michigan will win 7 maybe 8, starting off similar to last year but finishing somewhat stronger. He's also a huge fan of our AD.
He said he still keeps in touch with RR and even spoke to him as recently as a couple of weeks ago, I told him that I hope RR knows there is a large number of Michigan fans who support him, and want him to succeed at Michigan. He appreciated that. We shook hands and said our Go Blues.
Take from this what you want, I just figured I'd share since it was a rather interesting conversation I had with someone who was a friend of Coach Rodriguez himself. He's the second (technically 3rd if you count a swimmer) WVU athlete I've met, and all sing RR's praises.
is, or was, perfect as a coach. Far from it. That wasn't the point of the post. The bottom line, at this late date, is no one is going to change the mind of the RR haters (they might tolerate him easier if he wins - but I guarantee you if he wins enough to keep his job - and God almighty, I hope he does - those that don'e like him will find some reason he doesn't measure up), and no one is going to change the mind of the LC haters. That is verified by the responses we see here.
I respect Bo and what he did for Michigan football. I respect Washington, and Lincoln, Jackie Robinson, Rosa Parks, and Edison and soldiers, for what they accomplished. I don't live in a vacuum. If I want to know about forming a government, I might want to know what Jefferson, or Madison, or Adams had to say. If I wanted to know about how badly people can treat other people, I might want to hear what Robinson or Parks had to say. If I want to know about football, or building a program, or rebuilding a program, I would want to know what Bo, or Bryant, or Paterno, or Parsegian had to say about it.
Keep your head in the sand. I do respect Bo, and I miss his being around. And I don't make any apologies for it.
November 2007 story after yet another loss by Coach Carr to Ohio State:
"The four consecutive losses to Ohio State, matched Michigan's longest losing streak in the storied series, and Carr became the first coach in school history to lose six times in seven years in the rivalry." http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3117704
3-13 in the Big Ten past two years speaks for itself too then doesn't it?
Carr's record speaks for itself:
122-40
5 Big Ten championships
1 National championship
It's starting to bum me out a bit that everyone's focusing on the LC/RR rift. I really just wanted to bring to light some positive information about RR and not negative about LC. I love LC and thoroughly revere him.
I just wanted to let people know that a guy who knows football, was coached by Bowden, said that RR will turn things around, he's a fantastic coach. Is he biased? Absolutely, but I don't care. I'll quote Scarface from Half baked, "I believe him bee, I don't know why yo, I just do."
Good morning. It's a beautiful Friday in the nation's capitol.
Maybe it's just me, but y'all might get negged, not for the reason you suggest, but because the original dude never mentioned Carr. Y'all mentioned Carr. No where in the original post did it say that Carr didn't like FIRERICHROD (I'm using his formal name here.) There certainly was no complaining about Carr's time as the Michigan head coach.
In fact, kip27 just starts in with all sorts of things that were never mentioned, oddly while he is complaining that the original dude is picking at old wounds. Carr has nothing to do with discussion anymore (and I see no reason that publically supporting Carr is verboten.) Bo CERTAINLY has nothing to do with this discussion.
It's put up or shutup time for FIRERICHROD and let's hope he gets it done and his name can go back to just RichRod. From here on out, it's on him.
Oh. I read the original post fifty times to make sure. You can't possibly expect me to read like the entire thread can you? I mean I got stuff to say and I need to say it fast. My apologies.
Anyways, blaming Carr is pointless. Michigan never went anything like 3-8 with Carr as coach so you can't blame him for this. Blame transition if you must blame something.
Stop being rational.
... but even Coach Rod would be the first to admit that it's past time for talk. More like time for this (but insert real opponent):
is 8-16, pure and simple. We can argue from now until doomsday about the reasons for 8-16 and who gets the blame, but people are fooling themselves if they think that the RR-haters would be as noisy and well-publicized if the record was reversed with a victory or two against MSU and OSU. It would be an RR lovefest, and the efforts of Rosenberg wouldn't make a difference.
Woody Hayes was a cantankerous prick, but because he won far more games than he lost, the OSU fans loved him. Much the same can be said about his former assistant who coached that team up north. Nick Saban is currently a demi-god in Tuscaloosa, but that guy is the biggest zero from a personality warmth standpoint I've ever seen wearing a coach's headset. If he failed to produce, the Bama fans would turn on him in a heartbeat. Look at Weis—the first year he was a golden boy, and the Domers all thought he was the second coming of Knute Rockne and Ara Parsegheian. He started losing games, and they tossed him aside like last week's fish.
and are in solid contention for a Big Ten title, people will be coming out of the woodwork to sing RR's praises, including plenty of former UM players who have remained silent until now. And it's time for RR supporters to stop referencing LC in the context of this team. We all know the roster issues that RR inherited when he got here, and like Brian, I'm willing to give him somewhat of a mulligan on 2008. It's now the third year of the RR era, and it's time to produce.
I'll take all the positive stories I can get. I don't care if the guy is Coach Rod's brother. Thanks for sharing.
As a die hard Michigan fan living in Columbus, I will attest the smart OSU fans do really fear what this "New' Michigan can bring and is capable of. They are well aware of the place of evolution in football. They do see that their luck will eventually run out and they won't dominate the Big Ten forever. OSU's "munch mode" offensive scheme won't be able to keep up with a Michigan team that can score 35 pts a game.
One of my best friends is a die-hard OSU fan. He fears what Michigan will do if Rodriguez is given enough time.
Valenti and the grunt-speaking ilk - there's an odd, unspoken fear that lurks beneath the surface...
Great story. But BG would eat every West Virginia player alive. And then eat West Virginia
Smart OSU fans? They must be the ones without Buckstaches.
a friend of mine ran into RR in the parking lot at Zingerman's Roadhouse. he talked to him for like 15 minutes about Zingerman's Roadhouse. take from this what you want.
Someone told him how great the product out of Niman Ranch is, and he had to see for himself.
What's his favorite entree?
it was his first time there. that's why the conversation centered on the roadhouse itself. he was there for a UM hospital transplant center benefit dinner.
If Rich Rod started out 16-8, this would all irrelevant. Reality is he is 8-16 and with that record has opened himself and his program to attacks from both inside and out. He has to win this year, or he will not survive the winter ahead.
I really enjoyed reading this post. I am a big fan of RR's, even moreso with all the negativity, and I really think he will turn the corner if given the chance.
Thank you for sharing. It was refreshing to hear.
I swear someone has posted that exact same story on here before. Anyone remember that?
It sounds very similar to a conversation I had with a gentleman and posted about a few weeks ago.
whether at Michigan, Alabama, Nebraska or wherever . This thread is interchangable with the discussion on Nebraska boards a few years ago. So similar--new guy tasked to "fix" a program averaging 9 wins, but "doesn't respect traditions",cherished streaks and records being lost, fans divided etc.
I have no idea if RR is the "answer" or if there was any "problem" other than continuing Michigan's tradition of excellence. It was amazing to see Nebraska immediately get back on track with coach Pellini, on the other hand Nick Saban went 2-6 his first year at Alabama.
One thing's for sure, your school's current dropoff is a momentary blip. If RR doesn't get it done, somebody else will.
...and he was a great coach for Michigan (and an even better man) but he is no coaching legend. If he had 10 more years under his belt and hadn't succumbed to Tressel, he'd likely have "legend" status, but I don't think he's legendary. Bo is a legend. Decades from now, the average college football fan will probably know who Bo was, but not Lloyd.
from a Nebraska fan.
Lloyd Carr had a 75.3 wp, averaged 9 wins a season, won your first NC since 1948, won the BT 5/13 seasons.
Bo had a 79.5 wp, averaged 9 wins a season, no NC's but won the BT 13/21 seasons.
So Bo won the BT more often but Carr won a NC, pretty even on the rest. Why more love for Bo? I've heard this from lots of Michigan fans.
I do mean Bo when I say "replacing a legend", but seems like Lloyd's #'s came as close as anyone could to meeting Bo's standards, even surpassed with the 1 NC. Hard even for a Michigan to have back-to-back legends.That's why their referred to as legends.
Nebraska was very fortunate to have Tom Osborne (83.5%) follow Bob Devaney (82.9%), but one of the reasons we took a dip the last 10 years was thinking this was normal for Nebraska, when in fact they were legends and that level of success is the exception, not the rule is for the best of programs.
"Why more love for Bo?"
I've never been able to answer that question. Part of it may have had to do with how often Bo proactively set the table by declaring "Our goal is to win the Big 10 championship!" This was usually a response to questions like "Where do you think your team ranks nationally?"
Eventually, most Michigan fans may have come around to Bo's world view and stopped caring about all the bowl losses. I can't imagine Lloyd (not to mention RichRod) getting those sorts of breaks.
Maybe Bo was smart. In most years that was easily the path of least resistance. He was looking at one big-time school on the schedule. He may as well have said "Our goal is to beat a bunch of mediocre teams from the Upper Midwest!" Doesn't sound quite as good, does it?
stopped caring about the bowl record while he was coaching. After he was finished, it became largely irrelevant. I don't have the stat book in front of me, but Bo lost what, 48 games? 22 of those games were by 3 points or less. He was the winningest coach, and Michigan had more wins than any other division 1 school in the 70's. (What have you done for me lately?) Won more than Switzer, more than Osborne, more than Paterno, Bear, & Woody in the 70's. The 80's brought his average down. If half of those three point games turned the other way, he may have had a couple of championships. But it wasn't to be. I guess some would say he could not win the close ones. (I don't know how many 3 point or less victories he had, compared to the losses.)
Big Ten championships and national championships - I think he wanted both very much. He had control over the big ten championship. But not really over the national championship - which was determined by vote, as much as by what happened on the field. But he didn't look back - he did not lose any sleep over it (if you believe him when he says that). Certainly not as we fans do.
As a Michigan fan, I'll gladly accept a national championship in exchange for a higher percentage of conference championships.
You have to admit though, that when Bo was coaching, the only way to a National Championship was by winning the Big Ten, and then the Rose Bowl, and then the vote. It just so happened that what it took to win the Big Ten, didn't do much in the way of preparation for post season success.
Granted, that is still pretty much what you have to do today. So I guess I would prefer winning more Big Ten Championships and winning more National Championships.
Like it or not, the BCS has allowed the NC to be settled on the field rather than a hypothetical matchup between 2 teams that will never play. In Bo's era it was more politics, TV, and glamour that got NC's crowned than today. That's not saying it doesn't happen now by getting a #1 & #2 that really shouldn't be there.
LLoyd's NC was before BCS. Hence the coaches' poll championship for Nebraska.
Many of Lloyd's years were during the BCS, so in theory he could have played for a NC on the field rather than a theoretical matchup. Bo NEVER had that option because in that era #1 and #2 only played on paper or in the scheduled bowl matchup. Everyone prayed that the #1 would be such a clear #1 that there was no question, but often there was and that even lead to split championships.
Do I think Bo could have had more NC's than Lloyd if they both had the BCS available to them...yes.
Take out the outliers of both Bo's and Lloyd's records and see what you get.
Follow-up question: Why no love for Frank Solich? 75% winning, a Big 12 title and a national title game appearance in his first six seasons, better than both Devaney and Osborne. Do you Huskers consider Solich a legend?
More like a Gary Moeller, not a legend because he didn’t coach long enough to win a lot of games or titleseven though the wp was outstanding.
Speaking strictly as an outsider seems to me Lloyd accomplished quite a lot with several BT and one National title and won over a 100 games. No one was as close to Bo’s level in the modern era.
My main point is maybe both Michigan and Nebraska fan bases have been spoiled by their legendary coaches, guilty of hubris and can learn something from the downturn of fortune that followed. Not sure what Wolverine fans consider "success" for RR and future coaches but Nebraska fans have a new attitude about coach Pellini winning 9-10 games.
and just because he had no NCs, doesn't mean he didn't deserve a few. Voters were, and are a finicky breed, and officials and our "one team bowl policy" kept some of his best teams from even playing at the end of the regular season.
As a braska fan, you know better than anyone how tough it is to win a NC, and in your case more than anyone, the saying about getting the right bounces speaks very loudly.
The reason Bo was a legend before he retired is because he returned Michigan to the standard it hadn't seen since Crisler. Carr merely inherited it and although he did a wonderful job of handling the changes Moeller had made offensively, its very difficult to gain the status one gains when he pulls off possibly the biggest upset in college football and immediately places the program back to significance. That '69 victory wiped out the the memory completely of the three losses he suffered. in his inaugural campaign.
You point out the similarities of their winning percentages, but I don't think you grasp the fact that Carr had far more talent than Bo did. If anyone ever hurt themselves by being ultra careful in recruiting, i.e., character issues, etc., it was Bo. If there was a question in this regard, no matter how minute, the kid wasn't offered. He did some wonderful things with players names Mallory, Dufek, Cannavino, etc., that never were going to play in the NFL.
And his teams never took a pounding and avoided embarrassing losses, especially the costly types that were viewed by the entire nation. It was easy for the Michigan fan to acknowledge the level of grit and determination separating Bo coached teams from those that followed. I think, if given time, those days will return because although many think RR likes to play around at practice, fact is he demands as much physically from his team as Bo did.
Ultimately, I think the timing of RR and Brandon will be much like that of Bo and Canham with both understanding the need for autonomy for the respective positions of the other and being able to work harmoniously toward a common goal. I have a great feeling with just a modicum of patience, M fans will be rewarded greatly.
To be fair to RR, lets see how his system does when he has a bunch of juniors, seniors, and depth. It's hard for any coach to succeed with freshman, sophomores, walk ons, and players transferring. 2010 will be an improvement, i believe 8-4, and we shouldn't be disappointed with 8-4 because if Carr was still coaching we would consistantly be 7-5 or 8-4 every year. 2011 will be the return of michigan football and the return to new years day bowl games my friends.
The Lloyd/RR comparisons are meaningless at this point. RR still has a long way to go (hopefully).
coming to you from the inside!