OT: Anyone have undergrad experience with Brown and Penn? Compare vs Ross?

My nephew graduated Princeton a year ago, started on the football team while there, and achieved high marks in economics while earning a lot of attractive fluff and networking Wall Street. He has an insanely compelling personality and success drive.

Best offer neph received after graduating from Princeton with undergrad degree was an opportunity with a consulting firm in Dallas. He's acquiring business experience but the pay is low (circa $65k+ modest bonus while the CS majors I mentor at N'western start at $110k salary).

Focus on graduate programs post 3 years industry experience if your son wants a long-term high compensation career path. He'll likely need an impressive MBA or comparable degree with inside business experience and more than a little bit of luck. Speaking of which: good luck to you and yours, and don't worry so much about the inability to graduate Princeton UG.

Ross BBA is a very good program but it's pretty different than being an econ major at private liberal-arts type colleges.  We run them through lots of practical exercises and there are fewer opportunities to branch out into side disciplines; you can do econ and sociology, perhaps, at Brown, but not easily at Ross.  On the other hand, by the time you graduate Ross you will be excruciatingly experienced at working in groups, business writing, analysis, interviewing, etc.

Having been in both environments, I always feel that,  if there is not a huge $ difference, you should always go to the best school that will have you.  In many cases that will be Michigan, even if not Ross.  The really hard skills to find in employees these days are people skills and critical thinking skills.  Analytical skills of many sorts risk being replaced by some dude with a fancy algorithm.

Downside risk of Ross:  if he doesn't like it, it is harder to change to something else.  It's a hard culture to break way from.  It is pretty intense and the students, although enthused to be here, do experience a lot of stress.   

Remember that some % of the entering class opts into Ross at the END of freshman year - if your kid isn't sure, he can take a year to explore, make sure he has key Ross pre-reqs (mostly calc and econ), and then make a judgment call.  

EDITED TO ADD:  If you are wondering about the practicality of an Ivy degree, I should just point out that I have a comparative religion undergraduate degree from Harvard, and yet ended up a business professor.  It's sounds like a sure recipe for unemployment but it wasnt.  ALSO, in many cases it is cheaper to go to one of the better-funded Ivies than to UM, since most of them cover full financial need WITHOUT LOANS, so you get out of your undergrad without debt.  I don't know for sure if this is the case at Brown but I suspect so.

If finance is the route he wants to go I would strongly push for Penn over the others - all things being equal. He should look hard at where the alumni end up at each place he's considering because the connections he makes through the alumni network will be worth their weight in gold. Especially at a place like Penn.

Having said, the small elite liberal arts schools would also be strong for finance. Bowdoin is a hell of a school but almost no one knows about it....have a strong alumni in finance. Ditto Middlebury College assuming cost is not a factor. 

Should also consider Dartmouth if applying to Duke and Penn and of course, Stanford if he wants any silicon valley PE exposure. They are king for that type of career.

Finally, this is what I love about this blog. Look at the advice you can get here from SO MANY posters. There's no other place like it....

OP:

How much is in the trust? :)

In addition to all the other suggestions here, I think you need to do an (unscientific, to be sure) ROI calculation with the Ivies (and Duke). Specifically, you need to decide whether the networking value of being in Club Ivy (second tier thereof, anyway) would be worth the extra tuition.

Will your son be able to run with that crowd socially? If so, it might be worth the extra money. It's not that you can't meet interesting and well-connected people at / through Ross. It's just that your odds might be better at Brown / Penn.

Two stand out-most people don't do enough visits to schools.  Best way to find out the type of atmosphere and vibe you are looking for, and go below the surface tour.  Do midweek with an overnight stay if possible.  Many high schools, mine included, excuse college visit absences.  Talk to your principal or counselor.  Every year, we have numerous kids on visits either hate a school they thought they would love or vice-versa.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, never be sticker-shocked away from applying to a school. Many of them find very creative ways to help lessen the burden dramatically.  Private schools have more latitude in this area, but it applies in some measure to all.  Worst case is that you get in, they don't help enough, and you say no thanks and go somewhere else.

Grew up next to Brown, went to UM, work in academia. 

Basically, your professors will be higher profile in their fields at UM, but you will get more attention from your professors at Brown. You *can* get attention from your professors at UM, but unless you're in a seminar, you'll have to make sure they know who you are. This is doable, but not every kid wants to put in the work to make it happen. So a motivated, independent student will thrive at UM, but a kid who needs a bit more guidance will do better at Brown. 

Beyond that, Ann Arbor is a nicer place to go to college than Providence, though Providence is a more exciting place to be a 20-something or 30-something than Ann Arbor. Campus life is way better at UM; weather is way better in Providence. 

At a graduate school level, there's no contest: UM is a worldclass research institution; Brown is not. 

Ross is a fine degree, but undergraduate business degrees (even Wharton, somewhat) are looked down on by east coast employers.  If your kid wants to do anything finance-related odds are he's going to be on the east coast.  The other issue is that nothing you learn at Ross isn't taught in year one of b-school, which is where most paths lead to anyways.  My wife was a womens studies major at top liberal arts college and had a really scary first month at business school... but by month 6 she'd caught up.

Other than Ross this isn't even a conversation.  UM is viewed as a safety school for kids at the top prep schools back east.   Brown or Penn are good solid outcomes.  Not same ballpark.

I'll put it this way:  my pops went to UM, and did well there, and we had the money so I could pick, and he told me he'd put a bullet through my head if I got into an ivy and passed it up to go to UM. 

None of this has any relationship to the quality of education you receive at either school, which is entirely dependent on what your son puts into it and is world-class either way.  But what you're buying from an Ivy is a more prestigous resume that opens more doors and don't fool yourself into thinking that UM is competitive with that outside of Michigan and maybe Chicago.

Nothing beats an ivy education.

I went to Brown as an undergrad in the early 80s and got a PhD from Michigan in 1990, working as a TA and instructor in several undergrad courses in history and American Culture.  I think it's a close call, especially accounting for the price difference, but I'd ultimately recommend Brown, with one caveat -- your son should be enthusiastic about the academic culture there, particularly the "New Curriculum."  If he doesn't love what makes Brown unique, he shouldn't go there.

The best thing about Brown is that the students there embrace having academic autonomy.  It's a great school if you're inquisitive, open to new and different ideas, and willing to take responsibility for your own intellectual direction.  Students work hard (the "less rigorous" comment from one of the posts above is just ignorant), and just about everyone is prepared for every class.  This makes discussions active and interesting, and students end up learning from each other as much as from the faculty. You'll meet a great variety of interesting and talented people, and almost everyone is unpretentious.

Michigan has many students who are just as smart and engaged as those at Brown, and Michigan provides undergrad instruction at the highest level in many classes -- but not all of them.  There are many students who are more interested in partying and football than in studying, and there are a lot of courses that are just average.  If you pick the right courses and hang out with the right people, Michigan is just as good an any Ivy.  If you aren't very selective about your courses, you will wind up in classes with many students who don't work that hard and don't care that much about academics and intellectual life for its own sake.  You'll sit through a lot of discussion sections that are a waste of time, and you may not discover the interesting stuff about the subject matter because your classmates just don't care that much.  

It's much easier to skate through Michigan without making much of an effort than it is to get through Brown.  To be sure, you can find an easy path at either school.  But there are more easy paths at Michigan.

Bottom line:  you will probably have a great intellectual experience at Brown even by accident.  You will have to work much harder to find it at Michigan.  

Having said all of that, if your son is sure that he wants to focus on business school (or business school style classes) as an undergrad, don't go to Brown.  It's not a good school for anyone who is hyper-focused on a single academic field or on a career-oriented field. 

My perception is that all of the top-tier schools provide exceptional opportunities for education. Once you get away from academia the differences come down to brand recognition and networking. 

Stanford, Harvard, Princeton and to a slightly lesser extent Columbia and Yale will be recognized anywhere you go in the world.  Those brands provide credibility that translates to opportunities to do what you want.

Brown, Cornell, Penn, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. have less of a global brand, but provide the same benefits as above on the East Coast or South.  These schools also have specific reputations -  for example Penn = Finance, Cornell = HR, Dartmouth = Animal House.  

I went to an MIAA school for undergrad and grad school at Columbia.

East coaster lifer here.  There seems to be a "grass is always greener" mentality in some of these posts.  Maybe there was a day where an Ivy degree would give you "protection" or "insurance" (i.e. that ever important foot in the door), but it's less true nowadays IMO.  Finance is now very quant. oriented, so in a way there's not much difference between working on Wall Street compared to Silicon Valley.  To get a foot in the door you need quant. skill sets regardless of where you went to school, the only exceptions between HYPS. 

Just anecdotal, but I have a bunch of friends who went to the "lower" Ivyies like Cornell and Brown, ended up with arts degrees, and wound up having to go to B-School (paying their own way no less) after working dead end jobs.  By contrast, I also have a bunch of friends who went to average schools like Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers and UConn, but graduated with quant. degrees like engineering, who ended up doing quite well.

Another observation is to compare undergrad with grad school.  For example, if you want to be a doctor, medical school is far more important than where you went to college.  I have a bunch of friends who "gamed" the system by attending an "easy" undergrad school so they could pad their GPA and spend more time studying for the MCAT.  For a lot of them it worked. 

So the bottom line is:  Choose the school that has a program in a field you're interested in, and be strategic about your decisions if you want to enter professional programs down the line.

He won't want to hear it . . . I didn't . . .  but if he is really interested in a Business School like Ross or Wharton, he is better off NOT doing business-specific school as an undergrad, but doing something else (Economics is OK) at a prestigious undergrad, then getting some real-life work experience, then getting an MBA at a top school that pays off like Ross or Wharton.

Yes, that's a lot of planning and thinking ahead for a high school kid, but it's an optimal path to high-level executive level positions down the road if that's where he wants to go.

I was surprised when I graduated Ross (just Michigan Business School at the time) how "regional" even the top MBA programs still were.

Yes they get company recruiters from all over the nation, but the core of recruiters are still from the region the school is in.

There is a lot of competition for those top national spots, so it's not a gurantee you are going to get one.  You are still more likely to end up in that regional core of companies unless you have an absolutely killer background.

So the bottom line is, if you have your heart set on living and working in the east coast for example, you may be better off looking at top east coast schools. 

You have been getting pretty sound advice but the best is probably to go ahead and check out these other schools, whether they are the Ivies or the NESCAC or others. Something may click for your son that he never thought of before he did a tour. Here's my humble opinion:

- all colleges have a net price calculator on their website. Few people pay full price; if you make less than $150K, an ivy or private liberal arts college will likely cost less than in-state UM tuition.

-Some in the midwest may not have heard of Bowdoin, Colby, Williams but grad school admissions certainly have any any employer worth working for has, too.For what it is worth, when I say I went to Michigan, people ususally ask Michigan State? The Spartans?

- The most valuable part of my U of M education was that it was 500 miles from home. Have your son consider going to a place that is different from where he grew up. That will be the most valuable and memorable part of his education. Afterall, he is going to college to be educated, not trained.

- The classes at the small liberal arts schools are taught 100% by professors. The professors research is done by undergrads. Almost all the classes have fewer than 15 students. Your son will be in touch with his professsors for life. Consider that when calculating an ROI.

-It is hard to find school spirit quite like Michigan. Being at a place where everyone loves the school is a huge factor.

- I have heard from business school professors that an undergrad business degree is perceived less favorably than an undergrad Economics degree. Likely the most valuable path for the long term is liberal arts undergrad (from a top college or university), work experience then on to a top grad school.

- Have your son consider a semester studying abroad and ask what percent of students study abroad.

My girlfriend goes to Penn for law school and I'm up there pretty much every weekend.  Academically, sure, the entire university is great. But, I hate it. I wouldn't want my kid to go there.  It doesn't seem like a very interesting or fun place to go to school. It doesn't have the feel of most colleges  and the campus also isn't particularly nice. Most of the students seem like awful rich kids and the university gladly caters to them (they have a freaking luxury dorm there). And I won't even get into the university administration's subpar handling of mental health crises on campus. 

My girlfriend graduates in May and I can't wait to not go there anymore.  Sorry to dump on it so hard.

Also, Donald Trump went to Wharton and he can barely read. Therefore, I'm not impressed with it. I know, neg away for politics, but it had to be said.

Ross or Penn (not Wharton)? If he doesn't want or can't get into Wharton, Ross is not that different.

If he is a senior, he need to wrap up essays, recommendations, common app, scores by now. Things are so competitive now for programs like Ross and early application is the way to go. Make connections with school recruiters, admission officers, coaches if applicable, connected alums especially with Ivies, et al.

Where does HE want to go? What is important to him? Is he outgoing (leave the midwest) or an introvert?

It's okay not to know what one wants to major in but then don't go to a program like Ross if you aren't passionate. Passion equals excellence and usually results in happiness (which is not always the highest paying job).

Culture - big school vrs small, collaborative vrs intensely competitive students, east coast vrs midwest, rich kids vrs middle class, social life, etc. etc. The only way to know this is to visit the school.

Talk to as many grads and current students to get a real feel for what the school is REALLY like.

I'm a Ross grad (MBA) and still think business is a masters degree to be combined with another discipline undergrad such as Industrial Engineering.

U of M has a big advantage over most schools besides the obvious in state tuition - diversity of programs. Most kids will switch their majors so then what? 

For every kid the answers are different and correct for them. I've got one at UM and one at Caltech - both were their top choices, both are really happy and you couldn't have two more different top flight educational experiences.

Good luck to your son.